Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

[ProtoAvatar]

Hartzilla2007

The information paradox, the individuality sense and that biological virus from VOY are completely different weapons:

It's common sense that a biological virus won't spread beyond a ship;

Enterprise's crew predicted the borg security measures will most likely neutralise the individuality sense attack - which happened.
Considering the 'intimate' experiece both Picard and Data had with the hive mind - among other things - you can be sure that, by the time of 'I, Borg', Starfleet had a pretty good ideea about how the hive mind operates; an incomparably more accurate image than the superficial knowledge you have even NOW.

Everyone on the Enterprise was SURE the paradox program will manage to dismantle the hive mind, go around its security measures. Frankly, your opinion is worthless by comparison.
The paradox had a very good chace of objectively working.

And, indeed, Picard was CONVINCED the paradox will work when he made his choice. PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH AND ASSIMILATION BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS, the borg's future victims. All so that he can fanaticly claim he 'always' took the perfect 'white' choice. Monstruous.


PS: You're the one who claims to know 'everything' about the borg - far more than Data or Geordi - when, in truth, you only have a ridicuously shallow knowledge of their tech. Not me.

 

[Anwar]

And again, Picard was wrong. That the entire crew was so sure it would work was just made writing to force some moral view, when frankly it never made sense they'd be so sure of it anyways.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You are in very dangerous territory if one day you happened to find yourself contemplating genocide because you thought you had a good excuse for it. Inevitably something unplanned happens. A deadlier threat emerges, or everybody gets killed anyway but in different circumstances, or you become so corrupt that people try to kill you.

You don't seem to understand one thing, Mr Troi:

PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...

Picard either used the weapon against the borg, destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS.

And why did Picard did this?
He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himseld they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too.

....

I'm amazed, ProtoAvatar. I seem to recall your saying in a previous debate with yours truly--in no uncertain terms--that if a power, such as the UFP, were capable of commiting genocide and wiping out an entire enemy...that it would therefore also be capable of defeating said enemy without having to resort to genocide!

Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? Because, by this new argument, genocide against the Dominion is justified because it prevents genocide on the Dominion's part against billions upon billions of victims of said Dominion....

(In case everyone else is wondering...I'm referring to a previous debate in which we discussed the changeling virus.

And yes, I am aware that he and I also discussed the practicality of the virus--but at the moment, we are discussing genocide in general. Namely--can you justify genocide because it will probably--even decidedly--prevent the genocide of other races?

And...if we were discussing practicality--of course, the changeling-virus practicality is every bit as debatable as that of the Borg-virus--for the same reasons. Just saying.)

 

[ProtoAvatar]

....

I'm amazed, ProtoAvatar. I seem to recall your saying in a previous debate with yours truly--in no uncertain terms--that if a power, such as the UFP, were capable of commiting genocide and wiping out an entire enemy...that it would therefore also be capable of defeating said enemy without having to resort to genocide!

Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? Because, by this new argument, genocide against the Dominion is justified because it prevents genocide on the Dominion's part against billions upon billions of victims of said Dominion....

(In case everyone else is wondering...I'm referring to a previous debate in which we discussed the changeling virus.

And yes, I am aware that he and I also discussed the practicality of the virus--but at the moment, we are discussing genocide in general. Namely--can you justify genocide because it will probably--even decidedly--prevent the genocide of other races?

And...if we were discussing practicality--of course, the changeling-virus practicality is every bit as debatable as that of the Borg-virus--for the same reasons. Just saying.)

"Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? "

Hardly, Rush Limborg.

You see, the scenarists made the borg ridiculosly 'evil' - one mind, one unchanging will, no civilians whatsoever, continuous genocide, etc

The emergence of such an army is only tenable in fiction.
In real life, such a case NEVER occured and will never occur. Anyone who even comes close to something like that will self-destruct.

As for the Founders and the Dominion - they're not even close to this situation!
The Founders can be negociated with. Their death won't diminish the Dominion's fighting capacity. Etc, etc - you should know the rest.

