No conflict on TNG? Ha!
- Thread starter GalaxyX
- Start date
Well I would say that that a lot of the internal conflict in TNG was "mild" clashes within the friendship the crew had with each other.
For example, Crusher arguing with Picard over risking her life to treat wounded patients on a planet, or Riker and Ensign Ro not getting along, etc. etc.
It's very similar to TOS.
I've actually been watching TOS and TNG with my dad for the past 3 months straight, and even he's surprised, because he's a huge TOS fan but thought TNG was boring at first, but paying attention to detail, he's finding it quite similar. The only major difference is the technobabble is a lot higher in TNG.
While I can see where your comparisons relate between TOS and TNG in regards to the crew being more open about their opinions and views..... I think you should involve yourselves with DS9 and it's cast by watching it through like you did with TOS and TNG before you pass similar judgment you're complaining TNG got.
Kira wasn't going around beating up men... she was pretty angry and bitter in the first couple of seasons, but she wasn't going around beating the crap out of everybody, and gradually you see her character develop and become more mature when she begins to trust the Federation and Sisko.
In regards to Sisko yelling orders, that's pretty rare and imo, Picard shouts his orders more then Sisko does..... but of course when Sisko does get angry and yells his orders... you certainly hear it lol..... he even "Intimidated" Worf
But I personally believe that when TOS came out, people were accustomed to the command structure you'd see in our military, in that Kirk laid out the orders and everybody did what he said without question or it'd be insubordination..... that's what people expected back then.
But when TNG came about, the Federation and Gene's view of how humans and other aliens interact would have evolved and adjusted to the time the show was aired.... you couldn't air another Star Trek that was stuck in the 60's.... the audience needed more depth.
But also, the show was also supposed to show people speak up for themselves and what they believe in.... to not just sit idly by when they felt something was unjust or wrong.... that each of us can make a difference, big or small, but only when we assert ourselves...... but Picard was still there to haul in the reins in case things got out of hand.... and when someone went against his wishes and they did something wrong because they truly believed in what they were doing, most times he'd see where their heart was, give them the Starfleet lecture, but also give them the human response in that he understands what they did and why and goes a bit lenient on discipline because he'd know they learned their lessons the hard way already.
Now I mentioned before that what got me into Star Trek was TNG, and I was a huge fan growing up.... but DS9 grew on me like a fungus and today, while TNG will always have a place in my cold and evil heart, DS9 imo was better.
After the first two seasons of DS9, you see Kira grow and mature, keep in mind that she was fighting Cardassians for all her life up until just shortly before Sisko arrived on DS9.... one can not change overnight from such a situation and it takes time to shift out of such a frame of mind. By the end of the series, she has her attitude in check more, she's more calm, more approachable, and shows her softer side more often, much like many of the other main characters.
In regards to Sisko and Picard.... Picard always had guilt and remorse for being the Borg's instrument in assimilating and killing so many of his fellow officers and Picard felt he still held some responsibility for what Locutus did.... Sisko lost his Wife at Wolf 359 at the hands of Locutus/Picard and it was still fresh in his life... at the time, Sisko was still contemplating whether or not to stay in Starfleet because wearing the uniform reminded him of how he lost Jennifer..... Picard knew he lost his wife and was greatly affected by Wolf 359 and Picard knew that he (Picard) wasn't the only one hurt during the Borg incident. In fact, I'm sure Sisko wasn't the first person in Starfleet to give him a hard time over what happened.... but perhaps Picard knew they both needed this.... Sisko needed to get some of this off his chest, and Picard needed to face what those affected by what he was a part of were going through.
And putting Sisko on report wasn't going to solve the problem, nor would it have helped Sisko remain in Starfleet or take the assignment of DS9 which Starfleet needed at the time.
Sisko and Picard had no personal friendship/relationship and thus talking about the issue like chums wasn't going to happen.... both Picard and Sisko weren't that kind of person at that time..... so when Sisko accepted what happened to his Wife, he learned to understand that his anger and hatred towards Picard was ill-placed and that for him to move forward, he needed to forgive Picard. By the way Sisko changed his attitude towards Picard at the end and his tone, nothing more was needed to be said between them.... Picard knew he was being forgiven and they were both moving forward.
imo anyways.
