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Contacting Aliens 'A Bad Idea', Warns Hawking

About 'divide by zero' - this operation can either be viewed as meaningless or as 'equal infinite'.
Neither of which can be used in logical operations. There are, on the other hand, non-conventional logical systems that can consistently handle Divide By Zero scenarios. I worked for a company that considered implementing one for a database project; they concluded the altered logical framework would have compatibility problems with other databases.

As I said - any civilization that achieves advanced tech is fluent in the language of mathematics - and its logical fundaments and conceps don't change, simply because it would then become inapplicable.
The same can be said for ANY complex language regardless of structure or vocabulary: the fundaments and concepts don't really change, you'll always have verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc, and some combinations of concepts that our idea of language may not even possess.

This is why I doubt mathematics will be any easier than ordinary language to translate. Both would be deciphered the same way: point to an object, say its name; perform an action, say what you're doing.

But you can't choose any logical framework you want to build mathematics with it - not if you want your mathematics to be applicable to the physical universe.
Indeed. And wouldn't you know it, sometimes it isn't. As in the case of, say, imaginary numbers and irrational values. Most famously in the case of quantum mechanics, where a particle's wave function is probabilistic expression and doesn't ACTUALLY reflect the particle's state.

All this, unlike any other languages used by humans to comunicate - languages that involve arbitrary rules, illogical constructions, concepts that a non-human is likely not to have, etc.
This is beginning to look more and more like special pleading, since you have yet to explain how the symbolism and format of a mathematical system is in any way different from the syntax and vocabulary of a written/spoken language. The fundamental rules are no different: language has to at least partially correspond to reality no matter how it's constructed, or stand in for something that has no physical reality.
 
newtype_alpha

I have yet to explain the difference between a language or mathematics?

Let's try again, then:
A random human language expresses human concepts; many refer to subjective states, unknown to aliens, the rest express the universe as viewed by human beings, with certain senses and expectations. A human language is not internally self-consistent - not even close.

Mathematics - the concepts expressed in it reflect the laws of physics, express precisesly the laws of physics, with no subiectivism being allowed.
You mentioned the wave function as having no applicability in the physical universe:wtf:? Really? The wave function expresses the 'fuzzy' state of a quantum particle and it DOES actually reflect the particle's objective state; the concept is hard to swallow for some humans, it contradicts those expectations I mentioned, but it describes the physical universe - and this is why, despite contradicting 'common sense' aka subjective expectations, it is part of mathematics. Aliens would know the exact same concept and would use it in their mathematics in the same relations.
Irrational numbers? Imaginary values? They result and are required by a mathematic that describes the physical laws - these exact concepts, not similar ones.
And mathematics are rigidly logic - the universe being rigidly logic.

Now - just to make sure you follow me this time:
Mathematics are logically self-consistent, other languages aren't.
The concepts described in mathematics as an exact description of the physical universe will be common to both communicating species, while the concepts expressed in other languages may well have no correspondent or a very warped one in the other species.
 
newtype_alpha

I have yet to explain the difference between a language or mathematics?

Let's try again, then:
A random human language expresses human concepts; many refer to subjective states, unknown to aliens, the rest express the universe as viewed by human beings, with certain senses and expectations. A human language is not internally self-consistent - not even close.

Mathematics - the concepts expressed in it reflect the laws of physics, express precisesly the laws of physics, with no subiectivism being allowed.
Uh huh... so if I show you this
stuffandthing.png
surely you'll be able to translate it easily since it's just a mathematical expression, right? It's not like it's an actual language or anything.

Except that unless you know what symbols are being used in this expression (its Wingdings, by the way) and unless you know what logical system it is being used to express (a switch() statement in C++) you might as well be translating Japanese.

You mentioned the wave function as having no applicability in the physical universe:wtf:? Really? The wave function expresses the 'fuzzy' state of a quantum particle and it DOES actually reflect the particle's objective state
Half right. It reflects the set of the particle's possible state since the particle's objective state cannot be known. Mathematics allows for certain conditions (negative numbers, for example) that do not logically exist in nature even if they represent--at least indirectly--an understandable concept.

