Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

[Rojixus]

What future episodes establish is irrelevant because at the time I Borg was written, they hadn't happened yet! Let us get to the basic question: Was Picard wrong in I Borg? Yes he was. According to the Enterprise crew, the virus was sure to work and Picard (who was assimilated by the Borg) did not even mention the possibility that it may not work. The burden of proof is on you Anwar, not them or I. Until you have canon proof that the virus would have failed, you are just as wrong as Picard was.

 

[Anwar]

"Descent", that is all the proof I need.

As for the crew and Picard, it was just bad writing they never considered the possibility of it failing.

Was Picard wrong? No, you don't commit casual genocide. It would be NO different than if Kirk unleashed a virus to kill all Klingons/Romulans in TOS, or if the Feds allowed the virus to kill all Founders in DS9. You want Picard to do that to the Borg, then you agree with other Captains doing the same to their enemies as well.

And no, the Borg being a Collective makes no difference.

 

[Rojixus]

And no, the Borg being a Collective makes no difference.

How does it not make a difference? We have individual Klingons, Romulans and even individual founders (more or less). We do not have individual Borg drones who are still connected to the collective.

As for the crew and Picard, it was just bad writing they never considered the possibility of it failing.

Just because the writing of the episode does not support your flawed position does not diminish its quality.

"Descent", that is all the proof I need.

Descent was made after I Borg, so it is irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[Anwar]

No it doesn't, it was made by the same production team telling a story about the same character which clarified that the whole plot of "I, Borg" was pointless and doomed to failure if implemented. It came later, but still clarified the whole thing.

Being individuals or a Collective didn't matter, the Klingons Romulans and Founder showed that they were the Feds enemies (for their time periods). The Borg can also be made into individuals, their Collective broken. There's little difference, an enemy is and enemy.

And yes, that they didn't bother thinking that it might be less than perfect IS a major flaw which made the episode not that well-done nor thought-provoking on the issues discussed (such as this one).

As it stands, we are just dancing the same old tune of whether the virus would work or not. I believe it wouldn't, you and ProtoAvatar believe it would. I see the big-picture, you see the small immediate scenario. I see billions saved, you see imaginary billions potentially killed (since the Borg never killed billions afterwards).

 

[Rojixus]

Billions saved? Who was saved by Picard's cowardly decision? You say the virus could have somehow antagonized the Borg into launching a full invasion of the Federation but what is your proof? Don't you think the Borg would have been equally "antagonized" by the fact that the Federation could even conceive of such a virus? If you want to look at the big picture, why didn't the Borg send more cubes than they did in STFC? They sent a fleet of cubes to assimilate one planet of only 100,000 people, do you think they rate more of a threat to the Borg than a Federation of thousands of warships? Also, that Janeway did a lot to "antagonize" the Borg, why didn't the Borg send a fleet to subdue the Federation then?

In the end, maybe the entire argument is academic, Admiral Janeway did what Picard should have done and released a virus that effectively crippled the Borg, if not outright killed them off. She did the right thing, Picard didn't. THE BORG ARE WITHOUT MERCY, THEY DO NOT CARE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ASSIMILATED! Many people would rather be dead than assimilated, or at least that is what Picard thought. Also, just because I Borg refutes your main argument does not make it a bad episode.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Rush Limborg:

I answered your question PAGES ago.
Do you EVER read the responses to your posts? Apparently, responding to you is a waste of time:

Yes...I did.

And to be honest, I have spent quite a while going over what the fact that it's all fiction has to do with anything......and I still can't figure it out!

What I do know...is that the Dominion is also fictional--and therefore, your claim to my issue's irrelevancy, due to said fictional status of the Borg, is invalid.

So...once again, we are back to square one. The Dominion is fictional, just as the Borg is fictional.

Once again...what makes genocide against the Borg (which is fictional) practical and moral (due to the prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Borg), when you have previously stated that genocide against the Dominon (which is ALSO fictional) is impractical--because the ability to commit genocide presupposes, in your view, the ability to defeat the Dominion without genocide--and immoral, despite the similar prevention of the future slaughtering of innocent lives by the Dominion?