Last edited:
I'm sorry... but why do all the female characters need to act like prissies all the time and male characters need to be macho men?
If any of the ST characters were "Always" something, then they'd be as you complained, One Dimensional.
You really.... and I mean really didn't follow through the show very well did you?
If what you say was indeed true and her and every other character was as horrible as you make them out to be, I wouldn't have gotten into DS9 in the first place and would have left my interest in just TNG.
Granted, when DS9 first came out, I wasn't interested in watching it and felt the characters were a tad on the shallow side compared to TNG, but after a couple of years and after TNG was over, I took the time to concentrate on DS9, the overall story and its characters, and they were a lot more in-depth then I originally thought.
And when I think about it, in the first couple of seasons of TNG, the characters were equally shallow in their development as those in DS9.... for example, Tasha was pretty shallow as a character and Worf always seemed angry and hateful towards everybody around him.... but while Tasha showed promise before she died, Worf over the seasons developed into a more deep character then originally seen in the first couple of seasons..... so TNG isn't so perfect in this aspect either and had the same issues with character development as DS9 did at the start.
You never saw her relationship with Odo? You never saw her grow to like Sisko and them become friends? You never saw Kira carry the O'Brien's baby and be the baby's Godmother? You never saw her care and watch over Dukats' daughter?
If you just don't like DS9, fair enough, to each their own, but your excuses are unjustified and ignorant to the actual depth the DS9 characters had... and shows a clear bias towards TNG and how shallow their characters were at the start of the series.
I don't think anybody said he was in the right, just that they understand where he was coming from, which Picard saw as well, which is why he didn't drag him through the wringers.
Have your wife killed by the direct or even indirect actions of someone and then come face to face with that person and tell me how well you'd handle talking to them.
You can't exactly speak for Picard anymore then I can and be anymore right.... only Picard can tell us what he was thinking or what he would have said.... the fact is, Sisko wasn't being insubordinate, he just wasn't using a friendly tone towards Picard and Picard at the same time, stood up to Sisko's attitude in equal fashion and told him this was his assignment whether he liked it or not, and Sisko said he'd do the job because he was ordered to.
I suggest you look up the definition of what "Insubordination" is before you start claiming someone was.
Another clearly ignorant statement showing your bias towards the characters.
Sisko, for the record, didn't "attack" Q... Q suggested he wanted to fight, which he didn't, Q put him in the ring, and Q punched him multiple times before Sisko eventually defended himself and hit him back.
So exactly how does that make him an idiot? Should he have remained there like an idiot and just be punched in the face for a couple of hours?
Picard never hit Q, because Q never tried to beat him up.
I just find it difficult to understand how you have have such devotion to TNG and ignore the same faults and character design complications they had through the series, yet have no issue displaying hypocrisy in quite an ignorant fashion as you do towards DS9.
I'm not trying to Defend DS9 here.... I've seen a few people comment on things they didn't like about the show, episodes and/or the characters in the past, but they had legit arguments for their positions.... you're just generalizing the characters and the show in quite an unfair, inaccurate and clearly biased manner that shows that you can not critique the show in an objective manner.... AND you're doing exactly what you complained others do towards TNG (ie: generalize based on ignorant perspectives from not really watching and taking in the depths of the show)
I don't like DS9 or Voyager, nope never watched a single ep of either and don't intend to.
So you can bet, I'm probably biased as hell. But oh well, eh? Interesting post.
So you can bet, I'm probably biased as hell. But oh well, eh? Interesting post.
I always thought Picard should have apologized to Sisko. Okay, so he wasn't really in control when he killed Sisko's wife, but to sit there behind his nice table, sipping tea on his giant luxury liner and tell Sisko as Starfleet officers we don't always have the luxury of serving in an ideal environment... Let's just say I lost a little respect for Picard at that moment. It was nice to see Sisko make Picard lose his bladder control when he growled, "In... the... mean... tiiiiiime!!!"
You've never watched them, but you know you don't like them? You sound like my kids; they know they hate foods they've never tried.
