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Photonic Shockwave To Disable Two Enemy Ships

I watched a Voyager episode today. The ECH (emergency command hologram) was in command and Voyager was under attack by two enemy ships. He said in his database he had files to help in the situation and said a Romulan vessel once disabled two ships by creating a photonic shockwave. He then proceeded to show Harry Kim how it's done.

He fired a Photon Torpedo between the two ships and then blasted it with a Phaser beam. It exploded and the Two ships were hit by a shockwave.

Can anyone here explain to me how hitting a photon torpedo with a phaser beam could create a photonic shockwave and severely damage two enemy ships?

Also, why would such an act be so successful when hitting each ship with a photon and a phaser strike would not even damage their shields?

If the manoeuvre is so successful and so easily accomplished by the ECH why doesn't starfleet use it more often?
 
Perhaps the specific torpedo used had a modification to its warhead? I'd probably have to rewatch the ep myself, but that's the best I can think of. I know I've seen some fanon materials suggesting a range of applications for the basic torpedo shells, including ones designed to act as ship simulators in combat exercises.

As for why such a tactic, if generally useful, isn't more common, that's a good question.
 
I watched a Voyager episode today.
That was your FIRST mistake.

Can anyone here explain to me how hitting a photon torpedo with a phaser beam could create a photonic shockwave and severely damage two enemy ships?
I'm sure we could if we thought about it hard enough, but as with most things in Voyager it roughly boils down to "Because the gods needed him to do something clever, therefore it was decreed that photon torpedoes will generate photonic shockwaves when hit by phaser beams." Simple as that.

Also, why would such an act be so successful when hitting each ship with a photon and a phaser strike would not even damage their shields?
Resonance, I assume. If both ships were close to each other, the energy emissions from the torpedo might bounce off both ships shields and strike the other ship, amplifying the effect.
 
We might also remember a couple of like instances. In "Resolutions", photon torpedo hits wouldn't have hurt the Vidiian attack formation sufficiently, but the detonation of a large antimatter container did the trick - even though the container was in essence just a slightly bigger photon torpedo. Similarly, in TOS "Obsession" it wasn't possible to kill an elusive cloud creature with multiple photon torpedoes, but it was possible to blow it up by luring it next to an antimatter container that was then detonated. A volley of torps apparently wouldn't have killed the Space Amoeba, either - but an antimatter load delivered with precision and detonated at an opportune moment did.

Generally, we have seen that a photon torpedo doesn't guarantee a kill when the enemy is prepared for it - but also that a single torpedo can remove entire starships and space stations from existence if they aren't resisting properly. So the trick might be twofold: a torpedo that doesn't have to mind enemy defenses might be loaded with a heavier warhead, even if it's one that gets just above the threshold of being effective; and a torpedo or other antimatter charge that is perhaps detonated at some distance from the enemy shields but in a style / at a moment that the enemy does not anticipate will rended the enemy's defenses less effective.

Perhaps the ECH loaded a torpedo with so much antimatter that it wouldn't have been able to hit a maneuvering enemy ship (thus explaining why this wasn't a standard warload), then detonated it in a manner that surprised enemy defenses into either not responding in time with the putative "photon torpedo hit imminent, let's optimize shields against it" protocol, or then responding with a different, incorrect protocol.

Everybody can come up with their own technobabble for how it worked. But it does appear that it's not an isolated incident, and that we might be best off with the sort of generic technobabble that covers all the above bases.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We might also remember a couple of like instances. ... Similarly, in TOS "Obsession" it wasn't possible to kill an elusive cloud creature with multiple photon torpedoes, but it was possible to blow it up by luring it next to an antimatter container that was then detonated. A volley of torps apparently wouldn't have killed the Space Amoeba, either - but an antimatter load delivered with precision and detonated at an opportune moment did.

I'm not so sure that the two TOS episodes are applicable. There was no "photonic shockwave" that did the deed.

