Fury Stupidity

[teya]

Thing is, we're not looking at *future* Native Americans when we talk about "Tattoo." We're talking about the past history. And since Star Trek is supposed to be our future, we're talking our past history.


So, according to Star Trek, exodus and I aren't fully human. That is exactly the same argument that the US government used to pursue a program of genocide, which makes what would have been simply a stupid plotline into something rather more offensive.

Actually, I thought I was talking about the Irish.

You responded to exodus's statement that TPTB hadn't bothered with any other ethnicity. You used the Irish as an example of another that had been treated like the American Indian. We have argued that the presentation was different.

You tried to get off "Tattoo" by bringing up Fair Haven.

For what it's worth though when I first saw "Tattoo" I took the episode meaning to be that Native Americans were more than human. Not that that's any better - why should they be different than any other humans foibles and all?

And we have given you a Native American perspective on this.

One would hope that you could see some value in seeing how a member of an ethnicity views its representation, however YMMV on that, too, and most likely does.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I feel this thread may have, perhaps, gotten a wee smidge bit off topic. So, I hope no one hits me over the head here, but I had something to add to the original post.

So... my question is... why not just travel back to the Caretaker's Array and persuade Kes and Neelix not to join the Voyager crew? Voyager's computer told Kes that Voyager had been in the Delta Quadrant for fifty-some days, so arriving at the Array would prevent Kes from having to do a shitload of backtracking through Vidiian/Kazon-Nistrom space, risking capture or destruction.

Seems like some unnecessary stupidity for an already stupid plan.

This idea of going back to the time of the array to keep Kes and Neelix from joining up with Voyager is kind of bothering me here.

Voyager didn't run into Neelix until way after they'd blown up the array, so going back that far seems kind of pointless. Wouldn't it have been easier to go back to just before Neelix would have run into Voyager and distracted him long enough for Voyager to pass by without him ever having interacted with them? That would have also prevented Kes and Neelix from coming on board while not altering too much more of anything else.

 

[teya]

Voyager didn't run into Neelix until way after they'd blown up the array, so going back that far seems kind of pointless.

Voyager ran into Neelix before they blew up the array.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Voyager didn't run into Neelix until way after they'd blown up the array, so going back that far seems kind of pointless.

Voyager ran into Neelix before they blew up the array.

Okay, I don't remember.

But, my question still holds. Why not just distract Neelix so that he doesn't cross paths with Voyager?

 

[exodus]

Voyager didn't run into Neelix until way after they'd blown up the array, so going back that far seems kind of pointless.

Voyager ran into Neelix before they blew up the array.

Okay, I don't remember.

But, my question still holds. Why not just distract Neelix so that he doesn't cross paths with Voyager?

..because a few eps. later Chakotay & LT. Carey had picked a fruit/veggie that would have poisoned everyone had Neelix not warned them. So while I'm still unsure about Kes, Neelix at least served a purpose that would have saved everyones life.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

 

[exodus]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

Well then, you just answered your own question.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

Well then, you just answered your own question.

More like made my point. She didn't really care who died on Voyager as long as the young Kes was never there to begin with. So what if they all ate a poisonous plant? So what if Seven died? So what if the EMH remained obnoxious? At that point, she didn't care.

So, why not just go back and distract Neelix?

 

[exodus]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

Well then, you just answered your own question.

More like made my point. She didn't really care who died on Voyager as long as the young Kes was never there to begin with. So what if they all ate a poisonous plant? So what if Seven died? So what if the EMH remained obnoxious? At that point, she didn't care.

So, why not just go back and distract Neelix?

Wait, you lost me.
Who are we talking about here?

 

[teya]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

Well then, you just answered your own question.

More like made my point. She didn't really care who died on Voyager as long as the young Kes was never there to begin with. So what if they all ate a poisonous plant? So what if Seven died? So what if the EMH remained obnoxious? At that point, she didn't care.

So, why not just go back and distract Neelix?

Because she blamed Janeway and wanted to hurt her.

 

[exodus]

But, if Kes wasn't on Voyager at the end of Season 3, Seven would have died.

Well then, you just answered your own question.

More like made my point. She didn't really care who died on Voyager as long as the young Kes was never there to begin with. So what if they all ate a poisonous plant? So what if Seven died? So what if the EMH remained obnoxious? At that point, she didn't care.

So, why not just go back and distract Neelix?

Oh, you're talking abour Kes.
I thought you were talking about Janeway.

Well, I still believe Kes was suffering from dimentia.
So, why try and make a logical conclusion from a chaotic mind?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

exodus, I even said OP, silly guy!

 

[Lynx]

The "Dementia Theory" is rather flawed, to say the least.

The real Kes would never hurt any of her friends on Voyager. Not to mention that the real Kes would never harm Janeway or blame her for anything in the past. Janeway actually saved Kes's life in "Sacred Ground". Since the creature we saw in "Fury" did seem to "remember" a lot of things in the past, she would probably have remembered that too.

In fact, the creature we saw in "Fury" did seem to have a very clear memory when it came to past events. Someone suffereing from dementia wouldn't have that ability.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

In fact, the creature we saw in "Fury" did seem to have a very clear memory when it came to past events. Someone suffereing from dementia wouldn't have that ability.

Long-term memory is not affected in the same way.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Alzheimer-s-Disease-1005/Dementia-Alzheimer-s.htm

So, yes, Kes could remember the past while having no real recollection of things that happened a few months ago.

I get it. You don't like "Fury". You'd prefer it if the epsidode never exsisted, so it's easier (or more plausable) to just argue the fact that Kes wasn't really in this episode. We all cope with bad episodes in our own way.