ENT-D was hardly the ideal environment itself a lot of the time, otherwise they wouldn't be in as much danger as they encountered...
This comment makes it sounds like you watched the pilot and maybe part of the first season, then either stopped, or stopped paying attention. Over seven seasons, Kira is written through an extremely broad range of emotions and attitudes, toward men and everything else. This actually includes a period of time in seasons 3 and 4 where the writers probably let her drift a bit too far toward the role of sex object and victim. Fortunately that tendency never comes to dominate the character either, but at any rate Kira certainly isn't limited to being the man-hating ball-buster you are describing: she is written as being attracted to men and even somewhat vulnerable to the charms of ladies' men like Riker and Shakaar.
Back on topic, TNG is not primarily driven by conflict between the main cast. There is occasionally some conflict of course, but mostly it is disagreement about what should be done in a given situation or on a particular mission. That's fine. The show's dynamic is not really that of a drama, but of an adventure story. One can compare it to the Lord of the Rings in that respect, or The Three Musketeers, or Treasure Island, or really any story where the basic idea is that a group of heroic characters set out into the unknown and encounter obstacles in their path that they must overcome together.
There is certainly some disagreement between the members of the Fellowship of the Ring, for example, but not enough to make it a good drama. Mostly it's stuff like: do we go through Moria or over the mountain pass? Does that make the LotR bad drama? No, it makes it a great adventure story: it's about the adventuring group working together to overcome a challenge/enemy/obstacle that comes from outside the adventuring group, not from within. Even the conflict within the group is generated largely by the external enemy (as is the case with Boromir). Similarly, the Three Musketeers and D'Artagnan don't spend a lot of time arguing among themselves: they go out, kick butt, take names, outduel the Cardinal's guards and the British nobles, defy the enemy, save the kingdom, that sort of thing.
TNG is mostly an adventure story, so the main dynamic is not conflict within the crew, but the crew coming together to deal with an external problem. That's really true of all of Trek, to a greater or lesser extent. DS9 has more conflict within the main cast than TNG to be sure, but it's still largely an adventure story, where much of the conflict is generated by an external enemy: Bajoran fanatics, Cardassians, aliens of the week, the Klingons, the Dominion.
EDIT: I think one could probably argue that our culture is currently less comfortable with pure heroic adventure than with a sort of drama/adventure hybrid that involves a mix of internal and external conflict. This is DS9 moreso than TNG, so in that sense DS9 has aged better than TNG. To return to the LotR example, the movies added a lot of disagreements between the characters that aren't in the book, partly due no doubt to the perception that the pure heroic adventure of the books needed to be fleshed out a bit with dramatic elements to be palatable as popular entertainment.
Last edited:
Even if he stopped watching after the pilot or didn't pay attention, saying that Kira was "angry at men" makes so little sense that can only be a case of a viewer projecting some issues of his own (with women he seems as "man-hating ball-busters") since it's not supported by anything we saw on screen. Kira was never pissed off at everyone she meets, was not pissed at every man she met, and when she was angry at a specific man, it certainly wasn't because of their gender. Her relationship with Sisko was strained at first because she didn't trust the Federation and Starfleet, which would change over time (as soon as season 1, in fact). Bashir pissed her off in the pilot by stupidly calling Bajor wild frontier or however he put it; later on they got along OK. She did bust Quark's balls, but so did Sisko and, of course, Odo. It's not like she was ever prejudiced in some way towards men. She was prejudiced towards Cardassians, but she was starting to change her perspective even in season 1; Duet was a crucial moment in her growth, as she learned to see Cardassians as individuals and showed compassion for a Cardassian for the first time. Over the next seasons, she would find a father figure in a Cardassian legate/dissident, take care of Dukat's daughter, and fight in the Cardassian resistance movement.
