Did Jacob time travel?

[Morpheus 02]

Just wondering...when did the whole time shifting occur? Wasn't it BEFORE Jacob's death? If so, was Jacob affected? And if so, how?

Did he do anything different, or find out any info, or maybe pass on some info to his younger self, in order to make the "right' decision?

 

[Brent]

I never gathered that he time traveled, only the Losties.

For that matter though, I have a bigger question, how does Time Traveling fit into the whole thing? The heart of the Island, with a special wheel, can apparently move the island and people through time. Why and how and why did the Losties have to go through that? Christian (the MIB) wanted the wheel to be turned, but to what purpose did THAT serve him?

 

[Delta1]

It served the purpose of getting John Locke off the island, so he could convince the other candidates to return and then die and his corpse be returned and he could take the form of John Locke, who because he had met Richard in the 1950s was the one person most likely to usurp Ben, and could convince Ben to kill Jacob and then he could contrive to kill the remaining candidates and get off the island.

Why he didn't just sit down with Ben and tell him, "If you kill Jacob and everyone on his list you can rule the island," I don't know. It's not like Ben wasn't ultimately up to the task.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I never gathered that he time traveled, only the Losties.

I'm not sure this was ever cleared up but yes it seemed only the survivors moved through time physically(which was different from the other incidents of time travel where only the conscious moved). However, the island disappeared too as we saw in the season 4 finale. I always saw the island as integrating into the island of whatever time period they ended up in and for that brief amount of time that was what space-time it was occupying.

And we know Jacob and Smokey were aware of where all the survivors were during each time jump since Smokey knew that Locke would fall down the well and Jacob was able to tell Hurley to take mortally wounded Sayid to where Jin was in the Rousseau/88 time jump. And since Smokey was down there in the wheel cavern and they were clearly not in the present he must have been able to move through time as well. It also makes you wonder if like the Prophets on DS9 Smokey when he as chasing Rousseau, her team and Jin if he was aware of it as well. And I always saw the wheel itself as existing outside of normal space-time so that whichever time period the island integrated to the whel was always in the last condition it was when Ben turned it--off its axis wobbling about--otherwise it would have looked stationary and in place.

For that matter though, I have a bigger question, how does Time Traveling fit into the whole thing? The heart of the Island, with a special wheel, can apparently move the island and people through time. Why and how and why did the Losties have to go through that? Christian (the MIB) wanted the wheel to be turned, but to what purpose did THAT serve him?

Locke was special and seemed to have a connection with the island which made Ben jealous. Worse yet, Ben takes Locke to Jacob's cabin only to have Jacob appear and call out to Locke leading to Ben's first attempt on Locke's life. Then "Christian" who was really Smokey tells Locke to move the island--well John doesn't know how--Smokey knows this and knows ultimately it will be Ben who does it making John the Others leader now. So Smokey has softened up Ben to where he kills John, John's body is returned to the island, everyone thinks the dead can come back to life on the island so they don't bat an eye except Ben. Smokey can only take the form of someone who is dead(another plot contrivance) and now can take his rightful place as the Others leader allowing him to order Richard and the Others, who will follow his orders, to take him to Jacob who he already knows is at the statue.

But before that Smokey needs to make sure Ben doesn't make an attempt on his life since Smokey knows Ben still wants John dead. Hence why he brought Ben to the outer temple and made him confront Smokey, who at the time we didn't know was impersonating Locke. Smokey lets him live since he needs Ben to kill Jacob but to give Ben one last fright to make sure he didn't try to kill "Locke" he appeared as Alex. Or that was what I thought at first but season six changed that,

So the purpose of appearing as Alex was so that Smokey could remind what Ben had sacrificed for the island and Jacob and to be so shabbily treated by Jacob just made him all the more eager to do Smokey's bidding. As well as to make sure Ben did what "Locke" told him.

