fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*!!!

[Trekker4747]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

And, of course, in "locked-in syndrome" a person is fully and completely aware and their body is working pretty much on its own. The person just has no control over any meaningful portion of their body. "Locked-in syndrome" can be caused by any number of factors from pretty-fucking-serious scurvy, exposure to toxins, and stuff like that. But the fact with that is that the person "locked in" doesn't have brain damage. Something just interupting/preventing the signals from the brain getting to the rest of the body.

This is completely different than a person who's gone without oxygen for a period of time or suffered a massive brain injury where actual brain tissue has been lost or destroyed. There's no recovery from that if a signifcant portion has been destroyed. Sure, there's people who have chunks of their brain removed and those people end up, more-or-less, better-off afterwards and are capable of living something close to a life but only because a functional portion of their brain remains.

In Teri's case her brain was so damaged that her body lacked the very ability to even run itself without help from machines. Teri was incapable of thinking or feeling for herself and the "reactions" she had to the TV and family members in the room was no different than your dog perking it's head up because it hears your voice. Worse than that, Teri was unlikely capable of hearing that voice, understanding it and getting any confort from it. She was beyond gone. I remember when her case was going on have long discussions about her with another poster here (He Who Shalt Not Be Named) who felt that because Teri was able to inhale and exhale and process IV solutions into urine and her eyes reacted to noise in the room she should be allowed to live. Countless CTs and MRIs showed that.

I wouldn't call such an existence "living." There was no "thought" in Teri's mind, she was little more than a completely reactionary being functioning on only the most simple and basic of brain activity. What happened to her was sad, what's even sadder is that her family let "Teri" suffer in such a manner for their own comfort and pleasure. If there's a such thing as a human soul, God and that stuff then they were locking Teri's within her preventing the "real" Teri the one who'd presumably be able to experience and enjoy an afterlife into a useless body that her soul couldn't use to even think.

 

[scotpens]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

In Teri's case her brain was so damaged that her body lacked the very ability to even run itself without help from machines.

Had Terri shown no signs of electrical activity in ANY part of her brain, she would have been legally and clinically "brain dead" (or, more accurately, dead according to neurological criteria). As I understand it, Terri's brainstem was still functioning. Her heartbeat and breathing continued unassisted, and pureed food was delivered through a tube surgically implanted in her stomach (she had no swallowing reflex). I noticed in the MRI scan posted upthread that a "thalamic stimulator" had been implanted in her brain. Can anyone with medical knowledge explain what that is and what it does?

At any rate, Terri's cerebral cortex -- the outer, wrinkly part of the brain that's responsible for learning, memory, processing sensory information, and consciousness itself -- was totally destroyed. You can't be a person without consciousness. And you can't be conscious without a cerebral cortex.

At least give them a choice if they wanna keep on living this way,,,,

And you plan to ask them... how?

That's why it's so important to have a living will. Make those decisions for yourself in advance, and designate someone with power of attorney to act on your behalf if you become incapacitated.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The device is something that prevents tremors and precludes the use of MRIs.

And it had been my understanding some of her biological functions were being kept running with machines.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

At least give them a choice if they wanna keep on living this way,,,,

And you plan to ask them... how?

That's why it's so important to have a living will. Make those decisions for yourself in advance, and designate someone with power of attorney to act on your behalf if you become incapacitated.

I completely, absolutely agree. I was poiting out at the impossibility of "giving them a choice if they want to keep living in that state" after the fact.

 

[scotpens]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The device is something that prevents tremors and precludes the use of MRIs.

I reread the post and I see it was a CT scan. My bad.

 

[chardman]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

And you plan to ask them... how?

That's why it's so important to have a living will. Make those decisions for yourself in advance, and designate someone with power of attorney to act on your behalf if you become incapacitated.

I completely, absolutely agree. I was poiting out at the impossibility of "giving them a choice if they want to keep living in that state" after the fact.

I think the "give them a choice" was referring to the very subject of this thread. It turns out that some seemingly brain-dead patients can respond to questions in a way that an MRI can detect. They can express their choice. if given a chance to do so.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I was poiting out at the impossibility of "giving them a choice if they want to keep living in that state" after the fact.

I think the "give them a choice" was referring to the very subject of this thread. It turns out that some seemingly brain-dead patients can respond to questions in a way that an MRI can detect. They can express their choice. if given a chance to do so.

Re-reading the OP after a much-needed night of sleep, you might be right.

 

[scotpens]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

I think the "give them a choice" was referring to the very subject of this thread. It turns out that some seemingly brain-dead patients can respond to questions in a way that an MRI can detect. They can express their choice. if given a chance to do so.

Re-reading the OP after a much-needed night of sleep, you might be right.

The OP was talking about people who may possibly have been misdiagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state, NOT brain-dead. There's a difference.

If the brain shows NO electrical activity whatsoever -- the criterion for so-called "brain death" -- the patient isn't going to respond to anything, period. To put it bluntly, a person in that condition is just so many pounds of meat.

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The OP also mentioned Teri Schiavo. Who not only was most assuredly "brain dead" but also "brain has turned into soup." There's considerable difference between people who're in comas, in "vegetative states" and people whose brains have turned into mush.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

Terri Schiavo would almost certainly not have been one of those with signs of consciousness, given that most of her brain matter was gone.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I have to say that "almost certainly" isn't good enough for me.

Far better to err on the side of not ending life, IMO.

You're opposed to capital punishment, then.

 

[scotpens]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The OP also mentioned Teri Schiavo. Who not only was most assuredly “brain dead” but also “brain has turned into soup.” There's considerable difference between people who're in comas, in ”vegetative states” and people whose brains have turned into mush.

As I stated upthread, Terri Schiavo's brainstem -- the base of the brain where it connects to the spinal cord -- was still active and functioning. That's why she was breathing on her own without the aid of a ventilator, and why she had a clinical diagnosis of PVS rather than "brain death." She may indeed have been brain dead in an informal, layman's sense, but not in the clinical sense.

Personally, I think anyone in a condition like Terri Schiavo's SHOULD be considered clinically and legally dead, but that's a matter for doctors and legislators to decide.

 

[John Picard]

Re: fMRI shows some in "persistent vegetative state" - are *conscious*

The OP also mentioned Teri Schiavo. Who not only was most assuredly “brain dead” but also “brain has turned into soup.” There's considerable difference between people who're in comas, in ”vegetative states” and people whose brains have turned into mush.

As I stated upthread, Terri Schiavo's brainstem -- the base of the brain where it connects to the spinal cord -- was still active and functioning. That's why she was breathing on her own without the aid of a ventilator, and why she had a clinical diagnosis of PVS rather than "brain death." She may indeed have been brain dead in an informal, layman's sense, but not in the clinical sense.

Personally, I think anyone in a condition like Terri Schiavo's SHOULD be considered clinically and legally dead, but that's a matter for doctors and legislators to decide.

Something like that makes me remember to let my family know that if I were ever in any kind of state like that then they need to yank the plug. When my dad's father died, he had been suffering from stomach cancer and reached a point where he was out of it. My dad and his two brothers had a brief discussion and told the doc, "Turn off the machine. He's gone, so let him go and be done with it." The doc was a bit uncertain and asked, "Are you sure?" to which my dad replied, "Either that or I'll kick the plug out of the wall right now. LET...HIM...GO." Then again, I come from a family of realists which really unsettles people.