Early on, Kira was very angry and traumatized - she had been born in occupied Bajor and she had been fighting practically all her life, since she was 12 years old; at the start of DS9, the occupation had just been over. A life of violence had been all she knew. Over the next few seasons, we see her healing and adjusting to the life in peace, and learning to live a life as something more than a fighter; we see her become more relaxed, more open and friendlier, letting go of her prejudices, starting to enjoy the peaceful life on the station, learning to trust her Starfleet colleagues on DS9, developing a friendship with Dax, and - since season 2 and Bareil, having romantic relationships. She was at her most relaxed and peaceful in season 3 and 4 - which might have made some people feel that she had lost her edge, which I don't agree with - before seasons 5 and 6 threw her into circumstances in which she had to go back to her old role as a fighter. Kira is quite a complex character, and besides the angry unforgiving fighter, there's the deeply spiritual person, there's the compassionate and caring person, and there is a woman who is interested in romance and strongly sexually attracted to men. (But, true to her character, she can't let herself break her own moral principles for the sake of an attraction : she tells Dax that she does find Riker charming, but she is in a relationship - and a humorous take on her attitude is seen in The Way of the Warrior, when she even punched a holographic character for courting her married character.
) Maybe the writers weren't able to come up with many storylines in the middle seasons of DS9 that would showcase an edgier Kira; but I didn't see her portrayed as a sex object any more than any of the male characters was a sex object for having love interests (though one might say that Odo's unrequited love for her placed her into the role of an unwitting object of someone's romantic love for far too long). Despite her vulnerability to ladies men's charms, I don't think she was ever portrayed as a helpless victim. I didn't see her getting so giddy over a man to throw away reason and abandon her principles. This did not happen with Riker or Shakaar. Though it would have happened if she had had an affair with Dukat, as the writers intended at one point. That would have certainly pushed her into the victim category, so we can be grateful to Nana Visitor that it didn't happen.Well, I may watch one or two eps one day, but I just don't prefer them.
Last edited:
I am inclined to agree, though to be fair, "Man-hating ball-buster" was an expression I used in a somewhat facetious manner, and is perhaps a bit of a caricature or exaggeration of the position I was arguing against.
You are the preacher, and I am in the choir
I find that Kira is one of the most complex and yet coherent characters that Trek has produced, and perhaps the most.Yeah, I think there is point where her portrayal is drifting towards a cliché of sexual victimhood that would have been unfortunate. However, I also think the writers eventually avoid this pitfall and the character emerges as more fully realized for the experience, with no doubt a very strong helping hand from Nana Visitor.
In season 4 especially, the writers are using Dukat as a way of asking questions about what direction Kira's character will take: Where's the fire?/Where's the passion?/On the station you're just a glorified administrator./You seem to have a taste for powerful men, etc. Fortunately the writers end up coming up with satisfying answers and the character moves on from there.
Wow, when I think of the TNG forum I think of people standing around agreeing with one another in a beige room that smells slightly of sawdust, I didn't realise that fun discussions could break out here.
So why does Kira need to be "feminine" just because she's a woman? Why is she expected to adhere to a gender stereotype if Geordi isn't expected to adhere to a racial stereotype? My opinion is that she shouldn't, she can be whoever she wants to be so long as she's an interesting character, and as far as I'm concerned she was a very interesting character. That's not to say that she was always a rough, tough sort, and to claim that she never showed vulnerability only displays a lack of attention skills from the OP.
If you just plan to rewatch DS9 to criticise it then I'm afraid I'll have to pass.
DS9 and Voyager were both written by writers from TNG (as well as some new writers) such as Ron Moore, René Echevarria, Brannon Braga, Jeri Taylor, Joe Menosky and Michael Piller, so if you liked TNG then you're bound to find things to like in either of those two shows. Give both of them a chance, then come to a decision.
As for conflict in TNG, there was enough to satisfy the premise of the show. This was a show about humanity's best and brightest working together and overcoming problems, there wasn't a need for too much conflict in the show. Too much conflict would have been unbelievable. Ensign Ro brought some conflict to the crew in a believable way, by being an outsider that clashed with some of the other officers.