But this sorta begs the question if as we learn Jacob controls who leaves and comes to the island why let the Six get home. Jacob's omniscience seemed to be what ever the needs of the particular episode was but he did seem to know coming events--such as the war he told Widmore of, or the ankh he put in Hurley's guitar case with the names of the people in it--but if he knew his death was coming at the hands of Ben--enough that he got in touch with Widmore to send him to the island with failsafe Desmond and have Ilana assemble her team before the end of season 4 why did he not stop Smokey. I guess it is all part of the ill-defined mysterious Rules that prevented either side from directly getting involved and only using proxies like FG did with the Suliban on ENT. I also suppose Jacob like Mother just saw death as a release and was tired of protecting the island.

 

[Agent Richard07]

I think everyone who was in the present when the island was moved travelled through time, so Jacob would have time-shifted as well.

 

[McCoy]

I'd sure like to see someone put together a timeline on MiB's long con. I think there may be evidence of it in almost every episode of the series.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I think everyone who was in the present when the island was moved travelled through time, so Jacob would have time-shifted as well.

That wasn't the case--if you'll remember in the season four finale when the white light we would come to associate with a time shift occured for the very first time--John was joining up with Richard and the Others then the flash and he was by himself. If they moved with him then why was he by himself?

 

[Agent Richard07]

^ I'll have to take back what I said then. I don't remember every detail of the show.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I'd sure like to see someone put together a timeline on MiB's long con. I think there may be evidence of it in almost every episode of the series.

Well at first I thought Ben might have been working with Smokey all along to get rid of John for Ben and get rid of Jacob for MIB. This first came to me in "The Shape of Things to Come" when Ben, after the assault by Keamey, just out of the blue says that Hurley, John and he must go to Jacob at the cabin and that he would know what to do to protect the island. Well back then you think Christian is really Jacob's intermediary. Then in Season Five's finale when Ilana says someone has taken over the cabin and burns it down and you realize that Christian was Alex who was Locke was actually the MIB because at that time we didn't know he was also smokey until season six then it changed how you viewed everything.

Then I didn't think Ben was working with him given the way MIB manipulated Ben--that wouldn't have been necessary if they were working together. Ben was just as shocked to see Locke was dead and "Locke" transform into Smokey at the statue. And since we know Ben never met Jacob how did Ben think the cabin was where to find Jacob? Was it just a ruse by Ben? I doubt Richard shared with Ben where Jacob was so did Ben just decide to lead Locke out to this this old rickety secluded shack that Horace built out in the woods for his wife(afterall he had to have known of it given he was a part of Dharma) then kill Locke but Ben didn't realize there was a force out there--MIB--who knew what Ben was up to and in "The Man Behind the Curtain" decided to put his master plan into motion with the supernatural display of creepiness for Ben and Locke. And then everything flowed from there.

Now Ben really thinks Jacob is at this cabin so he decides to go there when the island is under attack by Widmore in "The Shape of Things to Come", MIB knows John, Hurley and Ben are coming, MIB as "Christian" tells John to move the island and the rest is history. MIB as "Christian" tells John before he turns the wheel to find Eloise and tell his son hello for him--John realizes of the Oceanic Six the only "he"s are Jack, Sayid and Hurley and given the fact Christian was white Locke concluded it was Jack's dad. John tells Ben he was told to find Eloise, Ben knows Eloise from his time as an Other, Ben kills John, Eloise starts trying to locate the island via the Lamp Post. After Ben kills John, Jacob and MIB both want the Oceanic Six or most of them to come back to the island--Jacob to select a candidate to replace him, MIB to kill them all thereby allowing him to finally leave. MIB knows John's death will get Jack back to the island, Kate wanting to reunite Claire will get her to join up hence why he took Claire in the first place and left Aarion behind, Sun would want Jin. That left Sayid and Hurley and MIB didn't need to worry about them since Jacob had Ilana arrest him and Jacob personally visited Hurley in the cab after he was released from jail.

