Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

[Sci]

Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

Why? They're not gods and the Federation knows that. Hell, the Federation knows that its officers essentially had to talk them into stopping the Borg the same way they would talk any other reluctant political actor into something. They know they're not gods, they're just people with powerful technology that the Federation does not yet possess.

The federation believed they're just aliens, not gods, until now - as every interaction with such superbeings proved. Until now, the federation never tasted the taste of true insignificance

Yes it has. It was rendered utterly helpless and insignificant by the Organians well over a hundred years earlier, and that didn't completely change their culture.

Now, the federation KNOWS the distance between itself and these supercivilizations

It's always known the distance between itself and those supercivilizations. So what? You keep calm and carry on. You rebuild; you grieve your dead, and you thank your new allies.

(63 BILLION DEAD can do that) - no more optimistically deluding itself that there's some equality to be had between itself and anything out there

The Federation never had any delusion of equality of power between itself and those supercivilizations. Once again, you're taking modern American arrogance about its own power and applying it to the Federation, and that just doesn't hold water. The Federation has had its ass kicked before, and has had its lack of equal power with so-called "supercivilizations" spelled out before. Hell, the Federation had to beg the Prophets to help during the Dominion War.

Guess what? The Federation still only views the inequality as a physical state, not a mental or emotional or intrinsic state.

PS - federation officers talked the Caeliar into NOTHING. Hernandez (now a Caeliar, a half-divine being) informed them about their role in creating the borg;

And the Federation is obviously going to view Hernandez as being one of their own. Hell, they even had her wearing Federation Starfleet uniforms. They'd just look at her as a Federate whose biology has been altered with alien technology.

the Caeliar then decided to benevolently save humanity - but they decided this on their terms, according to their morals and values, with no interference from 'mere mortals'.

No, actually, they did it on Hernandez's terms, according to her morals and values, following her plan. And Hernandez's values are Federation values.

Again, the only way your view of the Federation works is if the Federation was so immature as to not understand before the Invasion that it was not the most powerful entity in the galaxy, that there were limits to its power, that there were some crises that if they were to happen would be impossible to defend against. The only way your argument works is if the Federation's understanding of its standing in the galaxy is akin to the United States's understanding of its standing in the world: The most powerful political actor against which no one else can or ever could stand. The only way your argument works is if the Federation was as deluded before the Borg Invasion as the United States has been for the last several decades.

The Federation was not deluded. They almost lost the Dominion War. They've almost been defeated by the Borg before. They've been saved by supercivilizations before. They've been manipulated by supercivilizations before, and they've manipulated supercivilizations back in return. The Federation is not cowed, and is not deluded, and understands that differences in physical power do not translate into natural hierarchies.

I mean, hell, the Federation resisted the Beings' attempt to get the Federation to genuflect just a few years beforehand, and they were at least as powerful as the Caeliar. Why would the Federation bow to the Caeliar but not the Beings (who actually DID want to be worshipped)?

Edited to add:

PS2

The "never give up" spirit was not extinguished at all, and Federation forces kept fighting right up to the bitter end.

Picard didn't lost the spirit to 'never give up'?

Picard is one guy, not the UFP incarnate.

Those starfleet forces that were only trying to commit seppuku, not even trying to come up with something creative, only trading shots, waiting to be snuffed off by the borg didn't loose the spirit?

No, they were trying to buy as many extra seconds as possible for more civilians to evacuate. They realized they had no tools with which to defeat the Borg, and no time to generate new tools -- so they used the tools they had to buy as much time as possible for more people to evacuate. That's called heroism, not losing your will to fight.

The whole thalaron weapon fiasco was a symptom of this passive, defeatist mindset - what's the point of using it? it won't work anyway.

No, the thalaron weapon mindset was a symptom of the Federation not wanting to do something it views as horribly immoral. Now, you and I may think it's silly for that weapon to be taboo, but the fact remains that they were unwilling to violate their own moral code in the name of survival. That's not having your spirit broken, that's holding on to your values.

PS3 - I'm not american, Sci - as I've told you before.

I don't remember having discussed that with you before, but fair enough and I apologize for the assumption. But you're still taking a very American attitude towards power -- one that I suppose is shared, to a lesser extent, by the other major industrialized countries -- and applying it to the Federation. But the Federation is not and has never been as deluded, or as arrogant, as modern America and modern first-world countries are.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sci

Watch 'Q, who'. Watch any of the episodes dealing with Q or other superbeings. Read David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide you yourself quoted.
Observe the federation's, starfleet's responses.