"Yes...I did."
Doubtful. Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

First - commiting genocide against non-combatants (such as the founders or Hiroshima/Nagasaki) is ALWAYS wrong - immoral, useless, unnecessary.
If the enemy (his army which you haven't touched) is stronger than you, he'll make you pay dearly for your crime - in blood.
If the enemy is far weaker than you - your genocide us completely gratuitous - you have many other optionns to deal with said enemy.

Second - what about an enemy army?
If this enemy army attacks you with genocidal intentions (such as the borg or Alpha Quadrant jem'hadar) you have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary.

If you're far stronger than the enemy army - such as, you can defeat them any time you want - eliminating this army is wrong simply because you have other realistic options for dealing with it.
The federation was not in this position with the borg. On the contrary. Starfleet was far inferior to the borg - there was no other realistic option to subdue the collective. The paradox was the federation's - and BILLIONS other beings' - ticket out of the grave. It was the only option to stop the collective, a genocidal army that continuously killed. It should have been used.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

double post

 

[ProtoAvatar]

And don't be afraid to go into details, Anwar.

I know the Borg have been around for millennia, have assimilated trillions and have encountered races more advanced than the Federation.

Picard&co knew this too, Anwar. That's beginner's information regarding the borg.
And, unlike you, Anwar, they knew much about HOW they assimilated those TRILLIONS - FAR beyond they stick needels in one's neck and inject one with nanoprobes.

The idea that they NEVER ran into ANYONE who tried a viral attack is so STATISTICALLY low that it's idiotic to think no one tried it before. This is common sense. The idea that the Feds could create some kind of virus based on two encounters that could destroy the Borg is also idiotic.

Idiotic? According to your biased speculations, Anwar.
NOT according to Picard&co - experts in this field.

But, Anwar, Picard - being a fictional character, created by the scenarists - IS this bad writing. If the script depicted him as a creep willing to sacrifice BILLIONS as long as he could fool himself that he fanatically followed his sacroant, rigid rules, THEN HE IS THIS CREEP.

I guess this makes Sisko and co creeps for not wiping out the Dominion with the virus as well. Since the continued existence of the Dominion is a threat that cannot be truly dealt with other than subjugation.

Straw man argument. Read my previous post for details.

 

[Anwar]

Billions saved? Who was saved by Picard's cowardly decision?

Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

You say the virus could have somehow antagonized the Borg into launching a full invasion of the Federation but what is your proof? Don't you think the Borg would have been equally "antagonized" by the fact that the Federation could even conceive of such a virus?

No.

If you want to look at the big picture, why didn't the Borg send more cubes than they did in STFC?

Because like I said, they don't care about the Feds that much to send such a force. The Feds are a fringe group that barely interest the Borg. The Borg have been shown to outright ignore other races and not assimilate them.

They sent a fleet of cubes to assimilate one planet of only 100,000 people, do you think they rate more of a threat to the Borg than a Federation of thousands of warships?

Yes.

Also, that Janeway did a lot to "antagonize" the Borg, why didn't the Borg send a fleet to subdue the Federation then?

What Janeway did to the Borg really isn't as big or as bad as the fandom made her actions out to be.

In the end, maybe the entire argument is academic, Admiral Janeway did what Picard should have done and released a virus that effectively crippled the Borg, if not outright killed them off. She did the right thing, Picard didn't.

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

THE BORG ARE WITHOUT MERCY, THEY DO NOT CARE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ASSIMILATED! Many people would rather be dead than assimilated, or at least that is what Picard thought. Also, just because I Borg refutes your main argument does not make it a bad episode.

The Borg will ignore species and not assimilate them, assimilated beings have been deassimilated and got over it. And "I, Borg" never explored its' ideas well enough to be anything more than mediocre.

 

[Rojixus]

Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

How do you know? You have no proof.

No.

Why do you think the Borg wouldn't be antagonized? Where is your proof?

Because like I said, they don't care about the Feds that much to send such a force. The Feds are a fringe group that barely interest the Borg. The Borg have been shown to outright ignore other races and not assimilate them.

Wouldn't blowing up one of their ships warrant at least two cubes if the Borg could be antagonized? What proof do you have?

Yes.

What proof do you have that a planet of 100,000 people is more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation?

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

What proof do you have of this?