Clearly Jacob had been making numerous visits over the years to the real world. We saw in 76 with young Sawyer, 89 with young Kate, in 2005 when he approached Sayid to ask for directions allowing for Nadia to be run down and Ben to recruit Sayid to assassinate Widmore's associates. I'm not sure when the Ilana flashback with her in the hospital occurred. And we know he met with Widmore after the season four finale. I assume Widmore was the one who darted everybody since we saw similar darts used by Zoe's team in season six. Also Widmore had to have been told by Jacob to expect John Locke to arrive in Tunisia because in "The Shape of Things to Come" when Ben popped up in 2005 there were no cameras anywhere to be seen however in "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" there are cameras watching the very exit point that deposits people in Tunisia. It also leads me to believe Widmore had met Jacob by then given how he was so helpful in getting John a passport, id, money and find the Six. He also was aware of the Coming War

What else made me think Ben might have been in cahoots with MIB was when he was a child in "The Man Behind the Curtain" young Ben was drawn to his mother who couldn't step into the Dharma village because of the pylons. What was he doing that for? But ultimately Ben wasn't knowingly working with MIB so I guess I was wrong with this initial assumption

 

[Mr Light]

I doubt that Jacob time-shifted since Richard and the Others didn't. Remember that Ben was not part of the time-shifting. It seems that if you're indoctrinated into the Others (dunked in the Temple pool?) you get "locked" into this time frame.

 

[McCoy]

startrekwatcher, I think indirectly his influence probably goes back to the 50s. At least as far back as the Losties flashed at the start of S5.

 

[Mallet]

As I just mentioned in an other thread (before I saw this one), if the MIB didn't travel through time and in fact couldn't time Jump whenever he wanted, then it is impossible for the MIB to be Ghost Christian. Since GhostChristian appeared to Locke way back in time (possibly even before Young Jacob & MIB even arrived on the Island) so if it wasn't the MIB appearing to Locke way back then, then GhostChristian had to be something other then the MIB.

And, if it was the MIB, Time Jumping with the Losties, then the MIB couldn't be NotLocke in the present time, since he would have been stuck back in the 70's with the Losties until the bomb went off at the end of season five pushing them back to the present to meet up with NotLocke and Ghost Jacob, etc...

 

[startrekwatcher]

As I just mentioned in an other thread (before I saw this one), if the MIB didn't travel through time and in fact couldn't time Jump whenever he wanted, then it is impossible for the MIB to be Ghost Christian.

The Christian in the cabin with Claire in "The Shape of Things to Come" was the same Christian entity in "This Place is Death" that John encounters after falling down the well. And both Christians were MIB. He explicitly tells John that the reason the moving the island was bad was because paraphrasing---"I told you to move the island not Ben"--afterall MIB built the wheel and probably finished setting up the whole wheel/exotic matter system. But that was just him misleading John who didn't know any better.

Essentially he told John to move the island, John of course didn't no how to do it, so John assumes Christian meant Ben must move it since he knoes of the Orchid and the wheel. Ben who doesn't know John didn't meet with Jacob in the cabin but Jacob's intermediary who was actually the MIB all along concludes that if Jacob told John to move the island but not how to do this that it must mean Jacob wants Ben to move the island and let John be the new Others leader. So both John and Ben had incomplete information and were both misled by MIB.

So obviously since the island was in the midst of increasing occurences of temporal shifts at the time JOhn encountered Christian in the area near the wheel it stands to reason MIB can move through time--whether it is controlled movements unlike the survivors or the immediate area around the wheel existed outside of space-time and allowed for him to remain there.

The other Christian who was probably spirit like Michael in season six was the one who appeared to Jack off island and told Michael his service was complete.

And, if it was the MIB, Time Jumping with the Losties, then the MIB couldn't be NotLocke in the present time, since he would have been stuck back in the 70's with the Losties until the bomb went off at the end of season five pushing them back to the present to meet up with NotLocke and Ghost Jacob, etc...

