Fury Stupidity

[Guy Gardener]

It's a thin wedge of lime for the vodka miss.

But yes, I knew that.

They had/have supposedly an aural history memorized each generation detailing back 40 thousand years, so it's really quite obvious that as a people they are so in touch with the big picture that numbers like "15" and "42" are meaningless and indifferential compared to what must seem like the complete length of history.

On Sunday morning they they used to rerun about 4 or 5 scifi shows back to back on the local cable network. My girlfriend at the time didn't understand and didn't care, so to translate from my language how i might compare Stargate to farscape, for her, and the importance of how all this was for me, I would describe all of them TV series "in bulk" and any other show in the genre as "spaceships" ... Actually to be honest I would usually say the word three times each time progressively louder like Hamlet saying "words, words, words!" ...It might have been a childish way to communicate but she refused to accept their was a difference between Star Trek and Star Wars, and it was so taxing talking UP to her in the way regular people usually talk DOWN to simpletons.

Gods, I hated loving that woman.

 

[kimc]

Why suddenly did those in charge feel the need to explore Native American culture when they never bothered with any other Earth based culture before?

Well they bothered with the Irish in "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk"...

...and look how well THAT turned out!

Fair Haven was a holoprogram. It wasn't real.


Chakotay's culture was posited as real.


I'm sure that you can understand the difference.

The whole show and everything in it isn't real. However, the feelings of those watching it are. I remember some posters of Irish descent complaining about how their culture was portrayed in those two episodes. Since I'm not Irish myself I can't speak to that. I'm just promoting everyone's equal right to take offense.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Sometimes I have been annoyed over the stereotypes when it comes to certain people and their culture.

Not to mention unnecessary character destruction too.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

stereotypes

That's the advantage of scifi, take the "problems" of 20-21st cent Earth and paint it Orion Green, or Speckled Trill. Place the Fantasy holoprograms on pleasure planets like Raisa (sp?) or generic resorts like the cabana program so no one takes offense.

Role playing games, however, are just that... games. Whether "How to Host a Murder", "Dungeon & Dragons" or "Fairhaven". As an Irish descendent several generations removed from the homeland, I would have liked to take myself out of 24th century spaceflight and into 19th century Irish village life for the mere fact that "that life" was so much simpler than what they faced everyday on Voyager. And, like Disney, I suspect the harsher aspects of the 19th century were scrubbed clean.

The return of Kes in "Fury" was quite a shock, but I suspect that TPTB meant it to be so that there would be no question of Kes rejoining the ship.

The two things that I took away from the show, was that not all progress is necessarily beneficial, which Kes learned after her evolution and return to seek misguided "revenge" on Voyager.

The other thing was that now, the Ocampa on her homeworld had a chance at survival. The new evolved Kes was now going home, and about time. It was season 6, and the Caretaker had only given the subterranian Ocampa 5 years of energy to survive. With rationing, perhaps they stretched it another 2 years, but then what?

I see Kes as Ocampa's newest savior and perhaps that's why I don't disrespect the ep as others do.

 

[Joeman]

As I've said before as far as the "misrepresentation" if Irish culture, Tom freakin' Paris programmed it, and how many hundreds of years after the fact? I think the whole idea was for it to be somewhat off. It would have been more unrealistic had everything been perfect.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well my lot should be the first to be offended.

In the future, all we have to offer the federation is land to house criminals.

The law abiding citizens were probably force evicted off to Australia or some of the pacific islands to make way for the criminal element. Which means that the nation was discorporated and shut down. Murdered even.

It was we Kiwi's we were shat on by Voyager first.

 

[exodus]

Well they bothered with the Irish in "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk"...

...and look how well THAT turned out!

Fair Haven was a holoprogram. It wasn't real.


Chakotay's culture was posited as real.


I'm sure that you can understand the difference.

The whole show and everything in it isn't real. However, the feelings of those watching it are. I remember some posters of Irish descent complaining about how their culture was portrayed in those two episodes. Since I'm not Irish myself I can't speak to that. I'm just promoting everyone's equal right to take offense.

Every Earth based cultures, there representation and intent behind them on Trek is very real. It's one of the few things on the shows that are. So thank you for mocking all those that do take offense at the misrepresentation of their cultures by dismissing it as not real.


I think it would be wise if people of that heritage speak on portrail of their culture, instead of speculating what their emotional reasons behind it are.

 

[kimc]

As I've said before as far as the "misrepresentation" if Irish culture, Tom freakin' Paris programmed it, and how many hundreds of years after the fact? I think the whole idea was for it to be somewhat off. It would have been more unrealistic had everything been perfect.

Actually since cultures are always evolving it would be unrealistic to expect any culture shown hundreds of years in the future to look like it would today. Take the Irish thing - Janeway is supposedly American-Irish but that doesn't mean she would have the same cultural attitudes as today's American-Irish. In fact, she didn't seem to find the portrayal at all offensive (except for something about a pub sign but that was more of a correction).