Now - just to make sure you follow me this time:
Mathematics are logically self-consistent, other languages aren't.
Of course languages are self-consistent. They wouldn't be comprehensible if they weren't. That's the whole thing that makes a language or even a group of languages distinguishable from any other language: the internal and sometimes arbitrary logic of spelling, grammar and word use based on self-consistent rules that either never change or change slowly enough (over a period of many generations) as to not matter.

Written language, like any mathematical system, has to express its information using a pre-determined syntax and a set of codified symbols representative of objects, quantities, qualities and relationships. Translating an alien text is therefore no different from translating an alien equation: unless you have something to help decipher the basic vocabulary, you can't make alot of progress with it.
 
newtype_alpha

I have yet to explain the difference between a language or mathematics?

Let's try again, then:
A random human language expresses human concepts; many refer to subjective states, unknown to aliens, the rest express the universe as viewed by human beings, with certain senses and expectations. A human language is not internally self-consistent - not even close.

Mathematics - the concepts expressed in it reflect the laws of physics, express precisesly the laws of physics, with no subiectivism being allowed.
Uh huh... so if I show you this[...]surely you'll be able to translate it easily since it's just a mathematical expression, right? It's not like it's an actual language or anything.

Mathematics IS an actual language. And if both me and the interlocutor know the exact same concepts described, these scriblings are understandable, as opposed to spoken languages, laced with species-specific concepts and ambiguities.

You mentioned the wave function as having no applicability in the physical universe:wtf:? Really? The wave function expresses the 'fuzzy' state of a quantum particle and it DOES actually reflect the particle's objective state
Half right. It reflects the set of the particle's possible state since the particle's objective state cannot be known.
You really do have trouble grasping this concept, do you?
The wave function DOES reflect the particle's objective state! You see, the particle does occupy simultaneously more positions in space, etc - this IS the particle's known objective state, on the quantum level, that's how physics works.

Now - just to make sure you follow me this time:
Mathematics are logically self-consistent, other languages aren't.
The concepts described in mathematics as an exact description of the physical universe will be common to both communicating species, while the concepts expressed in other languages may well have no correspondent or a very warped one in the other species.
Of course languages are self-consistent. They wouldn't be comprehensible if they weren't. That's the whole thing that makes a language or even a group of languages distinguishable from any other language: the internal and sometimes arbitrary logic of spelling, grammar and word use based on self-consistent rules that either never change or change slowly enough (over a period of many generations) as to not matter
A perusal of any grammar book will reveal that the 'rules of spelling' are anything but self-consistent - arbitrary illogical constructions, arbitrary exceptions from the rules, different contradictory rules applying to the same kind of logical constructions, etc, etc.
You think grammar is rigidly logical? Good luck with that.
 
/.../ surely you'll be able to translate it easily since it's just a mathematical expression, right? It's not like it's an actual language or anything.

The thing is: you have to define the symbols you use before actually starting to write expressions like that.

For more info on it see the Arecibo Message;

the_message.gif


- or the Pioneer Plaque, both include definitions of used graphics.

Yes - any message meant to communicate with an alien intelligence will comprise a 'primer' (an introduction), where, basically, one correlates symbols to simple mathematical concepts (known to both species), by making these symbols have the properties/behave like these simple concepts.
Once this basic vocabulary is established, one can begin to describe more intricate mathematical concepts, etc - until the vocabulary becomes comprehensive enough to support meaningful comunication between the two species.
 
Mathematics IS an actual language. And if both me and the interlocutor know the exact same concepts described, these scriblings are understandable, as opposed to spoken languages, laced with species-specific concepts and ambiguities.
That's my point. You DON'T know the concepts being described, because you don't know what symbols or combinations of symbols are being used to describe what concept or in what context the concept applies. You don't know if you're looking at an alien sigma notation, an equivalency, a logarithm, a derivative, a second derivative, a linear function, an addition statement, or something else entirely that human mathematics has never heard of (alien equivalent of FORTRAN, perhaps).

If you don't know ahead of time what type of concept is being described, translating a mathematical system is out of the question. If you know that ahead of time it gets alot easier, but this is also true of a written language.

You really do have trouble grasping this concept, do you?
The wave function DOES reflect the particle's objective state! You see, the particle does occupy simultaneously more positions in space, etc
No it doesn't. Famously demonstrated in the example of Schrodinger's Cat, formalized by Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle: you cannot know both the velocity and the position of a particle, but both quantities exist even if you can't measure them. QM gets around this by measuring it as a wave function, which works only because the PROBABILITY of a particle being in any particular state is calculable, and therefore partly predictable.

