And yet they didn't know about the Borg being able to cut off drones that have been infected with some type of virus like the poster above mentions.
Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?
- Thread starter indolover
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And yet they didn't know about the Borg being able to cut off drones that have been infected with some type of virus like the poster above mentions.
The mere fact that it is possible to 'recover' a Borg (i.e. remove it from the Collective and return it to being an individual, such as Seven of Nine) is all the proof I need: Genocide against the Borg is no different than genocide against any living race. If assimilation were absolutely irrecoverable, then there would be less of a problem with wiping out the Borg. But this is clearly not the case.
And even if the Borg don't respect the rules of war, that doesn't mean the Federation shouldn't.
And even if the Borg don't respect the rules of war, that doesn't mean the Federation shouldn't.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The borg were ALREADY in invasion mode against the Federation.
You see - one can't be sure that the klingons/romulans/dominion will start a war.
But one can be absolutely sure that, once the borg marked you for assimilation, they WILL come for you.
Why?
Because the borg hive mind doesn't have a true free will - it just obeys its impulses - that blind 'will to conquer', to assimilate - , which makes its actions largely predictable.
The borg coming for the Federation was as certain as the sun rising next morning. Anyone who thought otherwise were just deluding themselves - and showing poor medium/long-term thinking/planning skills.
Why didn't the borg already came in masse to assimilate the federation?
Because Starfleet stopped them in 'Best of both worlds'? RIDICULOUS! The borg have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of cubes (the number usen in 'Scorpion' is actually MILLIONS of cubes; I'm being conservative)! What happened in 'BOBW' barely qualifies as a skirmish for the borg.
Guinan, in 'Q, who', explained why the borg didn't already come - the collective doesn't do anything hurriedly; it always takes its time.
The cube in 'BOBW' and 'First contact' were on reconnaissance missions. By 'Dark frontier' the Queen was planning a somewhat larger attack - let's say, 1000 cubes (a smallish force by borg standards).
Tell me - what chance would Starfleet - and all the BILLIONS who live in the federation - have against 1000 cubes?
Who said the borg will be able to counter the logic paradox by separating infected drones?
Who said Picard&co didn't knew about this borg feature?
Perhaps Picard&co were so jaded when it came to the individuality program because they knew about this borg feature (or others along the same line), just as they knew it would be effective in stopping the individuality attack.
In any case, in their attitude one can clearly see that they think the individuality attack has very low chances of success (unlike the logic paradox). And they were right in this regard.
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Picard respected the rules of was?
Picard condemned UNCOUNTED BILLIONS to death and assimilation! This was not merely probable! This was a certainty!
You call that respecting the rules of war? Refusing to exterminate an enemy army (there are NO civilians among the borg, NO non-combatants) on a genocidal mission, condemning its victims (your natural allies) to death?
As for trying to save the drones - theoretically, that's possible. Practically, it's impossible.
The borg military tech and technology in general is vastly more advanced than the Federation's.
Trying to save the drones would be suicide - facing the borg is almost suicide even when you're not slowed down by such impossible tasks.
And another point - in 'I, Borg', Picard made the decision NOT to use the paradox because it would mean using Hugh and dismantling the borg hive mind (Hugh's "culture'). The episode was actually ambiguous about the drones being killed or merely made individuals when when the hive mind was shut down.
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The Borg weren't in invasion mode, if they were then they'd have sent a real Borg armada to Earth in BOBW and kept at it later. They were in "Send one Cube down to investigate these fringe dudes" mode, "Scout" mode.
That they NEVER came in force shows they never considered the Alpha Quadranters a real invasion-worthy part of the Galaxy.
Unleashing their doomed-from-inception viral program on the Borg would've just made the Borg LAUNCH a real invasion.
Picard condemned nobody, you're just too much of a warmonger to think otherwise. You don't provoke a vastly superior enemy to move against you, you leave them be and let them just pass by and ignore you like the fringer you are.
That they NEVER came in force shows they never considered the Alpha Quadranters a real invasion-worthy part of the Galaxy.
Unleashing their doomed-from-inception viral program on the Borg would've just made the Borg LAUNCH a real invasion.
Picard condemned nobody, you're just too much of a warmonger to think otherwise. You don't provoke a vastly superior enemy to move against you, you leave them be and let them just pass by and ignore you like the fringer you are.
I think we can safely assume at this point that the Borg can shut of ships with "diseases", or virus computer infections, etc. In this case, Picard's "genocidal" plan wouldn't have worked and may have actually "pissed off" the Borg...which would have made things WORSE. So taking into consideration that there was no guarantee the plan would work, Picard did the right thing. As we saw later this had other repercussions with Hugh and Lore on an isolated ship (further reinforcing the idea the Borg can shut off individual ships from the collective), but blame Picard for the continued existence of the threat? I don't think so.
