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Dear Pixar, From All The Girls With Band-Aids On Their Knees

Which brings up another problem with the nothing is political unless you make it so position, which is that it is intellectually bankrupt. Movies and such are not as objective as the laws of nature, but mere thinking doesn't make anything so, not even in esthetic criticism. The problem that this position seeks to evade is criticizing some works as confused and incoherent; escaping from the conscious control of the artist; dishonest and/or evasive. It makes one wonder what one could say about anything except, "I liked it" or "I didn't like it." But that kind do seem to go on, anyhow.

I think you missed Camelopard's point. Whatever meaning something has it not intrinsic, it is assigned by those experiencing it. It doesn't even matter what the writer, director, or actors intended, if the public at large sees the exact opposite in it. Everyone will have their own interpretation. You could make the case that some pieces of art better communicate their intentions than others, but it doesn't stop people from finding whatever meaning they want in it.

Camelopard, I wish you'd been around for some of my past threads on this subject. It's interesting to watch people debate as to whether art has intrinsic meaning or if meaning is going to be fluid and individual.
 
I understood the point perfectly well. The point's wrong, is all. It's kissing cousin to the old saw, "Perception is reality."

Satan is not the hero of Paradise Lost, regardless of whether later generations had a desire to see him as the hero. The poem simply was not constructed with him as the hero, even if Milton's ambiguity about rebels made him give the devil his due. The poem ends with theodicy, not Satan's tragedy. Milton's theodicy may no longer carry conviction, leaving the poem more honored than read, but that's not the same thing as being a poem with Satan as the hero.

But suppose by a freak of nature, the meaning of Paradise Lost was imbued by the reader. It's a long poem, twelve books if I recall correctly. Surely, each book was imbued with meaning during the long reading process, no? And each scene in each book, too? And for that matter, each line, right? Of course, each line was composed word by word, and in the process of reading each line has the added meaning of each word. Except everyone knows that words have their meanings given, not ascribed.

A work of art operates like new words, or the evolution of new meanings for old words: The user gives meaning by context. (Occasionally by formal definition.) The hearer/reader determines the meaning by interpreting the context. Loss of artistic control or dishonesty can leave the context contradicting the manifest meanings, but these are flaws in the artistry. Refusal to generalize from context, or selection from context is misinterpretation.

In religious art or monumental art in strongly hierarchical societies, the context is highly restrictive. In those cases, the notion that the reader/hearer/viewer is ascribing the meaning is patently absurd. The insistence that the artistic intent is irrelevant ignores the very existence of much of humanity's artistic work! I suggest there is a prescriptive intent, not a description of reality. The question is, what qualifies the proponents to prescribe?

That reminds me. Although no one gored the "art for art's sake" ox, we heard it bellowing anyhow. In the end, another aspect of art is simple decoration. That is the category "art for art's sake" falls into. Given that there is really no disputing taste (as opposed to meaning!) an announced taste or distaste for decoration/"art for art's sake" permits of no discussion. There is only the tacit presumption that same have good taste and others have bad taste. I suggest that in the end, this presumption reflects commitment to one's social milieu.
 
I could've sworn I saw this somewhere, but wasn't The Princess and the Frog originally conceived as just a regular girl and not a princess, but some minority special interest group got vocal about it so it was changed to princess?
 
I could've sworn I saw this somewhere, but wasn't The Princess and the Frog originally conceived as just a regular girl and not a princess, but some minority special interest group got vocal about it so it was changed to princess?
No, she was always going to become a princess. What changed was her prior occupation and her name; originally she was going to be a maid named Maddy. That got changed under protest to a waitress and Tiana.
 
Camelopard, I wish you'd been around for some of my past threads on this subject. It's interesting to watch people debate as to whether art has intrinsic meaning or if meaning is going to be fluid and individual.
Well, it's both, of course. All artists have intent, whether it's to enlighten, offend or simply entertain; all artists also have assumptions, many of which they are not conscious of. And the audience will interpret the final product based on their own individual perspective.

Also, there is no separating art from contemporaneous social mores (even if it's reactionary). The treatment of Blacks as comic foils and dimwits in 1930s movies was not done as a sociological statement but it makes a statement about society at that time.

I wonder how The Incredibles would have been received if the roles of the husband and wife had been reversed.
 