Equating the Founders or any real world entity with the borg is a straw-man argument.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

No, Picard was not wrong. What he did was very much in keeping with everything we have come to know about Federation moral principles. The Federation follows an absolute code of morality that is black and white about what it sees as wrong and right. It would never sanction the murder of one innocent life to save even a hundred billion people. We may view his decision as silly from a practical point of view, but that is not how the Federation judges actions. It is Nechayev's comments that would be considered bizarre within the Federation.

 

[Tulin]

Yes. And Nechayev was correct. IMO, the blood of everyone killed by the Borg after that incident is (at least in part) on Picard's hands.

Agreed.


It's exactly the same as MooreRon did in BSG with Helo making THE EXACT SAME CHOICE not to destroy the cylons when he could have.

It's bad writing - you don't give your characters the power to do the ABSOLUTE BEST THING that will solve the entire galaxy's problem and then DON'T LET THEM DO IT.

In reality, Picard should have been ordered to do it ina hearbeat.

It's unrealistic and, again, very bad writing.

 

[Anwar]

Moore did it twice, first with Bashir curing Odo and again in NuBSG with Helo not killing the Cylons because he didn't want to kill his wife in the process.

Picard, like I said, pretty much SAVED the Feds from a REAL Borg Invasion by not using the (doomed to failure) virus.

 

[Kelthaz]

No, Picard was not wrong. What he did was very much in keeping with everything we have come to know about Federation moral principles. The Federation follows an absolute code of morality that is black and white about what it sees as wrong and right. It would never sanction the murder of one innocent life to save even a hundred billion people. We may view his decision as silly from a practical point of view, but that is not how the Federation judges actions. It is Nechayev's comments that would be considered bizarre within the Federation.

That's what Picard thinks the Federation is, but it's never been portrayed that way.

 

[Rojixus]

Picard, like I said, pretty much SAVED the Feds from a REAL Borg Invasion by not using the (doomed to failure) virus.

You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!

 

[greenguy]

You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!

Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.

 

[Rojixus]

You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!

Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.

Clearly you have not been on this thread long so I will ignore your suggestion. Secondly, this evidence does not help your friend's position at all. It doesn't matter if we are a credible threat to the Borg or not, if they want to send a fleet of cubes to end the Federation then they will do it, REGARDLESS IF WE ANTAGONIZE THEM OR NOT! Combine this with the fact that Picard and company was certain the virus would have worked and you have the only logical conclusion: PICARD SHOULD HAVE USED THE VIRUS! To not release the virus was moral cowardice on Picard's part. I suggest you read the entire thread before making any more rash judgments.

 

[BillJ]

Starfleet also seemed to think the virus would work based on Nechayev's orders from Descent I. They also didn't believe that it's failure would bring the Borg's wrath based on those same orders.

But I forgot that Picard can do no wrong...

 

[BillJ]

You don't know if the virus was doomed to failure or not. You also don't know if the Borg already considered the Federation a viable threat or not. As I have told you before Anwar, THE BORG WILL NOT SEND ANY MORE CUBES THAN THEY NEED TO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD HAVE SENT MORE THAN ONE CUBE IN STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT. Also, you keep repeating yourself, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MATTER, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW TO ADD, STAY SILENT!

Why are you yelling and being rude? At least be right if you are going to do this. Your argument is completely illogical and is refuted by later canon. It is not logical to say "The borg don't send more vessels than they need to or else they would have." Clearly, we the viewers do not have the extra information of knowing what exactly the Borg's motives are with the Federation at every single juncture, but I think it is safe to say that if they wanted to truly trash the Federation, they could have.

It is made clear on at least two separate occurrences that the Borg clearly DO send more vessels then necessary when they want to. This happened in Hope and Fear as well as Dark Frontier. In Hope and Fear, "hundreds of cubes" were sent to assimilate 1 planet. In Dark Frontier, at least 4 Borg vessels including a Cube were sent to attack a planet of just over 100,000 lifeforms. Imagine what they could and would send to the Federation. This is more recent canon in our timeline as well as the Star Trek timeline, so I suggest you read/watch up on Borg history before making dramatic and incorrect proclamations about the Borg and then telling people to shut up.

