A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Reverend]

Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the framing device for this story, it took long enough for Sheridan and Delenn to get together so I'm not interested in seeing this sort of artificial road-block being thrown up now. Anna was an interesting road-block because her interference was based on the past emotions and decisions of the characters, whereas this is some Minbari speciesists that have come from nowhere and are trying to dictate what Delenn should do with her life. Darned socialists!

Not quite out of nowhere. This wasn't just some random racist pressure group, it's her clan and her family and by tradition (Minbari have lots of those) they do have a say on the union of their members. I think it's already been pretty well established that Minbari elders are an interfering bunch.

I hope that she does tell him one day and that this thread isn't left hanging, it would be far more interesting to watch Sheridan's reaction to Delenn's role in the near-extermination of his species than Lennier's.

I don't think it's a spoiler to say that she never does tell him, at least not on screen. Either way it's never directly touched on again, aside from the odd mention of her being there at the first contact.

Getting back to the movies: I think it's now officially "safe" to watch 'In the Beginning' from this point on. The movie includes snippets of footage from this show as well as a few others that gave a glimpse as the war ('Revelations', 'And the Sky Full of Stars' & 'A Late Delivery from Avalon' if memory serves.) I don't think there's anything that would spoil what you have yet to view.

 

[Lindley]

There's one line at the end which technically qualifies as a spoiler for "Rising Star", but eh. Not that big a detail.

I still say ITB works better as a series bookend though.

 

[David cgc]

Well, some people have an issue with

Spoiler: issue

Londo saying Sheridan "became president of an Alliance.

Personally, I chalk the entire movie up to "foreshadowing," so I don't have a problem with showing it early any more than I would with showing "Midnight on the Firing Line," as it spoils Londo and G'Kar's deaths.

 

[Jan]

Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the framing device for this story, it took long enough for Sheridan and Delenn to get together so I'm not interested in seeing this sort of artificial road-block being thrown up now. Anna was an interesting road-block because her interference was based on the past emotions and decisions of the characters, whereas this is some Minbari speciesists that have come from nowhere and are trying to dictate what Delenn should do with her life. Darned socialists!

Not quite out of nowhere. This wasn't just some random racist pressure group, it's her clan and her family and by tradition (Minbari have lots of those) they do have a say on the union of their members. I think it's already been pretty well established that Minbari elders are an interfering bunch.

Given that it was established early on that the actions of each individual clan member can reflect on the entire clan, it's not surprising that the elders keep a tight rein on their members. I'm sure that some of them weren't pleased about her change but that was supposed to be at the behest of the Grey Council so there wasn't much they could say about that.

Jan

 

[stj]

Socialists are supposed to abolish marriage and hold the women in common. Arranged or approved marriages are a conservative thing. The Minbari religious are portrayed as being innately religious, whose numerous rituals and prophecies work. That too is a conservative thing, socialists being godless atheists.

There are many political aspects to Babylon 5's main storyline.

 

[Reverend]

There's one line at the end which technically qualifies as a spoiler for "Rising Star", but eh. Not that big a detail.

I still say ITB works better as a series bookend though.

Well, some people have an issue with

Spoiler: issue

Londo saying Sheridan "became president of an Alliance.

Personally, I chalk the entire movie up to "foreshadowing," so I don't have a problem with showing it early any more than I would with showing "Midnight on the Firing Line," as it spoils Londo and G'Kar's deaths.

Of course you can debate all kinds of viewing orders and that's all for the good; I was just raising the figurative "spoiler safe flag" on each of the movies. As for that bit from 'Rising Star'...

Spoiler: Londo and G'Kar's adopted pak'ma'ra love child

I think, out of context that line could just get away with being taken as a reference to the informal alliance formed in the Shadow War. Of course he does say "President of a great Alliance" which may tip things off a little. Still not a huge revelation.

Socialists are supposed to abolish marriage and hold the women in common. Arranged or approved marriages are a conservative thing. The Minbari religious are portrayed as being innately religious, whose numerous rituals and prophecies work. That too is a conservative thing, socialists being godless atheists.

There are many political aspects to Babylon 5's main storyline.

I really wouldn't try reading any more into that than what's already there. Assigning human ideologies to non-human cultures isn't likely to give you much in they way of insight, quite the contrary.

As for the Religious Caste having a system of rituals and prophecy that "works", I should point out the latter is only true because their main prophet was actually from the future and they're not liable to be getting any new prophecies any time soon. As far as the rituals go, they're essentially a rigid framework around which the Religious Castes can live their lives in service. For me, the slightly worrying side effect of that type of arrangement is that it can somewhat stunt the ability to think for oneself. Though I suppose a Minbari might argue it in fact focuses the ability to think.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Socialists are supposed to abolish marriage and hold the women in common. Arranged or approved marriages are a conservative thing. The Minbari religious are portrayed as being innately religious, whose numerous rituals and prophecies work. That too is a conservative thing, socialists being godless atheists.

There are many political aspects to Babylon 5's main storyline.