Until now, the federation definitely believed it can act meaningfully on those levels. Not anymore.

Dominion? Even borg? Almost? These powers are relatively on the federation's level. And the federation prevailed each time - confirming its belief that it can handle anything out there.
Organians? You compare their intervention - accompanied by minimal changes in the federation - with 63 BILLION dead?

The events of the 'Destiny' trilogy demonstrate with overwhelming force humanity's insignificance by comparison to the 'gods'.

PS - 'Destiny' makes it clear that Hernandez is a Caeliar, that she transcended humanity. She admitted this herself. Thematically, she is the half-divine being that achieves full divinity at the end, as opposed to the 'mere mortals' she benevolently smiles upon.

PS2 - The morality behind not using the thalaron weapon makes no sense when even superficially examined - it's even contradictory with the characters' actions within the trilogy.
For details, read this thread a few pages back.

PS3 - "They realized they had no tools with which to defeat the Borg"
Exactly. They gave up even trying to prevail. They gave up trying to find a solution. As I said - passive, defeatist behaviour.
In the past, Picard - and many others - were many times in positions with seemingly impossible chances of succes. They didn't give up and - guess what - they prevailed; their creativity and courage found a way. Not now - now, the borg broke them; now, they didn't even try.
Again - for details, read this very thread a few pages back.

PS4 - "I don't remember having discussed that with you before"
That discussion over 'is the typhon pact good or bad'.

 

[Sci]

Sci

Wath 'Q, who'. Watch any of the episodes dealing with Q or other superbeings. Read David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide you yourself quoted.
Observe the federation's, starfleet's responses.

Until now, the federation definitely believed it can act meaningfully on those levels.

Um, no, it didn't. Picard was certainly convinced that there couldn't possibly be anything out there the Federation couldn't cope with in "Q Who?," but, as I said above, Jean-Luc Picard is not the United Federation of Planets made flesh.

The Starfleet Survival Gude? That one made it clear that the Federation views these extradimensional entities as creatures that can, at best, be emotionally manipulated if they reveal enough of their psychological profiles to Starfleet officers, and who at worst must simply be endured. I don't remember anything in it about the Federation having any delusion of equal power with those entities.

Dominion? Even borg? Almost? These powers are relatively on the federation's level.

And yet the Federation almost lost to the Dominion, too. Obviously, the Federation is used to the idea that it could lose, that it is not invincible, that something else could beat it, that someone else could be more powerful than them.

And the federation prevailed each time - confirming its belief that it can handle anything out there.

You haven't proven that the Federation had a belief that it could handle anything out there. Hell, we've had characters in Trek novels talking for years about how the Federation could not handle the Borg if they ever attacked en masse -- just check out Section 31: Abyss or Mission Gamma, Book Four: Lesser Evil. Hell, everybody in the Time to Kill/Time to Heal duology was convinced that if there were a war with the Klingons, the Federation would lose, from the President to the Chief of Staff to Section 31 to the Admirals to Picard.

The Federation did not have a belief that it could handle anything out there.

Organians? You compare their intervention - accompanied by minimal changes in the federation - with 63 BILLION dead?

Yes, I compare having every single starship and weapon across thousands of light-years of space simultaneously being rendered nonfunctional in the hours right before a war, and then having an alien appear in the middle of the Presidential Office on live interstellar television, to the Borg Invasion in terms of demonstrating to the Federation how powerless it is in comparison to supercivilizations.

Obviously, the comparison won't work in other respects. But in terms of demonstrating that the Federation is powerless against a supercivilization, I think they're thoroughly comparable.

The events of the 'Destiny' trilogy demonstrate with overwhelming force humanity' insignificance by comparison to the 'gods'.

"Insignificance?" In what respect?

The Borg Invasion demonstrates that there are powerful civilizations out there that can kill many people and that can hijack complex computer systems like the Borg Collective.

It doesn't demonstrate that anyone is insignificant -- hell, if Federates are so insignificant (and please stop just talking about humanity -- the Federation encompasses many different species, not just Humans), why'd the Caeliar bother to save them in the first place?

It doesn't demonstrate that anyone is insignificant, it demonstrates that some civilizations are more physically powerful than others, that's all.

The Federation is more mature than to equate significance with possessing power.

PS - 'Destiny' makes it clear that Hernandez is a Caeliar, that she transcended humanity. She admitted this herself.

She's referring to the way in which she became a part of Caeliar culture, not to "transcending humanity." It's the equivalent of an Englishman who spends most of his life in America declaring that he is now an American; it doesn't mean he's ceased being English, it just means he's become part of a culture into which he was not born. Like what happens all the time in real life.

