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It's official: Thank God for Remastered!

It was a nice model, to be sure, but like all modern Trek, they filmed it wrong. They filmed it as being right on top of Deep Space K-7. The original showed nice distance between them. The scenes inside the space station, from which you could barely make out the Enterprise through the window, were brilliant.
Well, I wouldn't say “brilliant,” exactly. The view of the Enterprise hanging some distance off the space station, seen through the window of Mr. Lurry's office, was one of those AMT Enterprise model kits, crooked nacelles and all, hanging on wires in front of a painted backdrop.
 
Not really--sometimes a lo-tech, in camera solution that costs $3.00 to pull-off is brilliant precisely because it was lo-tech, in camera and three bucks. Kinda the point I was making with my George Melies post.

EDIT: beaker, my family never reads this board. Can I see the next picture in the sequence?
 
^^ Looks better in B&W. But there's something even then that I can't put my finger on that says cgi to me.
 
^^ Looks better in B&W. But there's something even then that I can't put my finger on that says cgi to me.
Warped, I LOVE models, maybe more than YOU do (do I *HAVE* to link to my re-painted Art asylum E again?), but good CGI is GOOD. Methinks you protest too much in this area. Do matte paintings from The Ten Commandments or Robin Hood piss you off as well? It's ART, man, paint or pixel.:rolleyes:
 
^^ Looks better in B&W. But there's something even then that I can't put my finger on that says cgi to me.
Warped, I LOVE models, maybe more than YOU do (do I *HAVE* to link to my re-painted Art asylum E again?), but good CGI is GOOD. Methinks you protest too much in this area. Do matte paintings from The Ten Commandments or Robin Hood piss you off as well? It's ART, man, paint or pixel.:rolleyes:
I didn't say it wasn't good. I'm saying it still doesn't look like a physical model to me. It looks better than what we see in TOS-R.
 
I didn't say it wasn't good. I'm saying it still doesn't look like a physical model to me. It looks better than what we see in TOS-R.

You seriously are only complaining for the sake of complaining. Even when I said they should have taken a real model like in DS9, you went like "But they filmed it all wrong!", even though they didn't.
It's funny, what you are doing here let's me rethink some of my own arguments against the new movie, go figure.
 
I didn't say it wasn't good. I'm saying it still doesn't look like a physical model to me. It looks better than what we see in TOS-R.
The best CGI shots of Enterprise in TOS-R look better than the best model & optical shots in Regular Ole TOS, IMO. But my favourite Enterprise shots of all time are contained in Star trek III, BECAUSE it's so real looking & not CGI.
Sorry if that seems contradictory.

In the best of all worlds, they'd shoot a real model & GGI the stars & planets, but understand, in this era, that's cost-prohibitive when merely polishing up an old series on a budget.;)
 
The thing is, it's hard to take someone's arguments seriously when all they have to argue that CGI looks crap is, "It doesn't look like a physical model to me" and when they are shown a side by side comparison that faithfully recreates the model's look and lighting (shown above) they go, "well, it still doesn't look physical to me," without offering a real example as to how. Frankly, it is a shoddy argument when the only reason you think model work looks better is because it's physically there. It reeks of curmudgionism and childish stuborness.

Keep in mind, I do agree that the CGI pic in question isn't the best lit (though, I assume they were just trying to recreate the model pic as shown and as such, recreated the same lighting conditions). However, the true test of CGI ships is seeing how they look in space and in motion. For all the talk about looking like a model, people seem to forget that its supposed to look like a space ship first and foremost.
 
To hell with all of you! You all royally piss me off! I've come to the inescapable conclusion that if I don't agree with you then you're convinced there's no pleasing me and I'm being contradictory just for the hell of it. I'm just stating my honest opinion. I didn't say it looked bad. I didn't say CGI always inherently looks like crap. I said none of those things. Perhaps I shouldn't have said it still doesn't look like a model, but that I still don't think it looks like something physical with substance and mass. Is that fucking specific enough for you?

:mad:
 
It doesn't look like a physical object to me either, though it is really, really well done. In black and white, it might fool me if I weren't in a thread about CGI realism. To echo Warped, it is something about the play of light, esp. in the color pic. But fleshed out in action, maybe it would be close enough to physical not to look out of place as do many of TOS-R effects, to me.

And yes, Chaz A, it's supposed to look like a spaceship, sure. Of course, space ships won't look like that. We might not even need to travel physically. Given that unrealism, I prefer a physical model if the rest of the show is real actors with physical props.

Note the word "prefer." I didn't say physical is "better." (BTW I'd love a good animated trek series!)
 
To hell with all of you! Perhaps I shouldn't have said it still doesn't look like a model, but that I still don't think it looks like something physical with substance and mass. Is that fucking specific enough for you?

:mad:
The Constellation in the original episode didn't look like something with any real mass... :guffaw:
 
To hell with all of you! Perhaps I shouldn't have said it still doesn't look like a model, but that I still don't think it looks like something physical with substance and mass. Is that fucking specific enough for you?

:mad:
The Constellation in the original episode didn't look like something with any real mass... :guffaw:

^ More on this point, its a logical fallacy to say that something on a TV screen doesn't look like it has mass, no matter how detailed the CGI looks. HOW do you know?! It's on a fucking TV screen, you aren't going to be able to reach out and touch the enterprise no matter what the effect is. To be honest, as much as I love that Matt Jefferies model, the CGI enterprise of TOS-R has windows you can see inside and can be "filmed" at any angle. Things like that go further to convince me we're watching an actual spaceship, which is what the goal of special effects is in all honesty.

