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V: "Fruition" 5/11/10 - Grading & Discussion

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I doubt Marcus is Fifth Column, too. In the first episodes, I actually thought he was the shadowy puppetter, and Anna a dupe; if he is working against Anna, I'd think it would be to his own ends (usurp her position?) rather than aid humanity or free the Vs.

On the topic of Anna, what do we make of her? When I saw what had been done to Lisa, I thought to myself that Anna was one of the most evil, heartless villains we've ever seen. Except: she is heartless; she has no empathy, which is the basis of all moral sentiment. So it isn't like she's choosing to do wrong, or inflict suffering, because these are purely academic concepts to her; she can emulate but cannot feel. She's a pure psychopath, essentially amoral.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I doubt Marcus is Fifth Column, too. In the first episodes, I actually thought he was the shadowy puppetter, and Anna a dupe; if he is working against Anna, I'd think it would be to his own ends (usurp her position?) rather than aid humanity or free the Vs.

That's an interesting idea, that he's the one in charge. He's simply too quiet to be exactly "what it says on the tin," you know?

On the topic of Anna, what do we make of her? When I saw what had been done to Lisa, I thought to myself that Anna was one of the most evil, heartless villains we've ever seen. Except: she is heartless; she has no empathy, which is the basis of all moral sentiment. So it isn't like she's choosing to do wrong, or inflict suffering, because these are purely academic concepts to her; she can emulate but cannot feel. She's a pure psychopath, essentially amoral.

Um ... a better looking, more media-savvy Borg Queen? Seriously. That's pretty much how I think of her.
 
I found this episode to be very interesting, and better than the previous weeks, although I found them interesting as well.
 
On the topic of Anna, what do we make of her? When I saw what had been done to Lisa, I thought to myself that Anna was one of the most evil, heartless villains we've ever seen. Except: she is heartless; she has no empathy, which is the basis of all moral sentiment. So it isn't like she's choosing to do wrong, or inflict suffering, because these are purely academic concepts to her; she can emulate but cannot feel. She's a pure psychopath, essentially amoral.

And this is the fundamental contradiction of the show's premise, the reason this whole "no emotion" idea that got stuck onto the Visitors in the post-hiatus retool makes no sense. True psychopaths are terrible at manipulating people, because you can't figure out how to get a desired emotional response out of someone if you're incapable of understanding their emotions. The kind of deft manipulation that Anna employs requires empathy, not in the vernacular sense of caring, but in the literal sense of being able to comprehend others' emotions and motivations. Anna couldn't manipulate emotions so expertly if she had none of her own, any more than someone born blind could be a great painter.

Not to mention that if Anna has no emotions, why does she display those wicked, self-satisfied grins when nobody's looking?
 
On the topic of Anna, what do we make of her? When I saw what had been done to Lisa, I thought to myself that Anna was one of the most evil, heartless villains we've ever seen. Except: she is heartless; she has no empathy, which is the basis of all moral sentiment. So it isn't like she's choosing to do wrong, or inflict suffering, because these are purely academic concepts to her; she can emulate but cannot feel. She's a pure psychopath, essentially amoral.

I agree that she lacks empathy, but she can definitely feel. Just look at her face whenever she has manipulated humans and then turns away from their sight. She invariably smiles. Obviously, the smiling wouldn't be helpful for her goals (especially if somebody were to see that smile), so there must be something internal creating those smiles. She feels joy when her manipulations are working.

Edit: Christopher beat me to the comment about her self-satisfying smiles. Though, I wonder if true empathy (feeling what others feel) is needed for an extremely intelligent person to manipulate others. It's an interesting question, though.
 
Maybe that's her secret, Anna as the queen, is the only V with emotion? Maybe that's why the bliss communion thing works, and why it's so important that other V not experiance any emotions? This could have interesting plot repercussions for her daughter down the road, if true?
 
Maybe that's her secret, Anna as the queen, is the only V with emotion? Maybe that's why the bliss communion thing works, and why it's so important that other V not experiance any emotions? This could have interesting plot repercussions for her daughter down the road, if true?

Well, we can't argue that she's the only one with empathy because her lack of empathy was used as the baseline for testing. There seems to be a distinction here between a lack of empathy and a lack of emotion.
 
I'm guessing the characters don't ask obvious questions because the writers have no idea what the answers are.
Possibly or like LOST it is more about the writers not wanting to reveal too much to the audience and simply just use the characters to facilitate just the information they want parsed out.
 
Maybe that's her secret, Anna as the queen, is the only V with emotion? Maybe that's why the bliss communion thing works, and why it's so important that other V not experiance any emotions? This could have interesting plot repercussions for her daughter down the road, if true?