Thematically, she is the half-divinr being that achieves full divinity at the end, as opposed to the 'mere mortals' she benevolently smiles upon.

Um, that's a metaphor, and, more to the point, that "half-divine being" only manages to save the Caeliar and the Federation by adopting the Federation's belief in pluralism and multiculturalism -- tearing down the Caeliar's xenophobic, insular walls and bringing in new cultures and new ideas in the form of the liberated drones.

So the idea that she's a god who smiles benevolently upon mortals is quite silly -- yes, there are parallels to religious iconography, but, if anything, it's an inversion of traditional religious concepts, because the "gods" are only saved from their own short-sightedness because they adopt "mortals' " value systems.

 

[Myasishchev]

^I think my point is that those hunter-gatherers would be used to the idea that there's a lot of stuff in the world around them that's vastly beyond their power to control or comprehend, so having much of their band killed off by industrialized warfare wouldn't affect them significantly differently on a psychological level than having much of their band killed off by a flood or a disease. They'd pretty much chalk it all up to the action of forces beyond their control, and they'd be accustomed to accepting such forces as part of their reality.

For us, in the industrialized world, we can't easily comprehend the idea of a political or technological power being so completely beyond us, but we're still used to the idea that natural disasters are simply "acts of God" -- i.e. phenomena so immensely beyond our level of power that there's nothing we can do but try to anticipate, take precautions, run away if necessary, and then clean up afterward. That's why it's better to think of something like the Borg or Caeliar or Organians or Q as a force of nature rather than a political power, an "enemy" or an ally. Forces of nature are the only analogy that we industrialized peoples have left for the concept of something so completely beyond our power.

But the federation is much like us: they have - had - confidnce in their abilities. They've encountered superbeings before and always managed to participate meaningfully in the exchanges with them.
Until now: the Caeliar proved to be so far beyond the federation so as to negate any possibility for humans to act on something resembling their level.

Also - I understand the characterization of the borg as a force of nature. But I don't agree.
The borg posses advanced technology, intelligence, sentience, they're not blind natural forces. Therefore, the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' apply to them - with all that they imply.
They are, essentially, an army driven by hunger, the 'will to conquer'; and they, too, have proven far stronger than the federation.

It seems to me that this would lead to a loss of confidence in one's own forces, to pessimism, no longer 'boldly' go for fear of encountering something like that, rather staying home where at least the federation can claim to matter.
Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

I wouldn't think that would be the lesson most Federation citizens would draw. All of the supposed "gods" that the Feds have encountered necessarily arose from humbler origins, often similar to humanity in many regards. The lesson is to advance and develop weapons and capabilities on par with or exceeding those of the Borg and others. The interesting thing is not whether they would pursue this (obvious) goal, but whether they would do so regardless of the material or moral cost.

They might not even be that far behind, given that the Borg have never really been portrayed as inconceivably advanced. I mean, their technology, if not replicable by 24th century engineering, remains knowable to 24th century science. Hell, most of the time humans are shown to be much smarter than the Borg (humans, for example, actually shoot people that beam aboard their ships).

Of course, I don't reckon that this is what will happen, because Trek humanism, and the literary difficulty involved, pretty much preclude the Federation from evolving into a posthuman society.

 

[flemm]

One major point of contention in this thread is the question of whether or not the Caeliar intervened because they adopted the Federation's values as transmitted by Captain Hernandez.

I'm not sure where I stand on this, but I would like to hear more ideas on which values, precisely, she transmitted.

A couple of observations:

1) Persuading God or the gods to intervene on humanity's behalf is the traditional role of the semi-divine mediator. Certainly that is at least a rough description of Christ's role in Christianity, though I'm sure there are parallels elsewhere.​

2) Doesn't the Federation have a policy of non-intervention (the Prime Directive) when it comes to civilisations lacking warp drive that is not entirely unlike the Caeliar's policy of non-intervention in the affairs of civilisations such as the Federation or the other alpha-quadrant powers?​

In light of the above, is convincing the Caeliar to intervene in accordance with Federation values or, in a sense, contrary to them? Of course, the Caeliar are already involved insofar as they were partly responsable for creating the Borg. But once they know this aren't they obliged to intervene according to their own values, or is this due to Hernandez' influence as well?​

Beyond that, would the Federation's experience with the Caeliar cause Starfleet to re-evaluate the logic of the Prime Directive?​

 

[Sci]

PS2 - The morality behind not using the thalaron weapon makes no sense when even superficially examined

And you may think that the taboo is silly, but the fact remains that refusing to break a taboo in the name of survival is a form of holding on to your values, not losing them. Whether or not those values objectively make sense is an entirely separate issue.