The cloud creature in "Obsession" could see a photon torpedo coming and phase out to avoid destruction. A point-blank detonation of a bomb right next to bait for food however caught it off guard.

A volley of torps may or may not have killed the Space Amoeba. The episode only indicated that they were out of power and they found all the relevant information out at the last moment which limited their options. But it'd also depend on whether one believes those photon torps used antimatter warheads since that was the key ingredient to killing the Amoeba.
 
There was no "photonic shockwave" that did the deed.

Yet one could argue that all antimatter explosions create a photonic shockwave. Indeed, it sounds like just the thing a photon torpedo would always create. And also like the only thing that a photon torpedo ever creates.

It's not a special phenomenon - Harry doesn't ask "what is a photonic shockwave?" but "how did [that Romulan skipper] do that?". He's probably interested in how the shockwave was created between the enemy ships specifically, which does sound like it should require some trickery.

Harry isn't even particularly surprised by the ECH's offered approach. He merely expresses interest in it, asking the ECH to explain further. If the ECH had said "Oh, he fired ten photon torpedoes at them", Harry would probably have accepted that, too.

Timo Saloniemi
 
but the detonation of a large antimatter container did the trick - even though the container was in essence just a slightly bigger photon torpedo.

Which would suggest that a photon torpedo has more going for it than just being a matter/anti-matter bomb. As I recall the antimatter charge didn't need a engine or any target seeking ability, which might be why they didn't "waste" a torpedo.

In Obsession, I believe Kirk wanted the creature to be wrapped around the antimatter charge at the time of detonation. You set off a firecracker in your open palm you get a small burn, but if you make a fist ...
 
Yet one could argue that all antimatter explosions create a photonic shockwave. Indeed, it sounds like just the thing a photon torpedo would always create. And also like the only thing that a photon torpedo ever creates.

It's not a special phenomenon - Harry doesn't ask "what is a photonic shockwave?" but "how did [that Romulan skipper] do that?". He's probably interested in how the shockwave was created between the enemy ships specifically, which does sound like it should require some trickery.
That's kind of how I look at it too. A photorp flying between two ships would ordinarily be considered a miss or a dud--hit it with a phaser beam at exactly the right moment, however, and it becomes a nasty surprise, IMO...
 
...Although one then wonders why it wasn't merely detonated by remote command. Supposedly, one can do that to Starfleet torpedoes, as we saw in "Genesis".

In "Obsession", I believe Kirk wanted the creature to be wrapped around the antimatter charge at the time of detonation. You set off a firecracker in your open palm you get a small burn, but if you make a fist ...

I'd also figure the highly malleable creature could make itself transparent to antimatter explosions whenever it wanted - but it would not do that when it was sucking blood, because this process would require it to be "compatible with the physical world", so to say. Thus, a combination of extreme proximity to the blast, rare susceptibility to the blast, and one helluva blast (possibly done by using a standard torpedo warhead but loading it to the unhealthy max).

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Although one then wonders why it wasn't merely detonated by remote command. Supposedly, one can do that to Starfleet torpedoes, as we saw in "Genesis".
It might be possible to detect and evade a torpedo that's on a remote countdown (if they can detect incoming phaser or disruptor fire, a remote-controlled torpedo should be easy, IMO).
 
There was no "photonic shockwave" that did the deed.
Yet one could argue that all antimatter explosions create a photonic shockwave.

One could argue that :)

However, one could also argue that all antimatter explosions also create a neutrino shockwave. And since both "Obsession" and "The Immunity Syndrome" detonated inside a dense medium (atmosphere and space protoplasm, respectively) you've also got a thermal shockwave to boot.

But more importantly, all the explosions occurred at point-blank range which is different to the shockwave as depicted in the Voyager episode. The shockwave wasn't pivotal to the destruction of the cloud and amoeba creature.

Indeed, it sounds like just the thing a photon torpedo would always create. And also like the only thing that a photon torpedo ever creates.