I think it is safe to say that MIB can move through time and he was all over the place in season 5. Presumably after the island stopped moving when Locke fixed the wheel MIB returned to 2007 and assumed John's form where we first meet him with the Ajira passengers on hydra. While it was never explicitly stated what MIB or Jacob's abilities were I think it is safe to assume that unlike the survivors they could control and move through time as they wished.

 

[Mallet]

But if they could travel through time at will, then the MIB would know that his plan wouldn't work, since he could go to the future and see that he failed and was killed (and that Hurley would take over for Jacob), etc...

 

[startrekwatcher]

But if they could travel through time at will, then the MIB would know that his plan wouldn't work, since he could go to the future and see that he failed and was killed (and that Hurley would take over for Jacob), etc...

There are inherent risks and lapses in logic in any time travel-based story. You can look at ENT in season 3 and ask why Daniels bothers whisking away Archer to the future to tell him the Sphere Builders are evil and manipulating them instead of transporting the people Daniels really need to convince--the Xindi council. Or you can ask why instead of the Reptilians going to 2004 to release a bioweapon, the Sphere Builders didn't just deploy a anomaly creating sphere and destroy Earth.

Same thing here. You just have to understand the intent of the writers and give them some leeway on some of the logic of it. Christian was MIB in the cabin, in the cave who encountered Locke amidst all the time travel in season 5. It makes no other sense for it to be the actual spirit of Christian. Christian came to Claire, next time we see Claire she is with Christian in the cabin acting weird, next the same Christian talks of the exact conversation he had with Locke at the cabin, next Ilana says someone evil took over the cabin--burn it, then in the S5 finale we learn dead is dead so Christian couldn't be resurrected, Alex couldn't be resurrected so ergo it was MIB, then in season six we learn Claire has a friend--MIB.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think everyone who was in the present when the island was moved travelled through time, so Jacob would have time-shifted as well.

That wasn't the case--if you'll remember in the season four finale when the white light we would come to associate with a time shift occured for the very first time--John was joining up with Richard and the Others then the flash and he was by himself. If they moved with him then why was he by himself?

And when Locke -- actually Flocke -- found Richard at the end of the season, Richard didn't even know about the timeshifts. He told Flocke he watched him disappear.

It seems likely to me only the active candidates traveled through time.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I think everyone who was in the present when the island was moved travelled through time, so Jacob would have time-shifted as well.

That wasn't the case--if you'll remember in the season four finale when the white light we would come to associate with a time shift occured for the very first time--John was joining up with Richard and the Others then the flash and he was by himself. If they moved with him then why was he by himself?

And when Locke -- actually Flocke -- found Richard at the end of the season, Richard didn't even know about the timeshifts. He told Flocke he watched him disappear.

It seems likely to me only the active candidates traveled through time.

Soo.....if they have the Jacob magical touch...why can't/didn't Jacob travel in time?

Could Jacob have the power to take on another form (i.e. Christian? Perhaps he has seen MiB's deception, and used it himself?

Maybe Jacob appeared as Christian off island in the hospital. Then he turned into himself (a normal looking guy who Jack met just once, very briefly), and just blended in.

 

[Delta1]

Flocke was touched by Mother and used to be a candidate, so if candidacy is the key to the time flashes, he could have been involved. Magic touches don't go away when the original toucher dies.

 

[McCoy]

But if they could travel through time at will, then the MIB would know that his plan wouldn't work, since he could go to the future and see that he failed and was killed (and that Hurley would take over for Jacob), etc...

You can't travel into the future, only the past. Ask John Titor.

It seems likely to me only the active candidates traveled through time.

And Rose, Bernard and Vincent.

 

[Delta1]

You can't travel into the future, only the past. Ask John Titor.

I'm traveling into the future right now.

Rose was a candidate. She was on the wheel, or the wall, or something. She's on Lostpedia's list. We don't known if Bernard was a candidate. We don't have a complete list. Vincent was ... I dunno. Maybe he drank from Jacob's spring or something.