RAMA
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Anwar:
You merely repeated yourself. I already answered in detail in my previous post. Read it.
torius22:
Your post is a VERY transparent straw-man argument.
RAMA:
About the borg being 'pissed off':
The borg had already targeted humanity for assimilation before 'I, Borg'.
This means that they would have come with certainty to assimilate the Federation with or without 'provocation'.
'Provocking' the borg, at most, would shorten the time after which they will come.
And what is the only reason for which Starfllet should avoid provocking the borg? In order to buy time.
For what? In order to make a weapon that is effective against the borg. Picard HAD this weapon - a weapon with better chances of success than anyone thought possible.
Not using this weapon is suicide - it equates to waiting until the borg come to assimilate everything because one doesn't want to 'provocke' them.
About the paradox vs the individuality attacks:
The paradox virus and the individuality attack are VERY different weapons.
Picard&crew were certain that the paradox attack will work (watch 'I, Borg' - the intent of the writers was to make the paradox attack working a certainty).
As fot the individuality sense, from the crew's reactions (instead of being extatic - 'Captain, you're a genius!' - they were jaded - 'Let's use it - we have nothing to lose') this attack had a very low chance of success.
The fact that the borg security measures were able to deal with the individuality attack says NOTHING about their performance against the paradox program.
Picard's decision in 'I, Borg' was immoral - he chose the 'greater evil', by far, he stained his hands red with the blood of BILLIONS, by allowing such an unimaginable horror of death and suffering to continnue, when he had a chance of stooping it - and strategically idiotic.
You merely repeated yourself. I already answered in detail in my previous post. Read it.
torius22:
Your post is a VERY transparent straw-man argument.
RAMA:
About the borg being 'pissed off':
The borg had already targeted humanity for assimilation before 'I, Borg'.
This means that they would have come with certainty to assimilate the Federation with or without 'provocation'.
'Provocking' the borg, at most, would shorten the time after which they will come.
And what is the only reason for which Starfllet should avoid provocking the borg? In order to buy time.
For what? In order to make a weapon that is effective against the borg. Picard HAD this weapon - a weapon with better chances of success than anyone thought possible.
Not using this weapon is suicide - it equates to waiting until the borg come to assimilate everything because one doesn't want to 'provocke' them.
About the paradox vs the individuality attacks:
The paradox virus and the individuality attack are VERY different weapons.
Picard&crew were certain that the paradox attack will work (watch 'I, Borg' - the intent of the writers was to make the paradox attack working a certainty).
As fot the individuality sense, from the crew's reactions (instead of being extatic - 'Captain, you're a genius!' - they were jaded - 'Let's use it - we have nothing to lose') this attack had a very low chance of success.
The fact that the borg security measures were able to deal with the individuality attack says NOTHING about their performance against the paradox program.
Picard's decision in 'I, Borg' was immoral - he chose the 'greater evil', by far, he stained his hands red with the blood of BILLIONS, by allowing such an unimaginable horror of death and suffering to continnue, when he had a chance of stooping it - and strategically idiotic.
First of all, the Borg cannot be pissed off. Second, if the Borg could have easily neutralized the virus, they would not have viewed the Federation as a credible threat. Therefore, they wouldn't have sent out an armada of cubes, at worst they would have sent one cube. The Borg don't want to expend any resources they don't have to, they only do what is sufficient, otherwise they would have sent an armada of cubes the first time. Picard was wrong not to release the virus. Even if it didn't work, it was still better than doing nothing, and if it did work, the Borg will no longer victimize the galaxy. And as always, THE LAWS OF WAR DO NOT APPLY TO THE BORG! IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO TAKE OUT THE GREATEST SCOURGE IN GALACTIC HISTORY, YOU HAD DAMN WELL BETTER TAKE IT! IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! IT IS IMPRACTICAL TO SAVE EVERY ASSIMILATED BEING! IT IS BETTER TO WIPE OUT THE BORG AND SAVE TRILLIONS OF LIVES IN BOTH THE PRESENT AND COUNTLESS NUMBERS IN THE FUTURE THAN TO RISK TRYING TO LIBERATE EVERY. INDIVIDUAL. DRONE. YOU ARE NAIVE AND FOOLISH TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE!