Sure that makes sense. Although writers can find it useful for creating temporal rifts, soliton and gravity wave disruptions and other fun and non-photonic stuff ;)

It's not a special phenomenon - Harry doesn't ask "what is a photonic shockwave?" but "how did [that Romulan skipper] do that?". He's probably interested in how the shockwave was created between the enemy ships specifically, which does sound like it should require some trickery.

Then again, Voyager and later Enterprise introduced a whole slew of photonic words so it could be argued that Harry didn't ask what it was because they were common phrases in that series. But say "photonic shockwave", "photonic matter", etc in TOS and perhaps TNG and the characters might look at you funny :)

Harry isn't even particularly surprised by the ECH's offered approach. He merely expresses interest in it, asking the ECH to explain further. If the ECH had said "Oh, he fired ten photon torpedoes at them", Harry would probably have accepted that, too.

Of course, the ECH never said exactly what it was and instead just did it ;)

They could've fired a "photonic missile" or "photonic charges" or a host of "photonic gear" that might not actually be the same as a matter-antimatter warhead "photon torpedo".

Interestingly, a phaser detonating a photon torpedo doesn't seem all that different than a photon torpedo exploding just away from an enemy ship. In all likelihood, something else was at play for it to work, IMHO (I'm betting it might be with a photonic weapon :D )
 
It might be possible to detect and evade a torpedo that's on a remote countdown (if they can detect incoming phaser or disruptor fire, a remote-controlled torpedo should be easy, IMO).

Perhaps. But wouldn't all torpedoes be "remote-controlled" anyway? That is, the option of remote control would always be available, the channel for an abort command always open. The enemy then couldn't tell whether the incoming torpedo is going to explode on impact, or at the push of a button, until at the moment the button was pushed - which would probably be too late.

Of course, perhaps the enemy computer could react to the abort command it hears, and optimize the shields in a split second. And perhaps it would react incorrectly when you did the detonation in an unconventional manner, such as firing a phaser at your torp.

But more importantly, all the explosions occurred at point-blank range which is different to the shockwave as depicted in the Voyager episode. The shockwave wasn't pivotal to the destruction of the cloud and amoeba creature.

Quite true. I was approaching this more from the direction of this "photonic shockwave" being something routine in all torpedo detonations. That is, I wanted to eliminate the idea that this never previously heard bit of technobabble would be something that nails down the specific techno-nature of the "Workforce" trick, when the trick could have been based on perfectly routine things instead.

Although writers can find it useful for creating temporal rifts, soliton and gravity wave disruptions and other fun and non-photonic stuff

True enough again. And while a "photonic shockwave" (i.e. an EM wavefront) is the thing a real m/am explosion would most probably create, it is very beneficial to think that such explosions in the Trek universe have profound "secondary" effects. These would help explain why photon torpedo explosions sometimes are much more powerful than one would expect them to be, sometimes much less so, despite taking place in seemingly neutral and well understood vacuum. We just have to accept that we don't understand vacuum the way the 24th century people do - and that things of subspace or gravity nature are the underlying basis for much of Trek's technology which thus is quite susceptible to anything that rattles subspace or gravity.

But say "photonic shockwave", "photonic matter", etc in TOS and perhaps TNG and the characters might look at you funny :)

Yeah. But retconning "photonic shockwave" as the standard term for what bursts out from a photon torpedo explosion sounds like such a simple and elegant thing to do...

Of course, it would also be attractive to create some sort of a common interpretation for "photonics" in the 24th century. The word usually seems to refer to the basic nature of holograms; it might be something as generic as "the art of manipulating electromagnetic radiation to precise shapes". In which case the tools for that manipulation might include holoemitters and photon torpedoes alike, and the trick in "Workforce" would lie in the exact contouring of that EM wavefront.

They could've fired a "photonic missile" or "photonic charges" or a host of "photonic gear" that might not actually be the same as a matter-antimatter warhead "photon torpedo".

