Concerning the novel guidelines

[Rush Limborg]

It should probably be stressed that the "they'll ask you to write something else" business really only applies to the wacky business of tie-in writing. If you submitted an original novel to, say, Tor or Del Rey, they probably wouldn't say "We have enough cyberpunk novels, write an urban fantasy instead."

That's the sort of advice you expect to get from your agent instead.

As for the outline, it's a balancing act. You don't want to it to be too dry or mechanical, but you also don't want to bury the editor in details. I'll maybe throw in a line or two of dialogue, but save the rest for the longer version of the outline I'm saving on my computer, just in case I end up writing the book. When it comes to fleshing out any new characaters, though, that probably belongs in the sample chapters, not the outline. Usually, all you have a room for is a brief capsule description: "Dr. Edwards, an eccentric robot expert . . . ."

Hope this helps!

Sure does! Thanks a bunch!

If a story is turned down after you submit it, is that it for it, or can you try again after you've gotten other stuff published?

FWIW...Peter David, I recall, tried and failed over and over to get Pocket to accept his Q-meets-Lwaxana story concept (which, of course, became Q in Law). They only accepted it when he made an offer they couldn't refuse, concerning that Borg novel they wanted him to write (Vendetta): "OK, OK, I'll write the darn Borg book--IF you accept the Q/Lwaxana book, too!"

And of course, he got a good word from the late lamented Majel Barret Roddenberry--which was a plus, naturally.

(ADD/Asperger's moment: Irony of ironies: Vendetta actually got a disclamer stamped on it--something about there being no "former-female" Borg...?

Anyhow, the book they were begging him to write...ended up getting dissed by TPTB. *sigh*)

 

[xortex]

Guys, I got a couple of question. How long typically does each chapter have to be?
and can there not be any mention of time travel in the story even if it doesn't have any bearing on the story or the characters. I.e., if nothing takes place in another time and no main characters time travel.

 

[Greg Cox]

Guys, I got a couple of question. How long typically does each chapter have to be?
and can there not be any mention of time travel in the story even if it doesn't have any bearing on the story or the characters. I.e., if nothing takes place in another time and no main characters time travel.

I like to keep my chapters to around 10-15 pages, but that's just me. I'm not aware of any rules to that effect.

As for how much time travel is permissible, that's up to the editors at Pocket Books. I can't speak for them.

I doubt that the mere mention of time travel would get you rejected, though. That would be silly. It's not that the subject is taboo, just that somebody didn't want to encourage a flood of time travel stories from new writers. Maybe because they were getting too many of them.

Or so I assume.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, I seem to recall "no time travel" was one of the parameters that the producers of TNG, DS9, and VGR included in their pitch guidelines, because it's simply been done so often.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Guys, I got a couple of question. How long typically does each chapter have to be?
and can there not be any mention of time travel in the story even if it doesn't have any bearing on the story or the characters. I.e., if nothing takes place in another time and no main characters time travel.

I like to keep my chapters to around 10-15 pages, but that's just me. I'm not aware of any rules to that effect.

On that note...would I be allowed to have, in the pitch, a short, one-scene "prologue/preface" in addition to the first three chapters?

I dunno...I have an opening scene that somehow seems like it works best if it's separate from the other "opening events". Kinda like the "pre-credits" sequence of an episode, if you will....

 

[Greg Cox]

Not to pass the buck, but, honestly, at this point you're asking the wrong people. Neither Christopher or I have any authority to rule on the finer points of TREK outline submission.

My own advice, though, would not to get too hung up on the nuts-and-bolts. Again, I can't speak for the current administration at Pocket Books, but back when I reading the slush at Tor, I was more worried about the quality of the writing than whether the submission fit some abitrary parameters. As long as it wasn't written illegibly in crayon, and didn't read like it was written by a crazy person, I didn't care if the margins weren't precisely to spec.

It's not the SATS. You don't get scored on how closely you follow the rules. No editor in their right mind would reject a good, commercial manuscript just because there were three-point-five sample chapters instead of three. You just want to avoid doing anything that distracts from your writing--and gives the editor an easy excuse to reject it.

Hope that doesn't sound too snarky. I've just done way too many "how to get published" panels where the audience wanted to focus on everything except writing a good book. It's not about what pen name you use, or what computer program you use, or how many lines you can get on a page. You just want to write something that keeps the editor turning the pages . . . and that, in the case of tie-ins, fits with the program.

Or, to put it more succinctly: there's no secret formula. Just don't push your luck. If the guidelines say three chapters and no time-travel, don't turn in six chapters about Spock's adventures in the stone age.

You may get away with it, but probably not.

 

[RonG]

(ADD/Asperger's moment: Irony of ironies: Vendetta actually got a disclamer stamped on it--something about there being no "former-female" Borg...?

Anyhow, the book they were begging him to write...ended up getting dissed by TPTB. *sigh*)

I looked through my worn out copy of Vendetta, and found no disclaimer of any kind... was it something added in later printings? some vague part of the introduction I missed?

 

[Thrawn]

It's on the copyright page. It says "The plot and background details of Vendetta are solely the author's interpretation of the universe of STAR TREK and vary in some respects from the universe as created by Gene Roddenberry."