I don't know, the BORG QUEEN sure looked pissed to me in FC! I did put it in quotation marks however, so I meant whatever equivalent of "pissed" the Borg can muster..which would probably be not one or two ships, but a whole battle group that couldn't be defeated.
The Borg are hardly an elemental force, are you saying they can't change or evolve? There's even a recent episode of Dr Who where the Dr decides against killing a whole species because he knows they will eventually evolve into a peaceful race. Who are you to decide that they should all not exist, how is that moral? Sure the UFP was in conflict but there certainly still is LAW, and if you kill a whole species its immoral. Add to that there is proven fact that assimilated beings can be returned to normal then you make the genocide argument even more shaky. Picard HAD that proven fact in Hugh and he made the correct decision. This argument was only further buttressed by Voyager...who recovered many former Borg.
RAMA
I'm glad you can make so measured a choice. However the fact remains, there is no direct evidence the Borg would have been stopped in I, Borg, in fact there is evidence AGAINST this possibility, therefore there is no reason to place the resulting deaths on Picard.
What if Starfleet or the Alpha Quadrant finds a better way to combat the Borg on a more even keel? What if there is a war that kills millions on both sides, BUT the resulting peace allows both billions of former Borg drones AND Alpha Quad beings to live?
RAMA
I don't have to read it, because you're wrong. Bottom line, the viral program would never have worked, and simply doomed the Federation. Picard was in the right all along. I'm not going to say anything different, deal with it.
First of all, I am saying the Borg Collective as a whole cannot change and will never evolve. You can never change the basic fact that the Borg take people against their will and changes them into mindless drones. The Borg are a type of evil that must be destroyed. So long as one drone remains, it can begin the Collective anew. THE BORG WILL NEVER EVOLVE! Secondly, YOU CAN'T USE AN EXAMPLE FROM SOME OTHER SHOW TO PROVE YOUR POINT. IS IT IMMORAL TO KILL A VIRUS?
Also, you apparently did not read my entire post. I said it was practically impossible and not worth the risk to liberate every drone from the collective. It is time for you to realize the Borg are a despicable force of nature that must be destroyed to the last drone. Perhaps you would change your opinion if you were assimilated?
But as I said, they DO apply to the Federation. Just because one side might not obey those laws doesn't absolve the other side of its share of the responsibility.
No sir, YOU are wrong. Bottom line: the virus could have worked and might have saved the galaxy from Borg Tyranny. Picard was wrong and stupid not to do everything in his power to destroy the Borg. I'm not going to say anything different, DEAL WITH IT!
This is all supposition and not fact...the Borg changed and evolved in I, Borg...the Borg changed and evolved in STFC, the Borg literally evolved in Voyager "Drone"...http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Drone_%28episode%29. This isn't Star Wars...we dont have to see races as all "evil" or all "good".
How do you know that Starfleet won't invent something that can consistently shut of Borg subspace signals on a mass scale, then remove/kill nanoprobes? You are condeming an awful lot of species to death.
Also...http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Unimatrix_Zero??????
RAMA
What species am I condemning to death? The Borg? THE BORG ARE NOT A SPECIES!
You talk to me about supposition and you post this speculation? That is hypocritical.
If we were talking about the Klingons or the Cardassians, you would have a point. However, this is the Borg, they are all of one hivemind and that hivemind wants to assimilate the galaxy! That is evil in my book! Also, the Borg always had a queen so they did not evolve and it is apparent you didn't watch Drone at all, the Borg Collective as a whole did not evolve in that episode. THERE ARE NO GOOD BORG! DRONES SUCH AS HUGH AND ONE WERE SEPARATED FROM THE COLLECTIVE AND THEREFORE DO NOT COUNT. Your sympathy for the Borg is naive and childish. I don't think you know anything about the Borg. They are not a race, they are not a civilization, they are a plague to be annihilated. Would you honestly look someone who has lost a loved one to the Borg in the face and tell them the Borg have a right to exist and continue to assimilate innocent people?
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
RAMA
About the borg 'changing':
Picard's words said it best, in 'Scorpion' - "You should not expect reason or compassion from the borg. In its collective stare, it knows no reason, no remorse; only the will to conquer."
The borg is a special case - a sentient mind, without free will; the hive mind follows static, unchanging impuses/drives.
That's why the borg is situated the boundary between sentience and non-sentiece. And make no mistake, there is nothing unstable about its state, nothing amenable to change, to 'evolution' as you call it - its motivation didn't change since its appearance - 'the will to conquer'.
When dealing with the romulans, Dominion, etc, there is always the chance they will choose to have peace.
NOT so with the borg - peace is trully not in its nature, just as it isn't in the nature of a calculator to paint.