Not to take sides, but it's always surprised me that despite being such huge Miyazaki fans, Pixar's never done a film with a female lead.

I didn't think the OP's article was that bad. Not nearly as nasty as the crazy woman who ripped into Firefly way back when.
 
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^Not that I entierly disagree with that, but to be fair most Pixar films tend to be ensemble and there's usually at least one strong female character in there.

But as others have said, Pixar is about telling stories not ticking boxes and pandering to demographics. If they find a good story that happens to be centred around a female character then I'm sure they'll treat it the same as they would any other.
 
^Not that I entierly disagree with that, but to be fair most Pixar films tend to be ensemble and there's usually at least one strong female character in there.

But as others have said, Pixar is about telling stories not ticking boxes and pandering to demographics. If they find a good story that happens to be centred around a female character then I'm sure they'll treat it the same as they would any other.

Stories are created, not "found." It's not like Pixar bears no responsibility for creating its stories, and is merely the vessel by which a story is transferred to the rest of us. They have to actively create their stories. And so far, they have actively decided to make stories about men. That's a choice, not an accident.
 
Well if you want to get into semantics; technically they're mostly stories about toys, fish, monsters, insects, auto-mobiles and robots. Only two of their films are actually about humans and only one of those are about humans not imbued with fantastical super powers.

To my mind none of the films have anything to really do with a character's gender, one way or the other. You may as well point out that there's only one Black character (I think) in all of their films. It's irrelevant.
 
I love the Disney princess movies... mostly because my daughter loves the Disney princess movies.

I'd love to see more female protagonists in the Pixar movies, though. Mrs. Incredible and Violet were a good start.

Which kinda proves the point about all the complaining--if Violet and Mrs. Incredible (and EVE--don't forget EVE) don't count, what the hell does this woman want?
 
Well if you want to get into semantics; technically they're mostly stories about toys, fish, monsters, insects, auto-mobiles and robots.

All of which have been given male gender by their creators.

You may as well point out that there's only one Black character (I think) in all of their films. It's irrelevant.

I have earlier in this thread, and I think there's something wrong with Pixar only choosing to create one black character (and only a supporting one at that).

I love the Disney princess movies... mostly because my daughter loves the Disney princess movies.

I'd love to see more female protagonists in the Pixar movies, though. Mrs. Incredible and Violet were a good start.

Which kinda proves the point about all the complaining--if Violet and Mrs. Incredible (and EVE--don't forget EVE) don't count, what the hell does this woman want?

Female characters who are central characters rather than supporting characters, and who do not play into sexist stereotype roles such as the "princess."

I'm sorry, but The Incredibles wasn't actually about Mrs. Incredible or Violet -- it was about Mister Incredible. Wall-E was not about Eve -- it was about Wall-E. They were not the central characters.

Let's see a movie where the girl is the primary character and the guy is her supporting character. This can be done -- a prime example is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where men were always her supporting characters in the same way that women are usually men's supporting characters.
 
But as others have said, Pixar is about telling stories not ticking boxes and pandering to demographics. If they find a good story that happens to be centred around a female character then I'm sure they'll treat it the same as they would any other.
So again I ask: What prevented the roles of the husband and wife in The Incredibles from being reversed?
 
So again I ask: What prevented the roles of the husband and wife in The Incredibles from being reversed?
Well you'd have to ask them, but I imagine it's at least partly because typically it's the husband that has the mid-life crisis while the wife that tries to hold the family together. They were after all specifically playing with archetypes.

I have earlier in this thread, and I think there's something wrong with Pixar only choosing to create one black character (and only a supporting one at that).
Why exactly? I mean they've had clown fish, invertebrates and artificial lifeforms, how much more racially diverse can you get? You might as well get mad because they've under-represented Eskimos.
 
I have earlier in this thread, and I think there's something wrong with Pixar only choosing to create one black character (and only a supporting one at that).

Why exactly?

Because for a lot of these characters, there's no reason for them to be white; they're just white for the sake of being white. And as I've said time and time again in this thread, when an artist only creates characters that are members of the dominant group within society, that artist is only re-enforcing the nominativity of that dominant group and thereby constructing a narrative that supports that dominance.

I mean they've had clown fish, invertebrates and artificial lifeforms, how much more racially diverse can you get?

Some black folks in central roles would be a good start.
 
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