Really, the only reason people tout that crap about, "HERP DERP A COMPUTER EFFECT DOESN'T HAVE THE MASS OF A PLASTIC SPACESHIP" really wouldn't happen if you didn't know the fx were done with CGI. That's the honest truth.
 
It doesn't look like a physical object to me either, though it is really, really well done. In black and white, it might fool me if I weren't in a thread about CGI realism. To echo Warped, it is something about the play of light, esp. in the color pic. But fleshed out in action, maybe it would be close enough to physical not to look out of place as do many of TOS-R effects, to me.

And yes, Chaz A, it's supposed to look like a spaceship, sure. Of course, space ships won't look like that. We might not even need to travel physically. Given that unrealism, I prefer a physical model if the rest of the show is real actors with physical props.

Note the word "prefer." I didn't say physical is "better." (BTW I'd love a good animated trek series!)
If it were seen in motion that might make a significant difference. Note that dirigibles don't look much real either on film except that they are.

In a way this subject reminds me of something I encountered at work. The issue regards calibrating your television for colour and picture. Go to any two homes and it's likely you'll see televisions with colour and brightness adjusted differently. Hardly any two sets will be the same. Calibrating a television takes into account the room's lighting and overall colour and adjusts the television accordingly to give you the most natural looking image. This means skies that look like the blue sky you see outside your window and grass that looks like natural green grass. But note that many people saturate their picture because they seem to want a more "mind's eye" image on their TV as opposed to a more natural realistic image.

On this point I slightly desaturate my TV's colour and turned down the brightness a bit as I tried to get a more natural looking image. I found this particularly appealing when watching SF and superhero films and shows because a more realistic picture helps my suspension of disbelief--it looks more credible because it looks more real world and natural.

One of the gripes I've had with a lot of modern SF on television (and less so on film) is what I think of as hyperrealism where colour and light and shadow looks more intense than it would be in a natural setting. And for me cgi often seems to exacerbate that. When I see a large physical object, particularly in motion, I expect it to be ill-defined and a bit blurry from a distance and getting more detailed and sharper as it approaches. I also expect to see some forced perspective that reinforces the idea the object is supposed to be large. And the parts of the object that are furthest from my point of view should be less defined than those parts nearest to my p.o.v. It's all very subtle, but it does mimic our experience in the real world.

Now granted that in the vacuum of space there is no distortion of atmosphere to blur objects, but contemporary Earth bound humans aren't accustomed to that, just as we're not accustomed to seeing objects fly past us without sound. And so as a concession to Earth bound sensibilities sound is often added to moving objects in space.

I feel I'm struggling to make a distinction between a pretty picture and a more realistic one or as realistic as it can be. As flawed as they are now by contemporary standards the original TOS f/x often conveyed something suitably convincing. The large 11ft. filming miniature and how it was photographed and lighted and with sound added managed to convince us we were seeing a massive object in motion. With the TOS-R we're seeing greater detail and clarity, but something has been lost in the process. I find the colour and the detail too intense and "hyperreal."

Peter Jackson's King Kong was a cgi construct and it had the more difficult challenge of mimicking the look and movement of a living animal. But in my estimation they did an amazing job because Kong looks massive and substantive and three dimensional. He blends in with the environment (including the recreated 1930's New York) in a naturalistic way. You're able to believe with little effort that Kong is just as real as the actors and physical buildings. After getting over how cool it all looks you start paying more attention to what's happening because you've become convinced of Kong's "reality" in context of the setting.

That's the thing that bugs me about some cgi and many of the shots in TOS-R. Something is missing where I can't accept the "reality" of what I'm seeing.
 
The problem with this is the whole paradigm of SFX in space shows nowadays; that leads all the way back to Star Wars.

When they were busy first setting up the space shots, the SFX guys asked if they should light the things realistically, to show them as actualy objects. Lucas said, of course not, they're just space ships space, it isn't real. And thus, they were brightly lit, and shown fully lit, completely counter to the way a real ship in space would be.

Of course, back then, they were actual objects, and no matter how bad you light an actual object, it's still an actual object, even if you can make it an object with bad lighting look flat at cartoony.

TOS SFX crew, however, were actually busy to produce something realistic; possibly because their lack of budget and time, they spent their time lighting and moving the ship in such a matter it highlighted it's 3D genuine object and moving nature, to convince you it was a real ship.

Now we get to the CGI era, and you get to things that exasperate each other. First, you have a discipline that has a flat picture isn't that good at showing off a 3D object, second you get overly smooth, lots of detail, 'look how powerful my rendering software is, it's the latest', and the continuing bad, non-real lighting paradigm we got with Star Wars.

End result; it looks bad, real bad.

Of course, when it comes to monsters, and things that need to actually interact with people in the real world, lighting objects badly would be a massive, massive giveaway and completely throw you out of the movie. Hence why monsters are lighted right, are made to move right, and thus why Kong, dinosaurs, mythological creatures, all look damn real, while space ships don't.
 
I suspect there's nothing wrong with Drexler's CGI other than a lack of imperfections such as a bit of grain in the image.

Edit: Let's test that theory.

enterprise.jpg


Does this look real?
 
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