I really wouldn't try reading any more into that than what's already there.

Besides, TheGodBen was probably being facetious anyway. You wouldn't take his Scott Bakula comments serious as well.

 

[Reverend]

What? Are you suggesting Scott Bakula didn't guest star in almost every B5 episode?!

 

[stj]

My tongue has not completely escaped the cheek.

But, Minbari never kill Minbari. That's not just religion as moral exhortation, it's religion which succeeds in adjusting the personality with its teachings. I tried to rationalize it that the castes were outright subspecies, whose psychologies possessed innate differences. It's always a shock to be reminded that JMS imagined a universe in which religious conversion actually made people better. Truly, this is science fiction!

Given the existence of telepaths and Centauri prophetesses, it is highly unlikely that the only prophecies are those Valen got from his life as Sinclair.

While watching the show, I'd speculated that the humans and Minbari were the pet Vorlon project, whose hybridization would produce the perfect species, complete with psychic powers. The Centauri and the Narns were the pet Shadow project, one with telepaths and seers, the other with none, locked into mortal combat until the victor emerges as the perfect Shadow race.

The idea was inspired by the oddity of humans and Minbari being able to eat the same food, as can Centauri and Narns (the fearsome "spoo" in their case.) In terrestrial ecology, living on the same food makes the different species competitors for the niche.

 

[sidious618]

Atonement is a rather loved episode AFAIK but I agree with TGB. It's not bad but it sure isn't one of my favorites and I find it to be one of the few "meh" episodes in season four (possibly the only one come to think of it).

 

[Hound of UIster]

My tongue has not completely escaped the cheek.

But, Minbari never kill Minbari.

Actually they do kill each other, but in these cases such as ritual duels, the blame is shouldered entirely by the victim.

 

[Reverend]

My tongue has not completely escaped the cheek.

But, Minbari never kill Minbari. That's not just religion as moral exhortation, it's religion which succeeds in adjusting the personality with its teachings. I tried to rationalize it that the castes were outright subspecies, whose psychologies possessed innate differences. It's always a shock to be reminded that JMS imagined a universe in which religious conversion actually made people better. Truly, this is science fiction!

Given the existence of telepaths and Centauri prophetesses, it is highly unlikely that the only prophecies are those Valen got from his life as Sinclair.

While watching the show, I'd speculated that the humans and Minbari were the pet Vorlon project, whose hybridization would produce the perfect species, complete with psychic powers. The Centauri and the Narns were the pet Shadow project, one with telepaths and seers, the other with none, locked into mortal combat until the victor emerges as the perfect Shadow race.

The idea was inspired by the oddity of humans and Minbari being able to eat the same food, as can Centauri and Narns (the fearsome "spoo" in their case.) In terrestrial ecology, living on the same food makes the different species competitors for the niche.

The Centauri prophetic talent is, I'd say a unique feature of the species. Perhaps the Vorlons were experimenting with different types of metasensory abilities and the Centauri got DNA from the Nephalim that did well on instant lottery tickets.

As for the Minbari; have you ever heard of ANY Minbari prophecy that wasn't credited specifically to Valen?

I don't think the Vorlons had a specific idea that the Humans and Minbari needed to bump ugliest to breed a race of super-psychic-ninjas, that was more of a by product of the whole Valen/Sector 14/Triluminary thing. Plus of course the fact that humans and Minbari can't actually mate and produce offspring. The only reason it worked at all is because one of the breeding pair have had their DNA altered, specifically to make them compatible.

I will say though that it is pretty clearly established in the Greg Keyes novels and short story that the human telepaths were most defiantly the Vorlons' pride and joy and they had much bigger plans for them. The plans were cut a little short of course, thanks to IPX poking around Syria Planum.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Narn's had telepaths, but the telepaths were all killed. No genes to pass on - at least strong enough genes.
(see "Dust to Dust", S3),

 

[TheGodBen]

Racing Mars (***½)

Poor Sheridan. He takes his first holiday in a long time and all that ends up happening is that he can't watch TV, he gets punched in the face and he has awkward sex. Actually, it sounds a lot like my last holiday.

So, Sheridan and Delenn finally consummate their relationship. Maybe. Knowing the Minbari and their rituals, "exploring one another's pleasure centres" probably involves the explorer wearing a radiation suit. As for Sheridan's "Woohoo!", considering the fact that there's no holodecks in the B5-verse and that the adult channel has been shut down for a year, just seeing Delenn's bra was probably enough for him to give that reaction. He's also ashamed by the prospect of having sex while people listen through the thin walls from the other room, thereby proving that he never went to college.

Meanwhile, Garibaldi has joined an anti-Sheridan group. You know you've made it to the big time when you have a group of people that hate you. Also, I'm not entirely sure that Garibaldi is acting normally. I think that maybe, just maybe, something happened to him when he disappeared.