In other words (extreme simplification) a wave function states "one in six chance of having state A, five in six of State B." While this is logically correct, it doesn't actually tell you whether a particular particle in a particular time and place actually IS in State A. QM works as well as it does precisely because nobody ever needs to know something like that.

on the quantum level, that's how physics works.
Strictly speaking, that's how mathematics works. It is not, however, how NATURE works. A particle can only have one defined state at a time; probabilities find expression in the aggregate of behaviors, but they do not manifest in individual particles the way wave functions do.

Hence what it means to say "Schrodinger's Cat is alive/Shrodinger's Cat is dead." Nature requires that the particle either decayed or it didn't; it cannot do BOTH, even if the wave function says otherwise.

A perusal of any grammar book will reveal that the 'rules of spelling' are anything but self-consistent
I'm not sure you understand what "self consistent means."

Let's clear this up: I open my college grammar book and I find that the word "adjective" is spelled the same way throughout the entire book. No matter how many other grammar books I open, "adjective" always has the same spelling, with that ridiculous silent C in the middle of it.

The silent C is an arbitrary and illogical construction. But since it is a construction that is consistent throughout the english-speaking world, we call this "self-consistency." Which is to say the system of spelling and grammar is consistent within itself; it does not need to be consistent with anything else.

Since the language is built on an internal logical framework that is consistent and knowable (and apparently analyzable, given the existence of grammar books you alluded to earlier) then it is also translatable to someone who knows nothing at all about it. All you have to do is provide a linguistic primer: a basic set of bare-bones concepts that an intelligent person can use to extract meaning from another larger sample of literature. This is precisely why the Rosetta Stone was so useful in translating ancient Egyptian texts; without a similar mathematical rosetta stone, Earth's mathematicians are equally clueless.
 
/.../ surely you'll be able to translate it easily since it's just a mathematical expression, right? It's not like it's an actual language or anything.

The thing is: you have to define the symbols you use before actually starting to write expressions like that.

For more info on it see the Arecibo Message;

the_message.gif


- or the Pioneer Plaque, both include definitions of used graphics.
But the Aricebo message turns into gibberish unless you break it down properly, and there's nothing in the message to indicate to a recipient how he's supposed to do that. If it's received by a race of octopods that's accustomed to doing mathematics in Base-8, they'll probably print it out first in a set of 8-digit lines, interpret it as some random noise and ignore it.

To use the message earlier (another extreme oversimplification) I transmit my C++ program to you and then send a copy of Wingdings typefont so you can translate it. The translated message now looks like this:
Code:
switch(command_character)
		{
		case 'c':
		case 'C': displayedVal = 0.0;
				  break;
		case '+': cout << "  Enter Number:";
				  cin >> newEntry;
				  displayedVal = displayedVal + newEntry;
				  break;
		case '-': cout << "  Enter Number:";
				  cin >> newEntry;
				  displayedVal = displayedVal - newEntry;
				  break;
		case '*': cout << "  Enter Number:";
				  cin >> newEntry;
				  displayedVal = displayedVal * newEntry;
				  break;
		case '/': cout << "  Enter Number:";
			      cin >> newEntry;
				  displayedVal = displayedVal / newEntry;
				  if (newEntry == 0)
				  {
					  doDivideZero(double &);
				  }
 
				  break;
		case '^': cout << "  Enter Number:";
				  cin >> newEntry;
				  displayedVal = pow (displayedVal,newEntry);
				  break;
				  default : cout << "  Unacceptable Operator(" <<
Can you tell what the code does yet? Would you be able to tell if you didn't know anything about C++, if you were--say--a 19th century mathematician for whom the concept of "programming language" is still a completely alien idea?

Once this basic vocabulary is established, one can begin to describe more intricate mathematical concepts, etc - until the vocabulary becomes comprehensive enough to support meaningful comunication between the two species.
Perhaps I am imagining things, but I do seem to recall saying exactly this in an earlier post.

My only real point is that transmitting a mathematical primer is no different from transmitting a semantic one. If you can devise a mathematical header that an alien intelligence can relate to, a semantic one is no less complicated.
 
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