Anyway, a pretty roundabout way to say I agree with your point but there you go. Tom programming an Irish holoprogram would be as authentic as me cooking an Indian curry which I've done but that's another story.

 

[teya]

As I've said before as far as the "misrepresentation" if Irish culture, Tom freakin' Paris programmed it, and how many hundreds of years after the fact? I think the whole idea was for it to be somewhat off. It would have been more unrealistic had everything been perfect.

Actually since cultures are always evolving it would be unrealistic to expect any culture shown hundreds of years in the future to look like it would today.

Thing is, we're not looking at *future* Native Americans when we talk about "Tattoo." We're talking about the past history. And since Star Trek is supposed to be our future, we're talking our past history.


So, according to Star Trek, exodus and I aren't fully human. That is exactly the same argument that the US government used to pursue a program of genocide, which makes what would have been simply a stupid plotline into something rather more offensive.


As an aside, I find it interesting that you say that Janeway should have found Seven's catsuit unpermissableb ecause of today's standards of dress, you say that C/7 is "icky" because of today's standards of what an appropriate age gap between partners is, yet say that "Tattoo" isn't such a big deal because cultures are changing.


Seems inconsistent. YMMV and most probably does.

 

[exodus]

As I've said before as far as the "misrepresentation" if Irish culture, Tom freakin' Paris programmed it, and how many hundreds of years after the fact? I think the whole idea was for it to be somewhat off. It would have been more unrealistic had everything been perfect.

Actually since cultures are always evolving it would be unrealistic to expect any culture shown hundreds of years in the future to look like it would today.

Thing is, we're not looking at *future* Native Americans when we talk about "Tattoo." We're talking about the past history. And since Star Trek is supposed to be our future, we're talking our past history.


So, according to Star Trek, exodus and I aren't fully human. That is exactly the same argument that the US government used to pursue a program of genocide, which makes what would have been simply a stupid plotline into something rather more offensive.


As an aside, I find it interesting that you say that Janeway should have found Seven's catsuit unpermissableb ecause of today's standards of dress, you say that C/7 is "icky" because of today's standards of what an appropriate age gap between partners is, yet say that "Tattoo" isn't such a big deal because cultures are changing.


Seems inconsistent. YMMV and most probably does.

 

[Lynx]

stereotypes

That's the advantage of scifi, take the "problems" of 20-21st cent Earth and paint it Orion Green, or Speckled Trill. Place the Fantasy holoprograms on pleasure planets like Raisa (sp?) or generic resorts like the cabana program so no one takes offense.

Role playing games, however, are just that... games. Whether "How to Host a Murder", "Dungeon & Dragons" or "Fairhaven". As an Irish descendent several generations removed from the homeland, I would have liked to take myself out of 24th century spaceflight and into 19th century Irish village life for the mere fact that "that life" was so much simpler than what they faced everyday on Voyager. And, like Disney, I suspect the harsher aspects of the 19th century were scrubbed clean.

The return of Kes in "Fury" was quite a shock, but I suspect that TPTB meant it to be so that there would be no question of Kes rejoining the ship.

The two things that I took away from the show, was that not all progress is necessarily beneficial, which Kes learned after her evolution and return to seek misguided "revenge" on Voyager.

The other thing was that now, the Ocampa on her homeworld had a chance at survival. The new evolved Kes was now going home, and about time. It was season 6, and the Caretaker had only given the subterranian Ocampa 5 years of energy to survive. With rationing, perhaps they stretched it another 2 years, but then what?

I see Kes as Ocampa's newest savior and perhaps that's why I don't disrespect the ep as others do.

There were the magic words: "There would be no question of Kes rejoining the ship."

How convenient that it did coincide with a letter campaign to have the character re-instated as a regular character on Voyager again. And then people question my theory about those in charge deliberately showing the finger to the Kes fans!

If the "Kes" we saw in that horrible episode was so old, senile and out of her mind, she would never survive a six year flight through Borg, Hirogen, Vidiian and Kazon space, a journey which the fast, heavy-armed Voyager had had difficulties to make.

Not to mention that her arrival to Ocampa was totally unnecessary since the Ocampa did download the Caretaker's knowledge before he died and probably have had some contact with the Ocampa on Suspiria's array too.

And why should she want to go back there anyway? That is a total contradiction to the real Kes who wanted to learn and explore space and who also wanted to go to Earth with the rest of thecrew.

 

[kimc]

Thing is, we're not looking at *future* Native Americans when we talk about "Tattoo." We're talking about the past history. And since Star Trek is supposed to be our future, we're talking our past history.


So, according to Star Trek, exodus and I aren't fully human. That is exactly the same argument that the US government used to pursue a program of genocide, which makes what would have been simply a stupid plotline into something rather more offensive.