Obviously, nobody actually said that because if anybody had said that they would have been rightly criticised for being a racist douchebag. If anybody had even implied it then they would have been criticised for being a racist douchebag. Geordi was a person, he wasn't a racial stereotype and it didn't matter if he was black or not, nor should it.Not a real comment said:
So why does Kira need to be "feminine" just because she's a woman? Why is she expected to adhere to a gender stereotype if Geordi isn't expected to adhere to a racial stereotype? My opinion is that she shouldn't, she can be whoever she wants to be so long as she's an interesting character, and as far as I'm concerned she was a very interesting character. That's not to say that she was always a rough, tough sort, and to claim that she never showed vulnerability only displays a lack of attention skills from the OP.
If you want to rewatch DS9 as a hater, but with an open mind, then I would be very interested in reading your opinions, and I'm sure many others would too.
If you just plan to rewatch DS9 to criticise it then I'm afraid I'll have to pass.
I grew up with TNG, it was the only Star Trek I knew, and I still very much love the show. I didn't think I was going to like DS9, the original trailers for Emissary seemed boring, and the first season doesn't inspire confidence. But I grew to love DS9 even more than I loved TNG and I consider it to be one of my favourite series of all time. You'll never know whether you'll like DS9, or Voyager, until you sit down and watch them.
DS9 and Voyager were both written by writers from TNG (as well as some new writers) such as Ron Moore, René Echevarria, Brannon Braga, Jeri Taylor, Joe Menosky and Michael Piller, so if you liked TNG then you're bound to find things to like in either of those two shows. Give both of them a chance, then come to a decision.
As for conflict in TNG, there was enough to satisfy the premise of the show. This was a show about humanity's best and brightest working together and overcoming problems, there wasn't a need for too much conflict in the show. Too much conflict would have been unbelievable. Ensign Ro brought some conflict to the crew in a believable way, by being an outsider that clashed with some of the other officers.
If you want to rewatch DS9 as a hater, but with an open mind, then I would be very interested in reading your opinions, and I'm sure many others would too.
If you just plan to rewatch DS9 to criticise it then I'm afraid I'll have to pass
I guess a lot of my bias is simply retaliation for the unfair attacks TNG gets from the DS9 crowd.
Not so fun when it's other way around is it?
You mean <name withheld, but it begins with an N>? Yeah, he gets on my nerves a bit. This whole "Niner crowd" thing really needs to stop because it has been demonstrated time and time again that it doesn't really exist, it's just two or three guys that most of us Niners disagree with.
Do you see me criticising TNG? I love TNG, I think it was a great series with some fantastic characters and stories. I prefer DS9 overall, but TNG is still a great series.
LOL ok cool. To be fair, I have seen almost the entire series, but only once, and I could have missed episodes here and there.
1st Season was really really clunky. I liked how Sisko and the gang had the balls to blow up the wormhole to stop the Dominion from coming thru even if it was just a simulation. I loved O'Brien and Keiko's relationship. It was very realistic (the only one in DS9 I found watchable, sorry). Bashir was a stuck up prick at first, but I warmed up to him. I even felt sorry when he wanted to have a relationship with that girl he healed of her autism, and she freaked out. O'Brien summed it up quite nicely "You just didn't want to be lonely. Nobody does!"
I liked the episode where O'Brien lived 20 years in prison in a 2hr accelerated time. I could feel his despair and totally understood his reaction at blasting a hole thru his head with a phaser gun. And I liked Martok (and I don't even like Klingons that much)
I liked the episode with the Valiant, and all the Starfleet Cadets freaking out at what to do by themselves. I liked the "Sacrifice of Angels" battle. I was cheering when those 2 Galaxy Class ships where feeding it to that Cardassian Ship (This scene was movie worthy). I liked how Garak had the balls to try and destroy the Founder homeworld (it's the only thing I like that the character did, for the most part I hated the asshole).
There's a lot of good stuff in the series for sure, but to me, no way does it compare with the slick polished work on good TNG episodes like "BOBW" or "Time's Arrow".
I have more respect for you now that I see you have watched the series. If you honestly just don't like something, okey dokey.
I love TNG too, it's practically tied with DS9 IMO.
I love TNG too, it's practically tied with DS9 IMO.
GalaxyX, i am so with you on sisko.
i hated him from episode one, when he acted like the world's biggest bitch to a man whose probably saved his life (and the rest of earth) more than anyone will ever know.