PS3 - "They realized they had no tools with which to defeat the Borg"
Exactly. They gave up even trying to prevail. They gave up trying to find a solution. As I said - passive, defeatist behaviour.

Waitaminute. You're going to tell me that if you're facing a man holding a gun on another person, and you know that the only way to save that person is to jump in front of the gun and take the bullet, that that means that you've become passive and defeatist?

Because that's what we're talking about. We're talking about Starfleet officers who realize they don't have the tools to stop the Borg and don't have enough time to develop new tools if they want to save innocent lives. Now, if your options are, "Retreat to a safe spot to develop new tools for however long that takes while the Borg kill as many people as possible" or "Fight them as long as you can in order to buy more time to allow more civilians to run away," are you seriously going to say that taking the latter option rather than the former is the same thing as being passive and defeatist?

In the past, Picard - and many others - were many times in positions with seemingly impossible chances of succes. They didn't give up and - guess what - they prevailed; their creativity and courage found a way. Not now - now, the borg broke them; now, they didn't even try.

Again, bullshit. They tried, and they tried very hard. They used the tools they had, and they developed as many new tools as they could think of that wouldn't violate their code of ethics, and the tools just weren't working.

Recognizing that you're out of time and need to sacrifice yourself to save more lives is not defeatism. That's another form of resistance. Maybe not your preferred form, but it is resistance.

Again - for details, read this very thread a few pages back.

I saw it. It was bullshit. You never actually proved any damn thing.

PS4 - "I don't remember having discussed that with you before"
That discussion over 'is the typhon pact good or bad'.

Good to know, but I don't really care.

 

[Sci]

2) Doesn't the Federation have a policy of non-intervention (the Prime Directive) when it comes to civilisations lacking warp drive that is not entirely unlike the Caeliar's policy of non-intervention in the affairs of civilisations such as the Federation or the other alpha-quadrant powers?​

In light of the above, is convincing the Caeliar to intervene in accordance with Federation values or, in a sense, contrary to them?​

Well, this is basically a function of the fact that the Federation's 24th Century interpretation of the Prime Directive is itself inconsistent with Federation values of egalitarianism and multiculturalism. Instead of treating non-warp species as equals whose sovereignty must be respected, the Federation treats non-warp species as primitives too ignorant to handle even knowing about the outside galaxy.

But no one's perfect -- not even the Federation.

Of course, the Caeliar are already involved insofar as they were partly responsable for creating the Borg. But once they know this aren't they obliged to intervene according to their own values, or is this due to Hernandez' influence as well?

I'd say it was Hernandez. After all, she was the one who talked them into allowing the liberated drones to join the Caeliar gestalt. That idea -- that bringing new voices and new beliefs in to your society can benefit your society -- is a distinctly Federation idea that the Caeliar never had before her.

Beyond that, would the Federation's experience with the Caeliar cause Starfleet to re-evaluate the logic of the Prime Directive?

I'd hope so. If nothing else, it might demonstrate the Federation's moral hypocrisy in allowing pre-warp civilizations to be destroyed by natural disasters the Federation could easily have prevented.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sci

"Watch 'Q, who'. Watch any of the episodes dealing with Q or other superbeings. Read David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide"

These show the federation believed it can contribute meanigfully on those beings' level. "Manipulate", "we're ready to encounter" anyone?

'Destiny' unequivocally proves that this is not the case. It unequivocally proves that humans are mere insects by comparison to the Caeliar or others like them. And it's not just some event that only receives some news feeds back home or that is known only to some analists who have access to top secret data. 63 BILLION dead will burn this realization into the minds of humans, vulcans, etc.

PS1 - Hernanzed's values were her own. The federation didn't convince her of its values or of anything else. Similarly, the Caeliar's values were their own - Hernanded just informed them that the borg were their responsibility and they made their decision.
The federation had nothing whatsoever to do with stopping the borg; the Caeliar made the decision on their own and acted on their own, from beginning to end, with no interference.

PS2 - Again, Sci - about the so-called morality of not using the thalaron weapon and about how starfleet only tried to commit seppuku - read this thread a few pages back, The issues were covered extensively.