Perhaps. But we're dealing with a seriously undercrewed ship here: anything that requires unusual use of physical gear is going to be less probable than ever under these circumstances. A century prior, in ST6:TUC, it took the physical presence of two experts in the torpedo tube to create a special weapon. Even in the 2370s, it might not be possible to whip up a special "photonic warhead" just because a powerful AI in command of the ship's systems asks for one.

Which is basically why I want to root for maximally basic, standardized gear and approach here, ranging from the interpretation of "photonic shockwave" to the speculation on the kill hardware used. We'd be seeing the ship's standard systems in action, merely commanded by a tactically innovative new character.

Interestingly, a phaser detonating a photon torpedo doesn't seem all that different than a photon torpedo exploding just away from an enemy ship.

True. But photon torpedoes in general are supposed to be good weapons for harming enemy ships. Perhaps nothing more was needed beyond a standard detonation - provided that the detonation happened at the correct spot? Note that Kim had had trouble penetrating the enemy shields, so the enemy kept attacking in a deadly coordinated formation; the ECH then uses this new tactic; and the enemy no longer attacks in a coordinated formation. We don't see the enemy destroyed by the effect, merely deterred; and when three more enemy units arrive to launch a new coordinated attack, the ECH sees retreat as the only option.

So perhaps the new tactic wasn't any more destructive than one would expect. Perhaps the means of detonation didn't increase the power of the explosion at all. Perhaps the effect the ECH aimed for, and achieved, was the disruption of the attack formation - a reasonable goal, and a plausible effect from the use of a single torpedo.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It might be possible to detect and evade a torpedo that's on a remote countdown (if they can detect incoming phaser or disruptor fire, a remote-controlled torpedo should be easy, IMO).

Perhaps. But wouldn't all torpedoes be "remote-controlled" anyway? That is, the option of remote control would always be available, the channel for an abort command always open.
While I tend to think here's probably some sort of automatic fail-safe system that will cause a torpedo to either self-detonate or otherwise become inert if it travels too far without hitting anything, detonation by remote-control would definitely seem to be an necessary option if you want a stop torpedo from detonating somewhere you don't want it to.

But I think it depends on the situation, namely one that's the most ideal for doing so--such as when someone's not shooting back at you. In many or even most fast-paced combat situations, photorps seem to be "fire and forget" weapons in which once they're locked onto a target, off they go, and it's either hit or miss.
The enemy then couldn't tell whether the incoming torpedo is going to explode on impact, or at the push of a button, until at the moment the button was pushed - which would probably be too late.
True, but then it probably becomes an issue of an enemy commander's experience or level of cautiousness regarding near-misses. Most enemy commanders may regard a torpedo that missed them as simply being such, while others may order his ship to evade anything that comes remotely within range of his vessel. I think every tactic is based on a little luck going its way to be successful.
Of course, perhaps the enemy computer could react to the abort command it hears, and optimize the shields in a split second. And perhaps it would react incorrectly when you did the detonation in an unconventional manner, such as firing a phaser at your torp.
That's what I was thinking. It would basically give the enemy computer a "What the hell?" moment...
 
I think what the writers were going for in this case was that whatever makes up the phaser beam reacts with the antimatter in such a way that it generates a shockwave. Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense tho, because if it was so effective, why don't they build torpedoes that can do that normally. Seems to be a common problem with use-and-forget technologies in Star Trek tho.
 
It could just be, like others have said, this was an uncommon tactic and not the normal use for a torpedo. The effect created could be similar to an airburst, as opposed to a point detonation, of a bomb or artillery shell. In the latter, a great deal of force and energy are directed into something and limits the effect. By detonation in between two targets, with no real contact, the full force of the shockwave (or concussive effect) can impact the shields of both vessels simultaneously and maybe with more force. Perhaps with just enough energy to disrupt systems more than destructive force.
 
Because when you shoot a ball with a beam, it explodes. Simple video game physics.

Ah, I kid.

If I remember, the ships were moving at warp. I always assumed that's why the explosion of the torpedo caused such a massive course interruption.
 
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