I mean, if you're a starfleet commander, you'd think you woulnd't be such an emotional baby... you would think he would REALIZE that the borg are KNOWN for STEALING free will from ANYONE who has it. Does sisko think he woulnd't have killed his own wife if he was assimilated? Of course he would have. He was just such a punk.
it was insulting how the ds9 writers made picard act like a little cowardly bitch. i agree that is not in his personality at all to back down like that.
i agree that he was always shouting for no reason, and that kira chick was worse than ensign ro. then again, i find ALL Bajorans to be annoying. it seems like nearly every single bajoran character save one or two is some kind of walking cliche (that was true on TNG, so you can imagine my distaste when i discovered how prominent they are in the story of ds9.. ughhh)
you are so right about how contrived and fake it is for this lame trend in sci fi to make female characters butcher than any man on the show, ala starbuck, kira.
I don't mind strong female characters, but you don't have to make them unrealistically butch. it's more demeaning to women imo than so called "weak" women like counselor troi, because it just reeks of political correctness and insecurity. tasha yar said it best.. "you taught me how to be strong, without losing touch with my feminine side" (Sorry, not an exact quote)
Also agree with the conflict on TNG. I thought there was a good amount of conflict for people who are professional. Professionals don't bicker and whine over little minutia like in DS9.
dont get me started on all the religious BS in ds9. that's just NOT star trek
i apologize to any DS9 fans if i offend you. There WERE a lot of things about the show i liked. worf, odo, quark, tribbles episode, some other things here and there.
I think there is more of a rift between ds9 fans and TNG fans than the fans of any of the other treks, which is ironic because they were on at the same time. One just seems to cater to the viewer who needs DARKNESS and CONFLICT and EMOTIONALLY driven decisions... the other focuses more on wonder, and exploration, and striving to improve yourself.. IMO the latter is what star trek is about. i also thought TNG did comedy wayyy better. and comedy is huge for me in star trek.
the only thing ds9 does better is the theme music
i hated him from episode one, when he acted like the world's biggest bitch to a man whose probably saved his life (and the rest of earth) more than anyone will ever know.
I mean, if you're a starfleet commander, you'd think you woulnd't be such an emotional baby... you would think he would REALIZE that the borg are KNOWN for STEALING free will from ANYONE who has it. Does sisko think he woulnd't have killed his own wife if he was assimilated? Of course he would have. He was just such a punk.
it was insulting how the ds9 writers made picard act like a little cowardly bitch. i agree that is not in his personality at all to back down like that.
i agree that he was always shouting for no reason, and that kira chick was worse than ensign ro. then again, i find ALL Bajorans to be annoying. it seems like nearly every single bajoran character save one or two is some kind of walking cliche (that was true on TNG, so you can imagine my distaste when i discovered how prominent they are in the story of ds9.. ughhh)
you are so right about how contrived and fake it is for this lame trend in sci fi to make female characters butcher than any man on the show, ala starbuck, kira.
I don't mind strong female characters, but you don't have to make them unrealistically butch. it's more demeaning to women imo than so called "weak" women like counselor troi, because it just reeks of political correctness and insecurity. tasha yar said it best.. "you taught me how to be strong, without losing touch with my feminine side" (Sorry, not an exact quote)
Also agree with the conflict on TNG. I thought there was a good amount of conflict for people who are professional. Professionals don't bicker and whine over little minutia like in DS9.
dont get me started on all the religious BS in ds9. that's just NOT star trek
i apologize to any DS9 fans if i offend you. There WERE a lot of things about the show i liked. worf, odo, quark, tribbles episode, some other things here and there.
I think there is more of a rift between ds9 fans and TNG fans than the fans of any of the other treks, which is ironic because they were on at the same time. One just seems to cater to the viewer who needs DARKNESS and CONFLICT and EMOTIONALLY driven decisions... the other focuses more on wonder, and exploration, and striving to improve yourself.. IMO the latter is what star trek is about. i also thought TNG did comedy wayyy better. and comedy is huge for me in star trek.
the only thing ds9 does better is the theme music
Last edited:
Similar threads