You keep making these assertions without any facts to back them up. Your position is getting shakier and shakier. How would a planet of 100,000 people be more of a threat than the Federation? If you want anyone to take you seriously, YOU MUST GIVE EVIDENCE!

 

[BillJ]

Genocide is the argument that continues to confuse me.

Genocide - systematic killing of a racial or cultural group.

The Borg are an amalgam of various species they've assimilated over the years. And with a single hive mind I see little in the way of a good argument that they have a unique culture and that the universe would be losing something if they were eradicated.

The Borg at this point are nothing more than a wondering computer program executing a set on instructions given to it untold years. Picard should have pulled the plug.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

So, you assume I haven't read your thread...just because I didn't reply the way you wanted to?

First - commiting genocide against non-combatants (such as the founders or Hiroshima/Nagasaki) is ALWAYS wrong - immoral, useless, unnecessary.

Were the Founders non-combattants? They were the rulers of the Jem'Hadar--the head of the serpent. Testify, please:

If the enemy (his army which you haven't touched) is stronger than you, he'll make you pay dearly for your crime - in blood.

Not if he's dead.

If the enemy is far weaker than you - your genocide us completely gratuitous - you have many other optionns to deal with said enemy.

Good point--except none of us have discussed that.

Second - what about an enemy army?
If this enemy army attacks you with genocidal intentions (such as the borg or Alpha Quadrant jem'hadar) you have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary.

Again 1), the Founders ruled the Jem'Hadar, 2), they created the Jem'Hadar. If the Jem'Hadar were wiped out, and the Founders were still at war with the Allies, the Founders would have raised up another army--with the experience of the previous battles to guide them. Thus, the Allies would be back to square one.

Starfleet was far inferior to the borg - there was no other realistic option to subdue the collective. The paradox was the federation's - and BILLIONS other beings' - ticket out of the grave. It was the only option to stop the collective, a genocidal army that continuously killed. It should have been used.

And the Founders were continuously paranoid and hateful of "solid" powers. They only stopped because they wanted Odo to return even more--and he made them an offer they couldn't refuse. In short, the Allies got lucky.

Again, billions upon billions of lives were at stake in the Dominion war, too.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

So, you assume I haven't read your thread...just because I didn't reply the way you wanted to?

You prove you don't read the posts because you ask questions that I have already answered.
One recent example - in the DS9 thread, you didn't read the threads I mentioned and, 2 posts later, you were complaining I didn't provided them.

As for the Founder genocide - I already refuted your argument, Rush Limborg - multiple times. But you just kept repeating your tune, oblivious - you remind me of Anwar:

The founders had little involment in the administration of the Dominion/the leadership of Jem'hadar. The Vorta did thiese things most of the time.
Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Your post demonstrates you didn't bother to read most of my posts in the ~"Is genocide justified" thread.

So, you assume I haven't read your thread...just because I didn't reply the way you wanted to?

You prove you don't read the posts because you ask questions that I have already answered.
One recent example - in the DS9 thread, you didn't read the threads I mentioned and, 2 posts later, you were complaining I didn't provided them.

As for the Founder genocide - I already refuted your argument, Rush Limborg - multiple times. But you just kept repeating your tune, oblivious - you remind me of Anwar:

The founders had little involment in the administration of the Dominion/the leadership of Jem'hadar. The Vorta did thiese things most of the time.
Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah keep going on about how it is moral to kill what is basically a brainwashed army of slaves, but if you wipe out an enemy that is trying its damnest to kill you of it's own free will you're an amoral piece of garbage

 

[Rush Limborg]

Hold your breaths, folks--I AGREE with Hartzilla2007--his current point, at least.

To be perfectly frank, ProtoAvatar...you accuse me of repeating my questions--but I assure you, it is not because I did not read you answers. It is because you repeat your statements--albeit in embellished forms. I simply repeated it because you acted as if your statements explained themselves--which they did not.

Also, as "Starship Down" made perfectly clear--the Founders dying, in fact, result in the Jem'Hadar commiting suicide, for failing to save them. (I seem to recall you, or was it someone else, claiming that that was "just one incident"? Well...?)