Actually, I thought I was talking about the Irish. For what it's worth though when I first saw "Tattoo" I took the episode meaning to be that Native Americans were more than human. Not that that's any better - why should they be different than any other humans foibles and all?

As an aside, I find it interesting that you say that Janeway should have found Seven's catsuit unpermissableb ecause of today's standards of dress,

Actually according to the standards of dress on a starship. Counselor Troi was told to lose the jumpsuits and quite frankly she looked good in the uniform. Very professional. So did Seven for that matter.

you say that C/7 is "icky" because of today's standards of what an appropriate age gap between partners is,

Yes, I do find it icky by any standard.

yet say that "Tattoo" isn't such a big deal because cultures are changing.

Again, I thought I was talking about "Fair Haven", "Spirit Folk" and the Irish. For opinion on "Tattoo" please see above.

YMMV and most probably does.

YMMV?

 

[Guy Gardener]

your mileage may vary.

remember Bladerunner?

It's not the years, it's the mileage.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

your mileage may vary.

remember Bladerunner?

It's not the years, it's the mileage.

There's a whole TV Trope named that - Your Mileage May Very. You should check it out; very entertaining stuff.

 

[exodus]

Actually according to the standards of dress on a starship. Counselor Troi was told to lose the jumpsuits and quite frankly she looked good in the uniform. Very professional. So did Seven for that matter.

Troi is a Starfleet Officer, Seven is civilian.
Code of dress on a Starship doesn't apply to civilians.
It's also against the law to impersonate police, firemen or any persons in military without consent of authority. Seven only wore a uniform because she was a spy at the time.

 

[kimc]

Actually according to the standards of dress on a starship. Counselor Troi was told to lose the jumpsuits and quite frankly she looked good in the uniform. Very professional. So did Seven for that matter.

Troi is a Starfleet Officer, Seven is civilian.
Code of dress on a Starship doesn't apply to civilians.

If she were simply a passenger that would hold true but while not officially Starfleet she was a member of the crew who also had authority over Starfleet personnel.

 

[exodus]

Actually according to the standards of dress on a starship. Counselor Troi was told to lose the jumpsuits and quite frankly she looked good in the uniform. Very professional. So did Seven for that matter.

Troi is a Starfleet Officer, Seven is civilian.
Code of dress on a Starship doesn't apply to civilians.

If she were simply a passenger that would hold true but while not officially Starfleet she was a member of the crew who also had authority over Starfleet personnel.

...but still not authorized to wear a Starfleet Uniform.
Neelix was a member of the crew too and had authority while on away missions for supplies because as ambassidor he represented Voyager. He still wasn't authorized to wear a uniform. He only wore one while being trained as security under the authority of Tuvok.
Police, Firemen & military all have to earn the right thru offical training to wear a uniform of authority.

 

[kimc]

...but still not authorized to wear a Starfleet Uniform.
Neelix was a member of the crew too and had authority while on away missions for supplies because as ambassidor he represented Voyager. He still wasn't authorized to wear a uniform. He only wore one while being trained as security under the authority of Tuvok.

He also wasn't wearing a skin tight catsuit to the relief of some fans.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Actually according to the standards of dress on a starship. Counselor Troi was told to lose the jumpsuits and quite frankly she looked good in the uniform. Very professional. So did Seven for that matter.

Troi is a Starfleet Officer, Seven is civilian.
Code of dress on a Starship doesn't apply to civilians.

If she were simply a passenger that would hold true but while not officially Starfleet she was a member of the crew who also had authority over Starfleet personnel.

As a person who deals with the government and military, I can tell you this happens all the time. However, the people I send out to be leads on projects are not expected to wear a military uniform while they are there. In fact, that would probably end our contract with our client were that to happen.

Civilians work in military institutions all the time. They have a work dress code just like any other place of business, but that's all it is... a dress code. They do not wear the military uniform.

Seven's outfit covered all basic needs of a base dress code. It covered her completely from the neck down. The only issue with her outfit is that it's skin tight, but, given the fact that the officer in command saw nothing offensive or questionable about her dress, it was fine. Just because some of us perceive what she was wearing to be inappropriate doesn't mean that it was.

Ultimately, it's up the CO to decide dress code standards in a situation like that in regards to the civilians working within their command structure. Janeway made a call.



Maybe she liked oogling Seven?

 

[exodus]

...but still not authorized to wear a Starfleet Uniform.
Neelix was a member of the crew too and had authority while on away missions for supplies because as ambassidor he represented Voyager. He still wasn't authorized to wear a uniform. He only wore one while being trained as security under the authority of Tuvok.

He also wasn't wearing a skin tight catsuit to the relief of some fans.

Ahhh but unfortunately too my poor eyes, Will Riker's father did.

How could anyone forget that eye sore?