Clearly you have not been on this thread long so I will ignore your suggestion. Secondly, this evidence does not help your friend's position at all. It doesn't matter if we are a credible threat to the Borg or not, if they want to send a fleet of cubes to end the Federation then they will do it, REGARDLESS IF WE ANTAGONIZE THEM OR NOT! Combine this with the fact that Picard and company was certain the virus would have worked and you have the only logical conclusion: PICARD SHOULD HAVE USED THE VIRUS! To not release the virus was moral cowardice on Picard's part. I suggest you read the entire thread before making any more rash judgments.

"If you can't make the big decisions, Commander, I suggest you make room for someone who can. " - Lieutenant Commander Elizabeth Shelby

 

[The Borg Queen]

You know, this whole issue could have been avoided if Hugh took one look at the program and said something like: "This image is paradoxical and therefore irrelevant, the Borg will simply ignore it."

 

[brokenleg]

Would the program have really worked?

The Borg must know pi, and they most likely stopped calculating it at some point.

Right......
I have to agree with Jean Luc.. plus Hugo was like 12

 

[Commander Rabbit]

"The moral thing to do was not the *right* thing to do."

I disagree with that statement, on general principles.

So do I.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

"The moral thing to do was not the *right* thing to do."

I disagree with that statement, on general principles.

So do I.

So - what was the moral thing to do in "I, Borg" again?

Let uncounted BILLIONS die at the hands of the borg when you could stop this horror, all this just so that you can delude yourself that you made the "moral" choice?

Would the program have really worked?

The Borg must know pi, and they most likely stopped calculating it at some point.

Vanyel, an irrational number is NOT a paradox. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE.
You don't know much about this area of logic, do you?

 

[Anwar]

The moral thing? NOT to use a weapon that likely won't work, and in the process NOT provoke the Borg into a REAL invasion that will DEFINITELY kill billions.

 

[Rojixus]

The moral thing? NOT to use a weapon that likely won't work, and in the process NOT provoke the Borg into a REAL invasion that will DEFINITELY kill billions.

I swear Anwar, you are more repetitive than a broken record. You keep saying that BUT WHAT IS YOUR PROOF? Picard should have done the right thing and released that virus. He and his entire crew believed the virus would have worked, so IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE VIRUS WOULD HAVE REALLY WORKED OR NOT! Secondly, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU "ANTAGONIZE" THE BORG OR NOT, IF THEY WANT TO SEND A THOUSAND CUBES TO ASSIMILATE THE FEDERATION, THEY WILL DO IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO TO THEM! Picard did a foolish thing when he let Hugh go. Once again, Picard displayed total moral cowardice.

 

[Anwar]

I swear Anwar, you are more repetitive than a broken record. You keep saying that BUT WHAT IS YOUR PROOF?

The Borg are clearly far more advanced than the Federation, and have assimilated countless species at least as advanced as them over millenia. To think NONE of them thought of a viral attack is pure idiocy, and the fact the Borg still exist are proof such attacks don't work. Also we saw that when Hugh's own "infection" spread the Borg simply cut off that Cube.

Picard should have done the right thing and released that virus. He and his entire crew believed the virus would have worked, so IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE VIRUS WOULD HAVE REALLY WORKED OR NOT!

Sure it would, at that point the Borg weren't that interested in the Alpha Quadrant otherwise they'd have kept attacking with more than one Cube. That they didn't showed they had more pressing concerns elsewhere (or just didn't care). By launching their virus, all the Feds would do it provoke them into caring and launching a REAL attack to wipe out the Feds once and for all.

Secondly, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU "ANTAGONIZE" THE BORG OR NOT, IF THEY WANT TO SEND A THOUSAND CUBES TO ASSIMILATE THE FEDERATION, THEY WILL DO IT REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO TO THEM! Picard did a foolish thing when he let Hugh go. Once again, Picard displayed total moral cowardice.

They won't want to send a 1000 Cubes until the targets make themselves worth it, and this virus would have done that. At least if they hold off on attacking it gives the Feds more time to develop better weapons and ships to fight with. By NOT provoking them you're giving yourself more time to prepare for when they WILL.