 

[RonG]

It's on the copyright page. It says "The plot and background details of Vendetta are solely the author's interpretation of the universe of STAR TREK and vary in some respects from the universe as created by Gene Roddenberry."

THERE it is never noticed that before... did it appear in other Trek novels of that time?

funny, Vendetta is dedicated to a "Richard", "the biggest windmill I (PAD) know". Was this a stab at Richard Arnold, for all the difficulties mentioned?

 

[Rush Limborg]

It's on the copyright page. It says "The plot and background details of Vendetta are solely the author's interpretation of the universe of STAR TREK and vary in some respects from the universe as created by Gene Roddenberry."

THERE it is never noticed that before... did it appear in other Trek novels of that time?

Well, Prime Directive has one. (Apparently, The Bird had the mindset of "Starfleet's portrayed too negatively. No matter how bad the incident was, Starfleet would never have treated Kirk and Co. like that", blah, blah, blah....)

And, I think I saw it in a few others--but their names escape me.

funny, Vendetta is dedicated to a "Richard", "the biggest windmill I (PAD) know". Was this a stab at Richard Arnold, for all the difficulties mentioned?

If "windmill" is a referrence to Don Quixote, I wouldn't be suprised....

Sometimes I wonder, though: was it really Richard who was so rigid to the extent of not allowing writers to use Sulu's first name (Home is the Hunter), or to show Kirk in conflict (A Flag Full of Stars), or to have Starfleet make a bad decision towards Kirk that they actually have to live with, etc.--or was he only a fall guy for The Bird Who Can Do No Wrong, who believed that Humans Have Learned To Move Beyond Conflict, and--?

(Ah, whatever. That's the past.)

 

[Rush Limborg]

Not to pass the buck, but, honestly, at this point you're asking the wrong people. Neither Christopher or I have any authority to rule on the finer points of TREK outline submission.

Well, y'know...I was just wondering if you'd have experience with that. But hey--back in the Marco era, he actually came here a few times, I recall....

My own advice, though, would not to get too hung up on the nuts-and-bolts. Again, I can't speak for the current administration at Pocket Books, but back when I reading the slush at Tor, I was more worried about the quality of the writing than whether the submission fit some abitrary parameters. As long as it wasn't written illegibly in crayon, and didn't read like it was written by a crazy person, I didn't care if the margins weren't precisely to spec.

It's not the SATS. You don't get scored on how closely you follow the rules. No editor in their right mind would reject a good, commercial manuscript just because there were three-point-five sample chapters instead of three. You just want to avoid doing anything that distracts from your writing--and gives the editor an easy excuse to reject it.

...It's not about what pen name you use, or what computer program you use, or how many lines you can get on a page. You just want to write something that keeps the editor turning the pages . . . and that, in the case of tie-ins, fits with the program.

Or, to put it more succinctly: there's no secret formula. Just don't push your luck. If the guidelines say three chapters and no time-travel, don't turn in six chapters about Spock's adventures in the stone age.

You may get away with it, but probably not.

Okay. Thanks for that!

Hope that doesn't sound too snarky. I've just done way too many "how to get published" panels where the audience wanted to focus on everything except writing a good book.

Oh, not to worry, sir...I think I've got a good story under my belt. I was just wondering how I could ensure that, for all my effort, it would not be thrown out because of one little thing!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Is it common for a tie- in idea to get past a editor and publisher, only to be turned down by the licensor?

Many of those are listed in Steve Roby's "Lost Novels" website:

http://www.well.com/~sjroby/lostbooks.html

 

[Therin of Andor]

THERE it is never noticed that before... did it appear in other Trek novels of that time?

Yep: "Prime Directive" and "Home is the Hunter". And The Worlds of the Federation.

funny, Vendetta is dedicated to a "Richard", "the biggest windmill I (PAD) know". Was this a stab at Richard Arnold, for all the difficulties mentioned?

Yep. More "Don Quixote" gags appeared in his "But I Digress..." columns in Comic Buyers' Guide". PAD also did some "Benedict Arnold" jokes (in the ST parody of "Dreadstar & Company" comics, IIRC) and had the illustrator put "ARNOLD" on a tombstone (was it in DC Annual #3?). Also had Seven of Nine make a negative comment about the early so-called Starfleet expert's predictions about no female Borg in "Before Dishonor".

was it really Richard who was so rigid to the extent of not allowing writers to use Sulu's first name (Home is the Hunter), or to show Kirk in conflict (A Flag Full of Stars), or to have Starfleet make a bad decision towards Kirk that they actually have to live with, etc.--or was he only a fall guy for The Bird Who Can Do No Wrong...?

Richard will tell you that he was always working under GR's directives. But others close to GR are likely to say that GR was way too busy with other things to be overly concerned about RA was doing on a daily basis, because he knew how steadfastly RA would defend GR's original list of points. Susan Sackett vetted the tie-in manuscripts through the Bantam years and early Pocket years, and RA took over when he was officially employed as ST Archivist when Paramount was bathing in the financial returns of ST IV. Before that, RA had been a volunteer tour guide at Paramount and a general dogsbody for SS and GR.