You praying for the borg to change is a waste of time - you might just as well pray for the souls of your ancestors to come back from the dead as you remember them and start talking about what's new.
About the Federation inventing some magic gizmo to turn the borg into angels:
Your argument has become that Picard was right not to use the paradox in 'I, Borg' because the Federation will invent a magic solution that can do whatever you want.
Your magic solution is RIDICULOUSLY IMPROBABLE, RAMA! The chances of it coming to pass are so low, I doubt one can calculate them, even mathematically
!
RAMA, the borg has assimilated THOUSANDS of starfaring species - at least. Don't you think that, if it was so easy to stop, it would have been stopped long ago?
The paradox virus from 'I, Borg', with its high chances of success against the borg (Picard&crew were certain it would work in 'I, Borg"), was better than anyone could realistically/reasonably hope for!
The Federation couldn't have found a better weapon no matter how long it would have searched. That paradox was a godsend! Thousands upon thousands of advanced, assimilated species stand testimony to that.
Waiting to find something bettrer is not only idiotic, but also suicidal (for your people) and criminal (for the BILLIONS Picard let die).
About the so-called Federation Borg war you mentioned:
RAMA, do you actually think that, if the borg would send - let's say 1000 cubes (by its standards, a small force) - the Federation could actually face it in war to a stalemate and then make peace
with it?
1000 cubes vs the Federation woldn't be a war - it would be a massacre! I doubt Starfleet would survive 2 weeks (and these only because the cubes need the time to reach starfllet's fleets).
1000 cubes vs the federation/the romulans/the klingons united will still be a massacre (but hey, now it will take take a whole month for the borg to wipe the alphans out
).
That's the disparity in power between the federation and the borg!
As for the borg making peace - well, good luck with those prayers of yours
.
About the borg 'changing':
Picard's words said it best, in 'Scorpion' - "You should not expect reason or compassion from the borg. In its collective stare, it knows no reason, no remorse; only the will to conquer."
The borg is a special case - a sentient mind, without free will; the hive mind follows static, unchanging impuses/drives.
That's why the borg is situated the boundary between sentience and non-sentiece. And make no mistake, there is nothing unstable about its state, nothing amenable to change, to 'evolution' as you call it - its motivation didn't change since its appearance - 'the will to conquer'.
When dealing with the romulans, Dominion, etc, there is always the chance they will choose to have peace.
NOT so with the borg - peace is trully not in its nature, just as it isn't in the nature of a calculator to paint.
You praying for the borg to change is a waste of time - you might just as well pray for the souls of your ancestors to come back from the dead as you remember them and start talking about what's new.
About the Federation inventing some magic gizmo to turn the borg into angels:
Your argument has become that Picard was right not to use the paradox in 'I, Borg' because the Federation will invent a magic solution that can do whatever you want.
Your magic solution is RIDICULOUSLY IMPROBABLE, RAMA! The chances of it coming to pass are so low, I doubt one can calculate them, even mathematically
!RAMA, the borg has assimilated THOUSANDS of starfaring species - at least. Don't you think that, if it was so easy to stop, it would have been stopped long ago?
The paradox virus from 'I, Borg', with its high chances of success against the borg (Picard&crew were certain it would work in 'I, Borg"), was better than anyone could realistically/reasonably hope for!
The Federation couldn't have found a better weapon no matter how long it would have searched. That paradox was a godsend! Thousands upon thousands of advanced, assimilated species stand testimony to that.
Waiting to find something bettrer is not only idiotic, but also suicidal (for your people) and criminal (for the BILLIONS Picard let die).
About the so-called Federation Borg war you mentioned:
RAMA, do you actually think that, if the borg would send - let's say 1000 cubes (by its standards, a small force) - the Federation could actually face it in war to a stalemate and then make peace
with it?1000 cubes vs the Federation woldn't be a war - it would be a massacre! I doubt Starfleet would survive 2 weeks (and these only because the cubes need the time to reach starfllet's fleets).
1000 cubes vs the federation/the romulans/the klingons united will still be a massacre (but hey, now it will take take a whole month for the borg to wipe the alphans out
).That's the disparity in power between the federation and the borg!
As for the borg making peace - well, good luck with those prayers of yours
.
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It has recently occurred to me that the Federation might have amended their version of the Geneva Conventions to exclude the Borg from any protections under the laws of war. For all we know, the Federation might not even have a Geneva Convention analogue.
Nope, it never would have worked. Not ever. Using it would've provoked the Borg into launching a REAL attack on the Federation and doomed them all. Damn warmongers never think things through.
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