Concerning the novel guidelines

[Greg Cox]

Another question for the pros; given the nature of the submission process, and the knowledge that your original submission probably wouldn't be used, did you ever try to come up with a storyline just for the purpose of the submission, maybe one you weren't too fond of, so you wouldn't get emotionally attached to it?

Good question, but no. I always hope to write any proposal I submit. I'm just realistic enough to know that there's never any guarantee that it will sell as written. And I'm flexible enough to switch gears if an editor says "Forget ENTERPRISE for the time being. I need a VOYAGER outline . . . ."

 

[RookieBatman]

I suppose that makes sense. And let me just say in a general sense how much I appreciate it that you writers take the time to answer questions like this.

 

[Christopher]

You shouldn't treat any idea as disposable, because that might lead you to put less care into it. It's just a fact of the profession that not everything you invest effort in creating will actually end up getting published; in fact, in the early stages of your career, it's a given that most of what you write won't get published. But it's still valuable for honing your craft, developing your own skills, gaining experience. So you need to put the same amount of care and commitment into it regardless. Besides, if it's an idea you really love and put your heart into, maybe it will sell after all. At the very least, you want to put your best effort forward for the editor, so it should be an idea you care about.

 

[DonIago]

Plus, the one time you submit an idea you -don't- care about assuming they won't choose to go forward with it, that'll be the one they love. Simple logic.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Plus, the one time you submit an idea you -don't- care about assuming they won't choose to go forward with it, that'll be the one they love. Simple logic.

Correct. I submitted three stories for SNW9. I was only going to submit two. The third story Rocket Man was written as a goof. Just a fun way for me to occupy an afternoon. It wasn't meant for publication and I thought it didn't stand a buttfuck's chance in Georgia of getting selected. Silly me.

 

[Thrawn]

"a buttfuck's chance in Georgia", eh? That's a new one for me,

 

[DonIago]

Change Georgia to Iowa and you have the groundwork for a homoerotic Kirk story.

...just sayin'....

 

[Greg Cox]

Plus, the one time you submit an idea you -don't- care about assuming they won't choose to go forward with it, that'll be the one they love. Simple logic.

Correct. I submitted three stories for SNW9. I was only going to submit two. The third story Rocket Man was written as a goof. Just a fun way for me to occupy an afternoon. It wasn't meant for publication and I thought it didn't stand a buttfuck's chance in Georgia of getting selected. Silly me.

That's how it it worked for me when I was just starting out. My "serious" sf stories drew rejection slips, but when I wrote something short and silly, I often ended up selling it to AMAZING STORIES or wherever . . . .

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Dean said pretty much the same thing to me. Freaks me out a little. I'm preparing to revise my first novel and I'm terrified that all the work I put into that thing is going to be for nothing because I worked so hard on it. I'm thinking I ought to write some piece of crap and watch it climb to number one on the New York Times Bestsellers List.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I suppose that makes sense. And let me just say in a general sense how much I appreciate it that you writers take the time to answer questions like this.

I just want to echo that.

People might remember I had an earlier thread concerning Trek submissions, and no matter how many times the same questions are asked....Christopher and Greg were always professional and clear in their responses.

 

[Greg Cox]

^Just part of the job. I learned this stuff from Norman Spinrad, Vonda McIntyre, etc.

And there are always new people who need to ask the same old questions.

Besides, I like talking about writing and the publishing biz.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^And wannabes like me love askin' about it.


Now...

Another question for the pros; given the nature of the submission process, and the knowledge that your original submission probably wouldn't be used, did you ever try to come up with a storyline just for the purpose of the submission, maybe one you weren't too fond of, so you wouldn't get emotionally attached to it?

Good question, but no. I always hope to write any proposal I submit. I'm just realistic enough to know that there's never any guarantee that it will sell as written. And I'm flexible enough to switch gears if an editor says "Forget ENTERPRISE for the time being. I need a VOYAGER outline . . . ."

Y'know...that's actually a subject that's been bothering me ever since I heard, "Your first proposal probably won't be the one they pick--they'll ask you to write something else", etc.

I will say that many a time, I'd thought I'd had a good storyline, and wrote up a synopsis--only to find that my creative energies on that tale were all used up, after that. Either that...or it ended up breaking one of the guidelines, in order to work. *sigh*

You shouldn't treat any idea as disposable, because that might lead you to put less care into it. It's just a fact of the profession that not everything you invest effort in creating will actually end up getting published; in fact, in the early stages of your career, it's a given that most of what you write won't get published. But it's still valuable for honing your craft, developing your own skills, gaining experience. So you need to put the same amount of care and commitment into it regardless. Besides, if it's an idea you really love and put your heart into, maybe it will sell after all. At the very least, you want to put your best effort forward for the editor, so it should be an idea you care about.

Point taken.

On that note--should you inject some "feeling" (character personality, humorous moments, drama, etc.) into the synopsis, to convice the editor that it's something you can run with, or is it better to simply give just-the-facts-ma'am, and save if for just the "first three chapters"?