PS3 - "I saw it. It was bullshit. You never actually proved any damn thing."; "Good to know, but I don't really care."
Sci, you really do have an anger management problem. You're clearly just trying to be contrary and start a fight - as you always do after a few posts exchanged with someone who doesn't share your opinions. I have no interest in one.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

But the federation is much like us: they have - had - confidence in their abilities. They've encountered superbeings before and always managed to participate meaningfully in the exchanges with them.
Until now: the Caeliar proved to be so far beyond the federation so as to negate any possibility for humans to act on something resembling their level.

Also - I understand the characterization of the borg as a force of nature. But I don't agree.
The borg posses advanced technology, intelligence, sentience, they're not blind natural forces. Therefore, the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' apply to them - with all that they imply.
They are, essentially, an army driven by hunger, the 'will to conquer'; and they, too, have proven far stronger than the federation.

It seems to me that this would lead to a loss of confidence in one's own forces, to pessimism, no longer 'boldly' go for fear of encountering something like that, rather staying home where at least the federation can claim to matter.
Until now, the federation viewed the superbeings it encountered as aliens - it didn't feel insignificant by comparison; from now on, the federation may well view them as gods - to be worshipped or feared.

I wouldn't think that would be the lesson most Federation citizens would draw. All of the supposed "gods" that the Feds have encountered necessarily arose from humbler origins, often similar to humanity in many regards. The lesson is to advance and develop weapons and capabilities on par with or exceeding those of the Borg and others. The interesting thing is not whether they would pursue this (obvious) goal, but whether they would do so regardless of the material or moral cost.

They might not even be that far behind, given that the Borg have never really been portrayed as inconceivably advanced. I mean, their technology, if not replicable by 24th century engineering, remains knowable to 24th century science. Hell, most of the time humans are shown to be much smarter than the Borg (humans, for example, actually shoot people that beam aboard their ships).

Of course, I don't reckon that this is what will happen, because Trek humanism, and the literary difficulty involved, pretty much preclude the Federation from evolving into a posthuman society.

I can very well see both views coexisting.

How will the federation adapt to these new realizations?
Some may try to 'evolve', to reach the level of these superbeings - transhumanism, ascension, etc - maybe this current will be the inheritor of the federation's traditional optimism? Not 'we can deal with anything out there' anymore, but 'we'll soon reach a level when we can deal with anything'; some may fear these 'gods'; some may try to obtain their favor; some may be overjoyed that there is transcedental 'order' within the universe.

 

[flemm]

How will the federation adapt to this new realizations?
Some may try to 'evolve' to reach the level of these superbeings - transhumanism, ascension, etc; some may fear these 'gods'; some may try to obtain their favor; some may be overjoyed that there is transcedental 'order' within the universe.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said that I thought Losing the Peace barely scratched the surface of how such an event might affect the Federation. Yes, there is devastation, and the Federation will have to recover from that, but surely trauma on such a scale would have far-reaching social, philosophical, political and potentially religious implications as well?

The whole Federation experienced this trauma, not only a small group of highly-trained Starfleet officers. There's no reason to assume that the population's reaction would be uniform. On the contrary, I think we have to assume there would be a wide range of responses.

Certainly a surge of interest in transhumanism or ascension might manifest itself. I think a re-evaluation of the Prime Directive might also be considered as a result of the Federation's salvation at the hands of a more advanced civilisation that initially had a policy of non-interference. What about genetic enchancement? If the Federation needs to get smarter, more advanced in a hurry, this might be another avenue to explore.

Not all of the changes would be negative. Some might be positive, at least in the long run. But I do think there would likely be some significant consequences beyond dealing with the material devastation itself.

 

[Sci]

Sci

"Watch 'Q, who'. Watch any of the episodes dealing with Q or other superbeings. Read David Mack's Starfleet Survival Guide"

These show the federation believed it can contribute meanigfully on those beings' level. "Manipulate", "we're ready to encounter" anyone?

No. It showed that the Federation believed that it had to endure such creatures, and manipulate them if possible, in order to be left alone.

Yes, Picard was an arrogant prick in "Q Who?". As I've said before, Picard is not the Federation incarnate, he's one guy.

And, no, believing you can occasionally manipulate an extradimensional entity does not mean you have any delusions that that entity couldn't annihilate you if it wanted. A bee might try to sting you, but it still knows to fly away if you try to swat it.

'Destiny' unequivocally proves that this is not the case. It unequivocally proves that humans are mere insects by comparison to the Caeliar or others like them.

And the Federation -- and why do you keep citing humans specifically, by the way -- already knew that its level of power compared to supercivilizations was akin to the level of power possessed by insects compared to sentients.

PS1 - Hernanzed's values were her own. The federation didn't convince her of its values or of anything else.

