Supernatural5x21 "Two Minutes to Midnight"

[Lt. Trull]

Given the way they handled Death, he couldn't have had a stand alone episode. It would have been a five minute conversation and 35 minutes of filler.

I don't know about that. Lucifer could have given Death some demon bodyguards like the ones he gave Famine. Dean and Sam could have spent much more time looking death and killed the demons to get to Death, and it could have ended the same with with the surprise conversation at the end.

I just wished that Pestilence and Death had gotten way more scenes.

given death's temperment about his situation... death wouldn't suffer the bodyguards....
they'd all eventually meet their end.

 

[Checkmate]

I noticed there were a lot of significant moments in this episode that they didn't really focus on. One has already been mentioned (Crowley 'altruism'). But one of the really big ones is how Crowley essentially returned Death's sickle. Crowley's no dummy; he had to know Death would sense Dean coming from a mile away, and that he'd be able to get the sickle from him. He also likely had some inkling about the kind of deal Death would make.

So why did he return the sickle to him, except to make some kind of deal of his own? Maybe some kind of "never dying" deal, to keep him from suffering Lucifer's wrath?

 

[Lt. Trull]

how about a bunch of whatif's.... what if the reason that lucy has power over death is a bunch of death relic's or items....
Hmmmm.... like the sythe that dean returned to death that was... in the end.... returned...

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

Somehow I doubt Sam and Dean would stand much of a chance against a being who can just will them dead at any given moment.

You have a point but I don't see how that is any different than the angels like Zachariah and taking Sams lung out or giving Dean stage 4 stomach cancer, at will.

 

[Checkmate]

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a huge scheme on Crowley's part.

What if he made this deal with Death long before even mentioning it to the others? What if he didn't need Bobby to make a wish to find his location (and thus had to give him something in exchange for his soul; hence the "altruism")? It certainly fits his character a lot better as a master manipulator. I mean, how convenient was it that they just happened to park their car right across from the one pizzeria in Chicago that was housing Death (and it was going to a pizzeria that Crowley suggested they try before "discovering" that Death wasn't in the warehouse)?

Definitely seems like there's a lot more to this episode than a first glance suggests. It could explain why it felt like so much filler, when it was actually a lot of setting up for some big reveal in the coming episodes.

 

[hyzmarca]

I doubt Crowley is God; Dean's charm would have gone crazy if he were.

He's never been in the same room as it. The first time they met hm Castiel had it, and then at the end of Dark Side of the Moon Dean threw it in the trash.

 

[Checkmate]

He's never been in the same room as it. The first time they met hm Castiel had it, and then at the end of Dark Side of the Moon Dean threw it in the trash.

You honestly think Sam didn't pick it up when he did so?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

That picture of Bobby and Crowley was a classic, eh, Mutai-Sho Rin?

I still can't shake thinking that Crowley is God.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a huge scheme on Crowley's part.

What if he made this deal with Death long before even mentioning it to the others? What if he didn't need Bobby to make a wish to find his location (and thus had to give him something in exchange for his soul; hence the "altruism")? It certainly fits his character a lot better as a master manipulator. I mean, how convenient was it that they just happened to park their car right across from the one pizzeria in Chicago that was housing Death (and it was going to a pizzeria that Crowley suggested they try before "discovering" that Death wasn't in the warehouse)?

Definitely seems like there's a lot more to this episode than a first glance suggests. It could explain why it felt like so much filler, when it was actually a lot of setting up for some big reveal in the coming episodes.

So will Crowley be this season finale's Ruby in the doublecross?

 

[3D Master]

Death was friggin' awesome. Interesting that he essentially delivered the speech I had god as a trickster give the Winchesters about the grand scheme, or rather lack there of, of the things that Lucifer is doing.

Oddly enough, Death simply handing the ring over to Dean was exactly something I imagined he'd do; although in my mind he'd be smiling happily as he does so, and gently tossed over to highlight how completely the ring doesn't matter to him at all.

It never felt like Crowley was doing much manipulating at all this episode. Quite the contrary, it seemed that Death was the orchestrator. How does Crowley get his hands on the Scythe that turns red-hot if you're holding, and will teleport to its rightful owner, if Death doesn't want him to have it?

Also: if the Scythe can even reap god, it should be enough to kill Lucifer. Dean and the rest had the weapon to kill Lucifer in their hands.

 

[hyzmarca]

Having the weapon and using it are two different things. Gabriel's knife could have killed Lucifer, fat good it did him.

Between the TK, the precog, the time travel, and the the reality warping actually wounding him is quite difficult.

It's also questionable how much of Death's power is actually tied up in his Scythe. It could very well just be a trinket with sentimental value to him, one capable of killing practically anything, but still not enough to take out him or God (Crowley did say "rumored" to be able to kill Death). I'd like to think that Death is enough on his own and he really doesn't need the weapon.

 

[Servo]

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a huge scheme on Crowley's part.

What if he made this deal with Death long before even mentioning it to the others? What if he didn't need Bobby to make a wish to find his location (and thus had to give him something in exchange for his soul; hence the "altruism")? It certainly fits his character a lot better as a master manipulator. I mean, how convenient was it that they just happened to park their car right across from the one pizzeria in Chicago that was housing Death (and it was going to a pizzeria that Crowley suggested they try before "discovering" that Death wasn't in the warehouse)?