However, everyone involved in the writing, acting, and production of this episode says it is really Kes. Sometimes, no matter how much it sucks, you just have to at least acknowledge that fact.

That being said, I'd much prefer if "Fairhaven" and "Spirit Folk" never happened. I'd like to pretend the whole thing was nothing more than a holonovel, and no one on Voyager ever saw that barkeep swinging around yelling Kathryn's name at the top of his lungs.

It happened. I know it did. I'll argue it didn't until I'm blue in the face. It's what makes me... me, I guess.

 

[Lynx]

In fact, the creature we saw in "Fury" did seem to have a very clear memory when it came to past events. Someone suffereing from dementia wouldn't have that ability.

Long-term memory is not affected in the same way.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Alzheimer-s-Disease-1005/Dementia-Alzheimer-s.htm

So, yes, Kes could remember the past while having no real recollection of things that happened a few months ago.

I get it. You don't like "Fury". You'd prefer it if the epsidode never exsisted, so it's easier (or more plausable) to just argue the fact that Kes wasn't really in this episode. We all cope with bad episodes in our own way.

However, everyone involved in the writing, acting, and production of this episode says it is really Kes. Sometimes, no matter how much it sucks, you just have to at least acknowledge that fact.

That being said, I'd much prefer if "Fairhaven" and "Spirit Folk" never happened. I'd like to pretend the whole thing was nothing more than a holonovel, and no one on Voyager ever saw that barkeep swinging around yelling Kathryn's name at the top of his lungs.

It happened. I know it did. I'll argue it didn't until I'm blue in the face. It's what makes me... me, I guess.

You're right about my opinion of "Fury". Even if the "Dementia theory" was totally flawless and the episode itself was it too, I would continue to deny that the creature in the episode was the real Kes and refuse to accept the events in the episode.

As for the statement of those who were involved in the writing, acting, and production of this episode, well they deliberately insulted me and all other fans of the character so I contradict that with refusing to accept what they did come up with.

As for "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folks", they were terrible bad episodes who do end up on my "ten worst episodes" list but none of them included the almost sadistic character destruction we had to watch in "Fury".

As for the real Kes, the latest story I read about her, she was still alive and well.

 

[exodus]

exodus, I even said OP, silly guy!

Sorry, I guess I must of had a "senior" moment.

See, which ties into dimentia.
Even when I'm off topic, I'm on topic.

 

[kimc]

You responded to exodus's statement that TPTB hadn't bothered with any other ethnicity. You used the Irish as an example of another that had been treated like the American Indian. We have argued that the presentation was different.

You tried to get off "Tattoo" by bringing up Fair Haven.

No, I used "Fair Haven" to counter the statement made that no other culture was misrepresented in Star Trek. Discussing "Tattoo" was never my intention and I'm done with this discussion with you.

More like made my point. She didn't really care who died on Voyager as long as the young Kes was never there to begin with. So what if they all ate a poisonous plant? So what if Seven died? So what if the EMH remained obnoxious? At that point, she didn't care.

Exactly. For Kes it wasn't about Janeway or Neelix or any other individual. It was about changing the past to hopefully improve her future. It wasn't until she was reminded that she had cared for these people at one time that she decided she could live with her present circumstances after all.

Funny, how in this episode Kes tries to do what Janeway did in "Endgame"...

 

[exodus]

You responded to exodus's statement that TPTB hadn't bothered with any other ethnicity. You used the Irish as an example of another that had been treated like the American Indian. We have argued that the presentation was different.

You tried to get off "Tattoo" by bringing up Fair Haven.

No, I used "Fair Haven" to counter the statement made that no other culture was misrepresented in Star Trek.

Still, that's not exactly what I said.
I didn't say anything about "misrepresentation".
I did say, that they've never explored any Earth based culture before, why start with Chakotay? Then I even listed a host of main characters. The point I believe Teya is making is "Tattoo" still predates "Fair Haven".
So they still didn't try any explore Earth based cultures until after "Tattoo".
So it all does ties into the subject of the conversation we were having at the time.
However, I also mentioned you bringing up "Fair Haven" reminded me of "Up the Long Ladder", which is a better representation of screwing up an Earth based culture rather than "Fair Haven" which is meant to be fiction within fiction and purposeful stereotype for entertainment purposes.

...and I hope this concludes it.

 

[teya]

You responded to exodus's statement that TPTB hadn't bothered with any other ethnicity. You used the Irish as an example of another that had been treated like the American Indian. We have argued that the presentation was different.

You tried to get off "Tattoo" by bringing up Fair Haven.

No, I used "Fair Haven" to counter the statement made that no other culture was misrepresented in Star Trek.

Still, that's not exactly what I said.
I didn't say anything about "misrepresentation".
I did say, that they've never explored any Earth based culture before, why start with Chakotay? Then I even listed a host of main characters. The point I believe Teya is making is "Tattoo" still predates "Fair Haven".
So they still didn't try any explore Earth based cultures until after "Tattoo".
So it all does ties into the subject of the conversation we were having at the time.
However, I also mentioned you bringing up "Fair Haven" reminded me of "Up the Long Ladder", which is a better representation of screwing up an Earth based culture rather than "Fair Haven" which is meant to be fiction within fiction and purposeful stereotype for entertainment purposes.

...and I hope this concludes it.

Well said.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kirk spent a couple months fornicating with a Space Indian while he had amnesia.

If we were going to be forced to explore any space Indian culture, it'd be his illegitimate kids or grandchildren he left behind on that planet returned to their/his/her fathers seat prodigally.

A new Captain Kirk played by a Native American actor?

How awesome would that have been?