Well, no, it didn't, because the Federation gained those values from Humans when Humans like Hernandez helped create the Federation.

Similarly, the Caeliar's values were their own - Hernanded just informed them that the borg were their responsibility and they made their decision.

The federation had nothing whatsoever to do with stopping the borg; the Caeliar made the decision on their own and acted on their own, from beginning to end, with no interference.

No, they had to be persuaded to liberate the drones and then accept them into the gestalt. They had to be persuaded to adopt the Federation value of multiculturalism (a value the Federation inherited from Humans) by a Federate. (And, yes, as Hernandez was alive when the Federation was founded, she would have immediately gained Federation citizenship even if no one in the Federation knew she was alive.)

PS2 - Again, Sci - about the so-called morality of not using the thalaron weapon and about how starfleet only tried to commit seppuku - read this thread a few pages back, The issues were covered extensively.

Yes. Extensively poorly. You never once proved that being willing to sacrifice yourself to save other people when there is no other way to save innocents constitutes defeatism.

PS3 - "I saw it. It was bullshit. You never actually proved any damn thing."; "Good to know, but I don't really care."

Sci, you really do have an anger management problem.

Dude, I wasn't even angry when I wrote that. I'm sorry if you interpret swearing as an automatic indictor of anger, but it's not. And, no, I don't really care where you said you weren't American in the past, because it's not relevant to anything.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

How will the federation adapt to this new realizations?
Some may try to 'evolve' to reach the level of these superbeings - transhumanism, ascension, etc; some may fear these 'gods'; some may try to obtain their favor; some may be overjoyed that there is transcedental 'order' within the universe.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said that I thought Losing the Peace barely scratched the surface of how such an event might affect the Federation. Yes, there is devastation, and the Federation will have to recover from that, but surely trauma on such a scale would have far-reaching social, philosophical, political and potentially religious implications as well?

The whole Federation experienced this trauma, not only a small group of highly-trained Starfleet officers. There's no reason to assume that the population's reaction would be uniform. On the contrary, I think we have to assume there would be a wide range of responses.

Certainly a surge of interest in transhumanism or ascension might manifest itself. I think a re-evaluation of the Prime Directive might also be considered as a result of the Federation's salvation at the hands of a more advanced civilisation that initially had a policy of non-interference. What about genetic enchancement? If the Federation needs to get smarter, more advanced in a hurry, this might be another avenue to explore.

Not all of the changes would be negative. Some might be positive, at least in the long run. But I do think there would likely be some significant consequences beyond dealing with the material devastation itself.

It may be interesting to see how humans, vulcans, andorians, tellarites react to this trauma - partly different, due to their separate philosophies, mindsets, taboos? What about Starfleet - how will its mission change?
And, of course, the federation is not the only society affected. What will be the klingon reaction be? The romulan, cardassian one?

 

[JarodRussell]

I could be mistaken, but humanity's interest in transhumanism was already there in Roddenberry's TMP novelization. And that was the 23rd century. 24th century humans would be even farther. Not Starfleet though, because, as far as I remember, those "new" humans were incapable of performing space travel without getting themselves lost in the vast variety of alien cultures. Hence, the people serving in Starfleet are a bit dumber and a bit more xenophobic than the rest of humanity.

 

[JD]

I'm sorry but I've gotta go with Sci on this one. The Federation has been dealing with beings like the Caeliar for at least 200+ years, and non of those encounters changed their values. Sure the Caeliar saved the Federation, but they've known this whole time that there were beings like the Caeliar out there that were capable of getting them out of a situation like this for 200+ years, so this won't come as that big of a shock to them.
I also don't really see any kind of worship or anything along those lines going on now. Like others in the thread have already stated the Federation has known about beings like the Caeliar since ENT, and we never once saw them view them as anything more than a different type of life form, we have never once seen them approach or interpret them as anything close to divine, and I really don't see why the Caeliar would change that.
As for the general population of the Federation, I really don't see their reactions being that different from the members of Starfleet. I don't know how much as been said about in the shows or books, but I have a pretty good feeling that alot of the major discoveries made by the Starfleet ships over the years have been reported in the media, just like they are today. So by the time of Destiny pretty much everyone in the Federation is probably well aware of the encounters with the Organians, and Metrons, and probably even the Q by the time of Destiny. At this point it has been nearly 20 years since the Ent.-D was launched, so by now most of it's missions have most likely been in the public record for a while (other than a few that have proabably been declassified) and so the public would be familiar with all of the advanced races they encountered. Same goes for Voyager, whose return seemed to be a pretty big deal.