Furthermore, you said the Vorta ran things most of the time. Recall that the F.C. took part in the formation of the alliance with the Breen--and that Weyoun constantly rebuked Damar with words along the lines of "You would disobey/question the Founder?"

Though Weyoun seemed to run things at first, the F.C. seemed to hold more authority as time went on.

Now...again, I do read your posts, all too well. You say:

Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

And yet you also say:

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

First you are incorrect--the Dominion could simply rebuild the Jem'Hadar cloning factories, as well as shipyards, etc.

Second--again, the situation is the same. Recall that in the finale, the Dominion fleet was going to be destroyed anyway. Thus, the only Jem'Hadar/Vorta threat, if your theory holds, would be from the Gamma Quadrant. So...what makes the two scenarios different?

Simple. The Founders--who had been, again, the designers of the Jem'Hadar and the enhanced Vorta--are wiped out in one scenario. In the other, they are not. Either way, the Domion is enraged, and out for revenge. However...in one scenario, the head of the serpent is cut off.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Rush Limborg
Yet again, you prove that responding to you is a waste of timme - the arguments you presented here were also refuted by me in that ~"genocide" thread:

Killing the founders will still let you with a large and angry Jem'hadar army in the Alpha Quadrant.
Managing to defeat the Alpha Quadrant Dominion will leave the main Dominion unable to strike for decades. This is NOT a perfect solution? Well, don't expect perfect solutions from genocide.

The Vorta/Jem'hadar killing themselves insted of taking revenge in an unending Jihad is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

Creating LARGE NUMBERS of Jem'hadar/building ships takes resources and time - they don't appear out of thin air.

Edit - about Hartzilla2007's argument:
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4046590&postcount=330

 

[Praxius]

I think Picard should have gone ahead with the plan to destroy the Collective.

It wasn't just the Federation at stake, but the entire galaxy. I think making Picard very ethical was interesting writing, but I think Picard's moral nature got in the way here.

Another thing is that the whole reasoning why it was a wrong idea came from Beverly, and I think her characterisation was often weak, since she always used to judge things from Earth/human morality. She could never be objective in her analyses of situations.

No different then Dr. Bashir and his morality in some episodes. The Starfleet docs are simply trained a different way.

Was Picard right or wrong in his decision?

I think when they weighed all the options, allowing an individual mind to link to the collective sounded like a more "Human" solution, rather then committing mass genocide.

Sure it was a survival of the fittest where it's kinda a "Kill or be killed/assimilation" situation..... and don't forget that Picard was gunning for wiping them all out until he actually stopped looking at them as mindless automatons and actually talked to one to see that indeed, a person does still exist deep down inside.... they're victims.... prisoners if you will.

In the end, it seemed as though there was just as much of a chance for individuality to break apart the collective and remove the borg threat, then this virus idea which wouldn't have given anyone a chance at survival and individuality and thus wipe out billions of lives.

Simpler? Perhaps

Easier? Perhaps

Would it have been right to commit genocide when alternative options were available?

If you were in the same position and had no knowledge of the out come where Lore would have taken over and almost created an even worse form of Borg.... it'd be difficult for any of us to come to the exact same conclusions.

In the end, I believe Picard made the right decision, though I could understand if the alternative was chosen.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Killing the founders will still let you with a large and angry Jem'hadar army in the Alpha Quadrant.

As I said...the Jem'Hadar forces were on the brink of defeat in the finale.

Managing to defeat the Alpha Quadrant Dominion will leave the main Dominion unable to strike for decades. This is NOT a perfect solution? Well, don't expect perfect solutions from genocide.

And yet it is the EXACT same scenario I propose--EXCEPT for the fact that there are no Founders after the "genocide".

The Vorta/Jem'hadar killing themselves insted of taking revenge in an unending Jihad is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

Then why didn't they take revenge on Sisko and the others when that Founder DID die?

Creating LARGE NUMBERS of Jem'hadar/building ships takes resources and time - they don't appear out of thin air.

And again, the scenario is the same--the Dominion forces would only come from the Gamma Quadrant.

Yet again, you prove that responding to you is a waste of timme - the arguments you presented here were also refuted by me in that ~"genocide" thread:

Eh, no. In fact, quite the opposite. But now, as then, we could type until our fingers fall off, debating which one isn't responding properly. Doing so comes across as rather childish...so I won't.