GR himself only put his stamp of approval on "Enterprise: The First Adventure" (see back cover), but that book caused Vonda McIntyre quite a bit of grief, IIRC - and the novelization of ST IV was her last straw.

I know, from RA himself, that the things that really got up GR's nose about the tie-ins included: Franz Joseph's dreadnought design; the fact that he and Paramount were contractually powerless to object to the war aspects of the game "Starfleet Battles"; a convention flier calling guest Diane Duane "the creator of the Rihannsu"; and his annoyance that FASA published their "Officer's Manual" without getting the final draft re-approved through the ST Office first. GR seemed less hands-on about individual novels and comics, and trusted RA's photographic memory and extensive trivia knowledge. It seems that the battles became very personal between RA and PAD, with PAD even testing some theories by submitting a proposal as the Hulk's alter-ego and getting it approved, when poor ol' Peter David had already had it turned down!

 

[RookieBatman]

I have a question for Christopher, as I'm currently reading Ex Machina. This seems like it fits within the guidelines Pocket gives for a novel proposal. Was Ex Machina based on your original "audition" proposal, or was that a different story?

 

[Christopher]

It seems that the battles became very personal between RA and PAD, with PAD even testing some theories by submitting a proposal as the Hulk's alter-ego and getting it approved, when poor ol' Peter David had already had it turned down!

You're almost right, but the way I remember PAD telling it, it wasn't the same proposal. Rather, Arnold had objected to the level of violence in one issue of PAD's Trek comic (not sure whether the issue was rejected or published in a rewritten form), so PAD wrote a new proposal under the "Robert Bruce Banner" byline that contained just as much violence as the previous one, if not more. And that one got approved without difficulty. So PAD decided that RA's problems were with him personally, so he resigned for the good of the Trek comic.

So I figure the story in question, the one submitted under the Banner byline, must've been "Once a Hero," his swan song on the Trek comic. But it didn't have that much violence, just three pages. But maybe that's the point -- that RA was objecting to rather minor things. Still, I guess one could say the violence is substantial in degree if not quantity, because there are people hitting each other over the head with pipes and bricks as well as shooting each other with phasers.

Anyway, Bob Greenberger's note in that issue's letter column said that "circumstances have dictated that Peter concentrate his energies elsewhere for the moment." A diplomatic way of putting it.

 

[Christopher]

I have a question for Christopher, as I'm currently reading Ex Machina. This seems like it fits within the guidelines Pocket gives for a novel proposal. Was Ex Machina based on your original "audition" proposal, or was that a different story?

Not everyone gets in the door by going through that submission process. It's just one of various possible routes. When I came to the attention of the Pocket editors (through my postings on this very BBS), I was already a semi-established author, with a couple of original fiction sales to my name. So I didn't need to send in a demo to prove I could write, and my postings here demonstrated my knowledge of and philosophy toward Star Trek. Eventually I was contacted privately, first by Marco, who wanted to read my published stories, then by KRAD, who invited me to pitch to SCE (as he did with a lot of other first-time Trek writers). I don't know whether Marco let Keith read my stories or what; only Keith could tell you why he decided to invite me in. But anyway, I pitched Aftermath and sold it, and then a while later Marco invited me to pitch DS9 stories for Prophecy and Change, and I sold "...Loved I Not Honor More."

So I was already a two-time Trek author when I pitched Ex Machina to Marco. I didn't have to go through the general submission process, so its guidelines weren't a consideration. ExM was just the post-TMP story I'd always wanted to tell. Although I did conceive of it during the days when Trek novels were subject to tight limits, so I approached it as a way to do some real character development within the limits of established continuity, by picking a point where the characters went through known changes and exploring their journey from the known starting point to the known endpoint. I suppose the limitations of the general submission guidelines are probably more or less the same as the limitations imposed on all Trek fiction during the Arnold era.

Still, in retrospect, I doubt ExM could've gotten approved in those days, since it was sort of an attempt to bend the rules without breaking them, and since it established a lot of new ideas about various Trek species and continuity elements.

 

[RookieBatman]

That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

It does bring to mind a further question, though. Does anyone know of someone who did get approved through that submission process? Or is it just a real needle-in-a-haystack?

 

[BrotherBenny]

And people are still waiting for an Ex Machina sequel...

Since Jaime is so nice as to let your DTI pitch through, have you tried an EM sequel pitch? Or will that have to wait until DTI is done?

 

[Lonemagpie]

Also had Seven of Nine make a negative comment about the early so-called Starfleet expert's predictions about no female Borg in "Before Dishonor".

Eh? There are female Borg in Q Who and BOBW...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Also had Seven of Nine make a negative comment about the early so-called Starfleet expert's predictions about no female Borg in "Before Dishonor".

Eh? There are female Borg in Q Who and BOBW...

That's expecting facts to matter to Richard Arnold.

Arnold decided that there were no such thing as female Borg while Peter David was writing Vendetta, which is why the book was one of several to carry the Roddenberry Disclaimer. (In other words, even though it looked like Star Trek, it really wasn't.)