Assuming, if course, you have the room for that "meat"....

 

[Greg Cox]

^And wannabes like me love askin' about it.


Now...

Another question for the pros; given the nature of the submission process, and the knowledge that your original submission probably wouldn't be used, did you ever try to come up with a storyline just for the purpose of the submission, maybe one you weren't too fond of, so you wouldn't get emotionally attached to it?

Good question, but no. I always hope to write any proposal I submit. I'm just realistic enough to know that there's never any guarantee that it will sell as written. And I'm flexible enough to switch gears if an editor says "Forget ENTERPRISE for the time being. I need a VOYAGER outline . . . ."

Y'know...that's actually a subject that's been bothering me ever since I heard, "Your first proposal probably won't be the one they pick--they'll ask you to write something else", etc.

"....

It should probably be stressed that the "they'll ask you to write something else" business really only applies to the wacky business of tie-in writing. If you submitted an original novel to, say, Tor or Del Rey, they probably wouldn't say "We have enough cyberpunk novels, write an urban fantasy instead."

That's the sort of advice you expect to get from your agent instead.

As for the outline, it's a balancing act. You don't want to it to be too dry or mechanical, but you also don't want to bury the editor in details. I'll maybe throw in a line or two of dialogue, but save the rest for the longer version of the outline I'm saving on my computer, just in case I end up writing the book. When it comes to fleshing out any new characaters, though, that probably belongs in the sample chapters, not the outline. Usually, all you have a room for is a brief capsule description: "Dr. Edwards, an eccentric robot expert . . . ."

Hope this helps!

 

[JD]

If a story is turned down after you submit it, is that it for it, or can you try again after you've gotten other stuff published?

 

[Thrawn]

Well, if nothing else, editors change; the forthcoming Star Trek: DTI by Christopher was submitted and denied under Marco Palmieri, and resubmitted to Jaime Costas who bought it.

 

[Christopher]

If a story is turned down after you submit it, is that it for it, or can you try again after you've gotten other stuff published?

You never know when you might find a new use for a failed story idea. It might end up being in a totally different universe. One or two authors have adapted failed ST script pitches into original stories, including David Gerrold and someone else -- Robert Silverberg? I forget. And some, including myself, have adapted non-Trek ideas into Trek fiction.

(Although you have to be careful when it comes to adapting a Trek idea to original fiction. It takes more than simply filing off the serial numbers. Sending an editor a recognizable Trek story with just the names changed is a good way to guarantee a quick rejection, because editors have to wade through too many of those as it is.)

But getting a second life for a failed Trek book proposal as a Trek book? As Thrawn said, that probably depends on a change in editors or circumstances. Or perhaps a change in your approach. Maybe if your editor rejected your initial take on an idea, he or she can be persuaded by a different take on it.

Well, if nothing else, editors change; the forthcoming Star Trek: DTI by Christopher was submitted and denied under Marco Palmieri, and resubmitted to Jaime Costas who bought it.

It's an overstatement to say I "submitted" it to Marco. Rather, I mentioned the idea to him as an idle thought at the New York Comic Con one year, and he didn't find it interesting. For that matter, I only included it among my pitches to Jaime as an afterthought, for the sake of completeness. I never actually expected them to go for it.

 

[Greg Cox]

Times change, and you never want to give up an idea.

True confession: my Pakled story in SEVEN DEADLY SINS is actually based on an old VOYAGER pitch that was rejected by the tv show years ago. It sat in my files for at least a decade until Margaret Clark asked for me for a Star Trek story about "Sloth." I reworked the idea to involve the Pakleds, replaced Voyager with the Enterprise, and submitted the revised outline for approval.

Of course, I didn't mention that the basic plot had been rejected by the tv people ages ago . . . .

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

You're a tougher guy that I am Greg. If I had been rejected by the writing staff of Voyager I would have hung myself. I mean it's Voyager!

 

[Christopher]

You're a tougher guy that I am Greg. If I had been rejected by the writing staff of Voyager I would have hung myself. I mean it's Voyager!

Everyone who's pitched to Voyager got rejected, even those who sold things to them. Rejection is part of the process. The way a pitch session works in TV is that you go in and toss a bunch of quick ideas at them, and most of those ideas will be rejected (the most common reason being that they're already doing something similar). But if you impress them enough, then you can schedule another pitch session later and throw more ideas at them, most or all of which will be rejected again. Typically, the Trek shows would buy maybe one pitch out of a hundred. (And at most one out of a thousand people who submitted spec scripts through their open submission process would even get invited to pitch.)

I pitched to DS9 once and VGR twice, and only on my third pitch session did one of my ideas impress the producer enough that he decided to bring it up to the rest of the staff. Just by getting that far, I beat odds of maybe 20,000 to 1. But it still got rejected. If I'd gone on, though, I might've eventually sold something. It's just a fact of the business that you have to go through a bunch of rejections in order to make some sales.


Greg's story reminded me that the plot of Orion's Hounds was originally a rejected Strange New Worlds story.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Hey I'm just kidding, Christopher.