 

[Praxius]

Hold your breaths, folks--I AGREE with Hartzilla2007--his current point, at least.

To be perfectly frank, ProtoAvatar...you accuse me of repeating my questions--but I assure you, it is not because I did not read you answers. It is because you repeat your statements--albeit in embellished forms. I simply repeated it because you acted as if your statements explained themselves--which they did not.

Also, as "Starship Down" made perfectly clear--the Founders dying, in fact, result in the Jem'Hadar commiting suicide, for failing to save them. (I seem to recall you, or was it someone else, claiming that that was "just one incident"? Well...?)

Furthermore, you said the Vorta ran things most of the time. Recall that the F.C. took part in the formation of the alliance with the Breen--and that Weyoun constantly rebuked Damar with words along the lines of "You would disobey/question the Founder?"

Though Weyoun seemed to run things at first, the F.C. seemed to hold more authority as time went on.

Now...again, I do read your posts, all too well. You say:

Killing all the founders would only have made the Vorta/Jem'hadar, angrier, more determined. They would have never stopped coming for the Federation - NEVER. If it takes hundreds of years, they would still come.

And yet you also say:

As for defeating the Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadar expeditionary force - replenishing ships and jem'hadar takes time and resources - and it can only be done in the gamma quadrant. The founders could not have sent anything to the Federation for decades.
At least some positive result - unlike killing the founders.

First you are incorrect--the Dominion could simply rebuild the Jem'Hadar cloning factories, as well as shipyards, etc.

Second--again, the situation is the same. Recall that in the finale, the Dominion fleet was going to be destroyed anyway. Thus, the only Jem'Hadar/Vorta threat, if your theory holds, would be from the Gamma Quadrant. So...what makes the two scenarios different?

Simple. The Founders--who had been, again, the designers of the Jem'Hadar and the enhanced Vorta--are wiped out in one scenario. In the other, they are not. Either way, the Domion is enraged, and out for revenge. However...in one scenario, the head of the serpent is cut off.

For the record, the episode where they found the downed ship and the Jem killed themselves was "The Ship" - Season 5.... not "Starship Down" - Season 4.

The Vorta stayed alive and it was only the Jem'Hadar who were on the planet responsible for the rescue effort who killed themselves, because they were responsible for the Founder's safety..... note that the female Vorta transported back to the Jem'Hadar ship orbiting the planet after the conflict, which would mean someone had to still be alive on the ship to beam her back and to fly it.

In other episodes, it is noted that the Vorta are the ones who deal with the Cloning and White development, meanwhile it was the founders who made the Vorta smart in the first place..... so technically speaking, the Jem'Hadar and Vorta could have continued on if the Founders died..... but that's a "Could" meaning, I wouldn't be 100% sure on that.

 

[Anwar]

Everyone in the Federation, and likely the Alpha Quadrant.

How do you know? You have no proof.

They never launched a REAL invasion. They were never provoked into doing so.

No.

Why do you think the Borg wouldn't be antagonized? Where is your proof?

They never attacked the Federation.

Wouldn't blowing up one of their ships warrant at least two cubes if the Borg could be antagonized? What proof do you have?

They didn't send two Cubes to Earth immediately after BOBW when they lost one, nor did they send two Cubes to Earth when they attacked again in FC.

Yes.

What proof do you have that a planet of 100,000 people is more of a threat to the Borg than the Federation?

They launched a REAL invasion, compared to the one Cube attacks on the Feds. Proof in and of itself.

All she did was blow up one Unimatrix and kill some of them, not all of them. That virus wasn't supposed to do anything but kill the local area Borg.

What proof do you have of this?[/quote]

They never said that the Borg were all destroyed, just that one Unimatrix getting blown up.

You keep making these assertions without any facts to back them up.

Like you claim that Picard killed billions directly, when no one died at all?

Your position is getting shakier and shakier. How would a planet of 100,000 people be more of a threat than the Federation? If you want anyone to take you seriously, YOU MUST GIVE EVIDENCE!

The evidence was right there: They got attacked by multiple Cubes while the Feds only ever got one. That's proof in and of itself.