Well, we can't argue that she's the only one with empathy because her lack of empathy was used as the baseline for testing. There seems to be a distinction here between a lack of empathy and a lack of emotion.

Exactly, a distinction that Anna expects her daughter to learn, if she's to take her place as queen some day?
 
The revelation about Paul McGillion & co. developing a virus that's potentially lethal to the Visitors gave me a heart-sinking feeling -- it reminds me too much of the second '80s miniseries, V: The Final Battle, and its use of the "Red Dust" bioweapon as a magic bullet for ending the invasion. I'd rather not see them go such a facile route again.

I had those same thoughts when I saw it. However I was beginning to wonder when they were going to add a scientist, or at least some kind of sci-fi weapon, to the team. In the miniseries, one the first moves the V made was to turn humans against all manner of scientists. I'm actually kind of happy to see them go this route cause I'm not buying an FBI agent, a priest, a mercenary and an outcast as saving the Earth from aliens with far superior technology.

What worries me is the possibility of them recycling the Star Child story line. If Ryan's offspring has any kind of telekinetic powers.... :rolleyes:
 
Also, I find it curious that so many people slammed the pilot for too much exposition, but now, people are saying we aren't being told enough.


The problem is not that we, the audience, aren't being told enough. It's that the characters on the show aren't asking the right questions--especially when they have Ryan-the-friendly-V standing right there!

Indeed, the entire human race seems to have an appalling lack of curiosity where the V's are concerned. The V's have been here for months now, but nobody has bothered to ask them what their home planet is like, how their species evolved, or whether they have encountered any other intelligent species during their travels through the universe? Where are the world's scientists and philosophers? Aren't they the slightest bit interested in such questions?

Okay, Anna is not going to reveal anything she doesn't want to, but shouldn't she at least be getting bombarded with questions like this? And, for God's sake, why are none of the Resistance folks asking Ryan any of the big questions about the nature of his species?
 
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^Or, they could just ask them about the part in this episode where Anna said that they had asked for "nothing" in return.

This isn't true. When she arrived, Anna said that they needed a quantity of a certain "mineral".
 
Well, we can't argue that she's the only one with empathy because her lack of empathy was used as the baseline for testing. There seems to be a distinction here between a lack of empathy and a lack of emotion.

But that's my point -- realistically, there shouldn't be. The vernacular definition of "empathy" as "caring" is confusing the issue. I'm talking about the technical, behavioral definition of the word, which is simply the ability to recognize and identify with others' emotional responses, to understand their behavior from their point of view. Even the worst sadist needs empathy in this sense -- you can't know the best way to hurt someone's feelings, and can't enjoy their suffering, if you're unable to perceive and comprehend how they feel in response to a given stimulus. So empathy doesn't necessarily mean compassion. Empathy is a double-edged sword. The understanding of others' emotions can be a basis for kindness and caring, but the same understanding can also be twisted to manipulate, exploit, and hurt people.

If you have no emotional understanding, then you can't comprehend how people with emotions will react and won't know the best way to manipulate their emotions. In real life, as opposed to fiction, psychopaths, people who have no ability to read or care about others' emotions, are no good at lying or manipulating people. Lying is a social skill, requiring empathy, the ability to see things through other people's eyes. In order to lie to someone successfully, you need to be able to understand how your words and actions will be perceived by them and what emotions they'll feel in response. Again, a double-edged sword -- lying and cheating others effectively requires the same social sensitivity that enables trust and friendship.

The only way what we're being shown could make sense is if Anna really does have emotion, but has chosen to embrace the ideological pretense that she doesn't. Kind of like an evil Surak. Her attempt to suppress emotion in her people could be a form of control, to ensure they have no desires except the ones she instills in them.

So it would be wrong to call her a psychopath in any clinical sense. She'd just be a person who's chosen to be cruel and ruthless.


Indeed, the entire human race seems to have an appalling lack of curiosity where the V's are concerned. The V's have been here for months now, but nobody has bothered to ask them what their home planet is like, how their species evolved, or whether they have encountered any other intelligent species during their travels through the universe? Where are the world's scientists and philosophers? Aren't they the slightest bit interested in such questions?

Not to mention the question of why the Visitors look and act exactly like us, something that any biologist or sociologist would recognize as a vast improbability. There was a cursory reference to this in the premiere episode, but it hasn't been addressed since.

Though what annoys me is the metatextual equivalent: the writers aren't bothering to make the Visitors at all alien, giving them no culture of their own. They talk and act just like humans even in private. They're too ordinary.
 
Marcus, a Fifth Columnist? Someone so important, so close to the top, just happens to be working against the institution he nominally supports? Doesn't that make things far too easy and convenient? Would this show's writers really do anything so --

Oh, right. Erica. Never minnnnd... ;)

I don't think he's so much 5th column as wanting power for himself.
 