 

[Thrawn]

That said, I wouldn't object to a story that involves formations of new religious cults in the wake of Destiny. Might be kind of interesting.

 

[Christopher]

So, is the ultimate lesson of the encounter with the Borg that Picard was wrong, that the Federation is not ready and that the wake-up call didn't come in time: their well-being and survival in fact depend primarily on the caprices (benevolance/malevolence) of the god-like supercivilisations that surround them? It seems that this is what you are suggesting above.

Actually, that's the diametric opposite of what I've been saying above. I emphatically reject the interpretation that the Federation was a passive entity dependent on the choices of the supercivilizations. That's defining the situation purely on the level of actions and ignoring where the ideas come from. Yes, it was the Caeliar who took action against the Borg, but it was the Federation who talked them into doing so. For that matter, it was Starfleet's history of actions against the Borg over the years, particularly Janeway's destruction of their transwarp hub, that precipitated the invasion in the first place, by demonstrating to the Borg that the Federation was a genuine threat to them rather than merely a minor inconvenience. So it's absolutely wrong to say that Destiny paints the Federation as a passive or "unready" power. Yes, the Federation doesn't have as much raw might as these supercivilizations, but in terms of agency, in terms of responsibility for instigating both the crisis and its outcome, the Federation is by far the most important player on the board.

To draw an analogy from history, Benjamin Franklin as an individual had nowhere near the physical power of the French military, but if Franklin hadn't convinced the French to use their military might to support the American Revolution, America would've lost the war. So just because Franklin was less powerful doesn't mean he was less important or less responsible for the outcome.

Wouldn't this fundamentally alter the Federations' basic values and the purpose of Starfleet? If what you describe above is the reality of galactic politics, then wouldn't the Federation's priority have to be to gain the favor of these galactic superpowers on whose actions its salvation depends?

It isn't the reality of galactic politics. It's a complete misrepresentation, in fact. In terms of ideas, in terms of initiative, it's usually the Federation taking the lead in these instances. They're not seeking anyone's "favor" or "indulgence" -- they're engaging with these greater powers and convincing them to see things from the Federation's point of view. Indeed, it's the Federation's refusal to back down from its values, its insistence that it's not going to give up what it believes in just because it's outpowered, that has enabled it to hold its own in interactions with these supercivilizations.

In short, don't confuse raw power with political or social agency. Sometimes it's the meek who inherit.

The Federation has interacted with the Q as anything other than helpless bystanders subject to the Q's whims exactly once, when a Q outfitted the U.S.S. Voyager with technology to allow it to enter the Q Continuum and somehow operate Q weaponry. Every other time the Federation has interacted with the Q, they've been completely subject to the Q's whims -- and even then, they could only operate Q weaponry and enter the Q Continuum with Q help; had such help been withdrawn, they would have been rendered powerless.
...
In every interaction the Federation has had with extradimensional entities, the Federation has only survived at the whim of those entities. They've never "participated meaningfully" in those "exchanges;" they've simply endured them.

I agree with most of what you say, Sci, but here I think you're making the same mistake of defining agency only in terms of physical action or power. There have been other cases where the ideas and ideals of Starfleet characters have persuaded the Q to rethink their actions, or played a role in affecting a decision in Q affairs.

Meaningful participation doesn't only mean being equal in power. It means having an effect on the decisions that are made, and that's often more about the ideas you have to offer than about the power or technology you have.

Why? They're not gods and the Federation knows that. Hell, the Federation knows that its officers essentially had to talk them into stopping the Borg the same way they would talk any other reluctant political actor into something. They know they're not gods, they're just people with powerful technology that the Federation does not yet possess. Is it impressive? Certainly. Is the Federation grateful to the Caeliar? Of course. Will the Federation investigate the Caeliar to see if there is any way of neutralizing any hypothetical threat the Caeliar might hypothetically pose? Probably, and they'll probably discover there's nothing they can do to them. And will the Federation worship the Caeliar? No, because they still only view them as people.

I agree that the entire Federation is not suddenly going to abandon secular human(oid)ism and start worshipping the Caeliar. But part of the reason for that, in addition to the reasons you offer, is that the Federation is not one person. It's trillions of different people from different cultures with different values. It's possible that there could be many people within the UFP, particularly refugees or survivors in need of comfort, who respond to these events by embracing religious belief that focuses on the Caeliar as saviors. And there may well have been people in the past who chose to perceive the Organians or the Q or whoever as divinities, just as the Bajorans choose to perceive the wormhole aliens as divinities. Assuming the entire civilization would become Caeliar-worshippers in lockstep is just as ludicrous as you say, but it would also be ludicrous to assume that absolutely nobody would respond in that way. After all, the whole idea behind the UFP is supposed to be that it's inclusive and multicultural.