Definitely seems like there's a lot more to this episode than a first glance suggests. It could explain why it felt like so much filler, when it was actually a lot of setting up for some big reveal in the coming episodes.

I like that idea, but the fake altruism isn't necessary to make it work. Regardless of whether Crowley knew Death's location beforehand or not, he'd still be exchanging that information for Bobby's soul, so he wouldn't have to come up with the fake altruism to cover up the fact that Bobby recieved nothing, becaue Bobby did in fact get what he asked for.

 

[mswood]

The producers did say we would see God, though of course they might have changed their mind.

Given the Winchesters bloodline as vessels, the comment from Ash in "Dark Side of the Moon" about being unable to locate John and the show turning expectations on their ear with more mundane portrayals of grand beings i.e. lucifer in human form never seeing his true supernatural form same with the angels--I wouldn't be surprised if mid-battle dad literally steps in--given the familial allusions all season--to break up the fight and handle this "family squabble" that is threatening to destroy his sons with God in John's resurrected body. I could definitely see John agreeing if it meant saving his boys. It would also bring the series full circle. Or maybe not.

The more I think about it I am really liking it.

I think its something they would have done if they were ever able to get JDM to work with the show. Its one of the things that really frustrates me about this show is that the talent is often unavailable to return to the show.

JDM (in seasons 1-2) was first by Grey's meaning if they wanted him for anything thats what he had to do.

Same with Mark, and Lost this season.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

hmm yea i dunno about that unless there's total schedule conflicts, because he's barely been on Lost as Jacob as well, which is why i thought I'd see him more on this show, but evidently not

 

[startrekwatcher]

Given the way they handled Death, he couldn't have had a stand alone episode. It would have been a five minute conversation and 35 minutes of filler.

Hasn't that been the formula all season--35 minutes of filler then 5 minutes of interesting character stuff/plot revelations/mythology. Or maybe that might have just been how it felt to me.

 

[Checkmate]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "filler." It seems to have transformed it's definition of "material whose sole purpose is to waste time" to "anything I find boring or focusing on characters I don't like."

 

[startrekwatcher]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "filler." It seems to have transformed it's definition of "material whose sole purpose is to waste time" to "anything I find boring or focusing on characters I don't like."

To me "filler" within a serialized drama are episodes that are meant to pad out a season, aren't interesting in their own right especially compared to the arc material or within an episode filler could be padding to fill the 40 minutes out that doesn't seem worthwhile. Mileage may vary. Also episodes tonally that seem out of place like the string of comedies we got.

I felt a lot of episodes when you looked at them closely couldn't stand on their own but felt like a means to an end in seeding things. That's fine--I have no problem with set-up but everything else around it should be worthy too.

 

[Checkmate]

Let's see, we learned what Pestilence's goal was, saw the guys take him out and thwart his plan (save for the single truck that got away), we learned what happened to Castiel and that he has lost almost all of his angelic mojo, we saw Bobby regain his ability to walk albeit through sinister means, we learned about Death's sickle, we saw Dean encounter Death and learned that he was being controlled against his will by Lucifer, we learned that Death made a deal with Dean, we learned that Crowley is up to something else, and we learned that the boys now have all four rings.

You're right. Total filler episode where nothing happened. (In whatever crazy universe you inhabit.)

 

[startrekwatcher]

Let's see, we learned what Pestilence's goal was, saw the guys take him out and thwart his plan (save for the single truck that got away), we learned what happened to Castiel and that he has lost almost all of his angelic mojo, we saw Bobby regain his ability to walk albeit through sinister means, we learned about Death's sickle, we saw Dean encounter Death and learned that he was being controlled against his will by Lucifer, we learned that Death made a deal with Dean, we learned that Crowley is up to something else, and we learned that the boys now have all four rings.

You're right. Total filler episode where nothing happened. (In whatever crazy universe you inhabit.)

Where did I ever say that this episode was filler smarty pants. That comment was in reference to the season as a whole. My comments about this episode specifically mentioned how much ground of worthwhile relevant material was covered basically from wall to wall which was a good thing--but that can't be said of a great deal of episodes this season.

I don't mind standalone stories but they need to be interesting--they need not make a single reference to the mythology. The problem I have with SN is the standalones or ones with minimal relevancy to the arc are simply not that compelling. The only reason why I harp that the writers should incorporate it more and make it front and center has been because that seems to be the times where there is a spark to the writing because in part the writers can't just fall back on old ptropes and chestnuts they have to carve out new territory since the mythology is unique to their series.

There just isn't any excitement in SN anymore. No twists, no genuine sense of fear for the guys since they always come back to life, their "issues" are getting a little old, the monster stories or the monsters themselves aren't that fresh, the comedies and poking fun at the series was once a novel idea but has since been run into the ground by overuse.

 

[Roshi]

That picture of Bobby and Crowley was a classic, eh, Mutai-Sho Rin?

I still can't shake thinking that Crowley is God.

Dorian, Mutai-Sho Rin is a character from Babylon 5, isn't he? There is (or there was cuz it's been years since he last posted) a board member who goes by that moniker.
Mutenroshi is the one-track minded kung fu master from the Japanese animated series Dragonball.