On the other side of the galaxy, Marcus and Franklin get married in a beautiful ceremony performed by Captain Jack, but they don't consummate their marriage, much to Marcus' disappointment. Although the religious conservatives appear to be right, gay marriage will lead to the destruction of our freedoms, just look what happened to Earth under President Clark. Speaking of Clark, is it possible that he has been altered by one of these parasites that seems to have infected the Centauri Regent guy, and which one day will infect Londo? Because that would make a lot of sense and explain his lack of motivation so far.

Scott Bakula: 55

 

[Can]

Racing Mars (***½)

Poor Sheridan. He takes his first holiday in a long time and all that ends up happening is that he can't watch TV, he gets punched in the face and he has awkward sex. Actually, it sounds a lot like my last holiday.

So, Sheridan and Delenn finally consummate their relationship. Maybe. Knowing the Minbari and their rituals, "exploring one another's pleasure centres" probably involves the explorer wearing a radiation suit. As for Sheridan's "Woohoo!", considering the fact that there's no holodecks in the B5-verse and that the adult channel has been shut down for a year, just seeing Delenn's bra was probably enough for him to give that reaction. He's also ashamed by the prospect of having sex while people listen through the thin walls from the other room, thereby proving that he never went to college.

Meanwhile, Garibaldi has joined an anti-Sheridan group. You know you've made it to the big time when you have a group of people that hate you. Also, I'm not entirely sure that Garibaldi is acting normally. I think that maybe, just maybe, something happened to him when he disappeared.

On the other side of the galaxy, Marcus and Franklin get married in a beautiful ceremony performed by Captain Jack, but they don't consummate their marriage, much to Marcus' disappointment. Although the religious conservatives appear to be right, gay marriage will lead to the destruction of our freedoms, just look what happened to Earth under President Clark. Speaking of Clark, is it possible that he has been altered by one of these parasites that seems to have infected the Centauri Regent guy, and which one day will infect Londo? Because that would make a lot of sense and explain his lack of motivation so far.

Scott Bakula: 55

"Adult Channel unavailable due to jamming" now that's a big problem really I can't imagine living without one

Garibaldi's slide to dark side opens up interesting possibilities right TGB ? You do not see that kind of character devlopment in space usually

Marcus and Stephen were just funny together....though most of the humour comes from Marcus himlf , Dr. Franklin just reacts....

Clark's motivations are simple and obvious....He ( and his regime ) is just a representative of xenaphophia out of control back Earth. He had been stating this with "needs of our people" speech just after Santiago's assasination. Earth was going on this road with xenaphophia and fear , paranoia since beginning....

 

[Reverend]

You're right in that Clark's personal motivations are never directly addressed, but you can pretty much piece it together from his policies. He's a xenophobe, he's power hungry and he managed to get the backing of a certain rather powerful but shadowy group within Earthgov.
I think Crusade was going to address them a little more directly, but there's all sorts of connections made in the Psi Corps novels that link Clark with the Syria Planum excavation, Earthforce's New Technologies and Bio-weapons divisions, the upper management of of IPX, certain senators, industrialists and of course elements within Psi Corps. Still, it all probably just comes down to a collective desire for power.

Part of the reason we never really know what the baddies are up to is because JMS made a conscious decision to keep it mostly from the main characters' perspective. Which I think is a good idea since it's not really that important and it'd get a little silly having the odd scene with Clark sat around his big table at Earthdome with Bester, Morden, Skeletor and Lex Luthor, plotting their next evil scheme. DS9 is a little guilty of this and I think they ended up making Dukat and Weyoun more interesting to watch than the likes of Sisko, which doesn't do the show any favours.

...there's no holodecks in the B5-verse...

Technically true, but not entierly. You'll see when you get around a certain B5 movie I shan't mention. I don't want to spoil the surprise, but you get to see Corwin eagerly demonstrating how he uses his 'love-bat'...(SO not kidding!)

On the other side of the galaxy, Marcus and Franklin get married in a beautiful ceremony performed by Captain Jack, but they don't consummate their marriage, much to Marcus' disappointment.

I rather like how the show managed to sidle past things that, at the time, Star Trek couldn't even touch and get away with it. By making a joke out of it they basically said that sexual orientation, marriage etc. is a non-issue for 23rd century humans without ever having to have a "message" show on the subject. BSG did it too, but about a decade later. Trek pretended to address it, but got out of it on a Trill technicality.

 

[Forbin]

"Marcus, this is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot."

 

[Aeon]

Poor Sheridan. He takes his first holiday in a long time and all that ends up happening is that he can't watch TV, he gets punched in the face and he has awkward sex. Actually, it sounds a lot like my last holiday.

Sounds awfully familiar.

 

[stonester1]

"Adult Channel unavailable due to jamming" now that's a big problem really I can't imagine living without one

Which is why I never see teh internets replacing the DVD collection.

 

[lennier1]

"Adult Channel unavailable due to jamming" now that's a big problem really I can't imagine living without one

Which is why I never see teh internets replacing the DVD collection.

Isn't that a Crusade spoiler?