1) Persuading God or the gods to intervene on humanity's behalf is the traditional role of the semi-divine mediator. Certainly that is at least a rough description of Christ's role in Christianity, though I'm sure there are parallels elsewhere.

And persuading a more powerful secular entity to intervene on a weaker society's behalf is frequently the role of a diplomat; see my Ben Franklin example above. It's overly simplistic to assume that the only kind of entity that can be far greater in power than oneself is a divinity. Most of the nations on Earth have long lived in a world where they've been greatly outmatched by one or two superpowers -- the British Empire, the Soviet Union, the United States -- and have found their fates dependent on the policies and whims of those superpowers whether they liked it or not. Yet they didn't worship the Raj or the Soviets or Uncle Sam as gods.

2) Doesn't the Federation have a policy of non-intervention (the Prime Directive) when it comes to civilisations lacking warp drive that is not entirely unlike the Caeliar's policy of non-intervention in the affairs of civilisations such as the Federation or the other alpha-quadrant powers?

The Caeliar's noninterference policy is much more extreme than the Federation's. Any principle taken to an absolutist extreme becomes unhealthy. And the Caeliar's policy, whatever their stated rationale for it, really more about being isolationist and uninvolved than it is about safeguarding others' right to self-determination.

In light of the above, is convincing the Caeliar to intervene in accordance with Federation values or, in a sense, contrary to them?

The Prime Directive prohibits imposing Federation values or policies on others. It doesn't forbid the Federation from engaging in dialogue with other powers or attempting to convince them to adopt different policies.

Beyond that, would the Federation's experience with the Caeliar cause Starfleet to re-evaluate the logic of the Prime Directive?

Only to the extent that the experience shows the danger of taking the Prime Directive to too great an extreme. But many prior Prime Directive stories have revolved around the idea that the Directive needs to be flexible in its application, that too absolutist an approach to it is not the right way to go. So it's not really an unprecedented idea.

 

[William Leisner]

I'm only skimming this thread (damned day job, and its restrictions on surfing over the course of the work day) but this bit jumped out at me:

How will the federation adapt to this new realizations?
Some may try to 'evolve' to reach the level of these superbeings - transhumanism, ascension, etc; some may fear these 'gods'; some may try to obtain their favor; some may be overjoyed that there is transcedental 'order' within the universe.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said that I thought Losing the Peace barely scratched the surface of how such an event might affect the Federation. Yes, there is devastation, and the Federation will have to recover from that, but surely trauma on such a scale would have far-reaching social, philosophical, political and potentially religious implications as well?

The whole Federation experienced this trauma, not only a small group of highly-trained Starfleet officers.

Actually, the direct trauma really was very limited. Something a lot of people have missed is the fact that the entire Borg Invasion, from the massacre at the Azure Nebula to the end, takes place in under twelve hours. There were people who slept through the entire thing. There were entire planets, like Alpha Centauri, for whom the attack at best effects them only tangentially.

As for the Caeliar... well, really, who even knows about the Caeliar? Yes, you have the advantage of having read a novel with multiple POVs spanning time and space, but within the world of this book, it's only the crews of those three ships -- and even their understanding of who these people were was limited to what Hernandez opted to relate. And she really didn't spend a lot of time with history and sociology lessons, what with a genocidal rampage in progress.

The majority of the Federation will never give a second thought to how exactly how their complete annihilation was averted... in no small part because they need to worry about recovering from their partial annihilation.

 

[Christopher]

Something a lot of people have missed is the fact that the entire Borg Invasion, from the massacre at the Azure Nebula to the end, takes place in under twelve hours. There were people who slept through the entire thing.

Well, the blitzkrieg attack starting at the Azure Nebula was that quick, yes, but the entire invasion, starting with the destruction of Acamar and Barolia, spanned six and a half weeks, with Destiny covering its final week.

 

[TerraUnam]

I guess Destiny gets the Pearl Harbor prize (Tora! Tora! Tora, 1970) where the film portrayal took about as long as the attack itself. Or in this case, reading the books takes at least as long, and likely longer than the actual fictional events portrayed.

 

[elaithin]

Granted it's been awhile - and you probably have much more detailed notes than I do - but I seem to remember a comment from Ezri saying 'months'. (Three seems to be ringing a bell.)