Pretty good episode again. This show lacks a sense of being truly inspired or original and will never be brilliant, but it's "workmanlike" - they know how to tell an interesting story and are doing basically the right things. Considering how much crap there is on TV that doesn't work at all, I'll happily take a workmanlike, watchable show. :bolian:

Kudos to Anna for using PR brilliantly. ;) If Team Erica has a hope of countering Anna on the PR front, they'll have to get very dirty. Anna's advantage is that it's easier to create a negative impression than a positive one, and a negative impression is impossible to completely erase. The Fifth Column has already made a horrible blunder in allowing Anna to take the initiative in the PR war. Draconian measures will now be required to turn things around.

Rather than defending the Fifth Column PR-wise, which is now a lost cause, Erica should be contriving her own atrocities to make the V's look bad. She'll have to sacrifice some of the V's who are with the Fifth Column by having them pose as agents who are discovered enacting Anna's "real" plan for humanity and who confess to something really nasty. Using humans as breeding fodder to create a hybrid race who will serve as the V's imperial overlords on Earth or something like that.

Who cares what Anna's real plan is, just come up with something that will push people's buttons and ignite humanity's well-known tendencies towards bigotry and xenophobia. 6.5 billion infuriated, frightened, angry humans could drive away the V's regardless of their fancy tech. Erica needs to have the stomach to get down in the mud - and this show is too chicken and too naive to depict that honestly - but if this were really happening, that would be the only strategy that could work.

Not to mention the casual comment regarding Anna's willingness to hurt her daughter:

(paraphrasing):

"She's not human. She's a V."

Thanks, Ryan. We appreciate your in-depth analysis about your own race. Seriously, that comment could have been made by any human. A little more incite beyond "She's a V" would be helpful (to say the least).

This show isn't smart enough to provide a good depiction of the V's and how their minds and society work. Apparently "bliss" is their answer to human emotion, and it must be natural to them, or else they couldn't be a social species - they need either emotion or something like it to serve as social glue. So why is bliss bad and emotions good? An intelligent show would have thought about it and at least be working on an answer.
 
^ I have noticed what you mean by the show being too "chicken" but at the same time I can see Erica's lines being blurred as one thing after another goes on. I think she's beginning to realize that they will have to get down and dirty (hmm... Erica and Anna mud wrestling?) but she's trying to stick to the "Higher Ground." Which as you said, in the long run will not work. But it's interesting to see that transition.
 
If there is a transition. It wouldn't be realistic for Erica to drop-kick her morality immediately, but a gutsier show would confront her with it sooner or later. I'm not holding my breath.

Hell, come up with some dialog as to why Ryan doesn't know anything.

"Humans are the fourth species we've come across in the solar system. The first species we conquered to strip their planet of resources. The second species we used for food. I thought that's what the plan was for earth when we first scouted this planet, but Anna's doing something completely different and I don't know what."

Or maybe Ryan was born after the last time Anna invaded a planet. The V soldiers grow to adulthood in what, a week?
 
If? I mean I know it's subtle, but every time they are faced with a tough decision you can see it in her eyes. When they were talking about shooting down the V shuttle she was obviously hesitant about using terrorist methods or however you choose to put it. Now she's thinking about using her own son against Anna? I'd say thats a bit of a change.
 
She's gonna have to get a lot tougher/nastier than using Tyler as bait, if she's going to win this war. But the writers won't push it that far. They'll keep arranging for the Fifth Column to have dumb luck, like Jacob being on their side and Erica being put in charge of hunting them down.

Maybe that's her secret, Anna as the queen, is the only V with emotion? Maybe that's why the bliss communion thing works, and why it's so important that other V not experiance any emotions? This could have interesting plot repercussions for her daughter down the road, if true?

That might make some sense - the V's do have emotion. They don't remember when their species had emotion because they are all fairly young (maybe just a few years old) and Anna is much older than any of them - they are all her offspring. She contrived a way to block their natural emotions and substitute addictive bliss, which she can control. For bliss to be bad, it must be unnatural for their species.
 
Of course she will. And as for the writers, I hope you are wrong (no offense intended, I just want it to get really good). But you gotta admit thats a rather large moral leap to go from being hesitant in regards to shooting at your enemy, to using your own son. If for nothing else then the fact that I would never, under any condition that I can personally imagine use my own daughter in such a way. Not that I exactly know what she's planning other then maybe get Lisa to actually feel, but still.

And as for lisa... I dunno, I almost think her transition is going too quickly. And did anyone else notice that Ryan almost got sucked into his Bliss addiction again?
 
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