So glad Rick Berman never listened to the "fans"...

[Roald]

Star Trek Voyager has got to be one of the most underrated television series of all time. It's perhaps most remarkable that its most vocal haters have been Star Trek fans... During 1995-2001, there was sooooooo much critisism and hatred towards the show, and I'm sure people like Berman, Braga or Taylor must have been aware of that. They must have heard it, but I'm just really glad they never listened to it.

For instance, one of the things these "fans" were crying for was MORE CONFLICT between Starfleet and Maquis crewmembers. Endless whining about how Voyager's crew so quickly became 'one happy family', etc., etc.... But after seeing BSG and some episodes of SG-U, I wonder: what does MORE CONFLICT really add to the enjoyment of a series..? Don't get me wrong, I think BSG is one of the very best series ever made, but I prefer to watch ST. Why? I guess it just comes down to a basic feeling: ST makes me feel good. I think it's exactly this 'one happy family' feeling that I like so much. And I think it sticks really close to what Gene was trying to make. This may sound a little silly, but I fantasize sometimes about being on the starship Voyager... Okay, this may suggest I'm some über-nerd, but it illustrates something: I would NEVER EVER fantasize being on Galactica or Destiny.... I think ST generated a very unique, positive feeling, that no other series can accomplish. Where legions of "fans" opted for a dark approach (perhaps because B5 was running at about the same time), I think it was very wise of Berman to not give in to these kind of 'demands'. 'Cause it would just have tainted that unique feeling I was describing.

I think Star Trek Voyager achieves something on a very special level. Perhaps it lacks the hard hitting character drama seen on BSG... Perhaps it lacks the structure of a cool epic story like B5.... But in the end, it's what I love to watch most. And I think that outweighs any critisism I've ever heard....

So thanks to Rick Berman for producing a great series. I'm not afraid to say it, even though this will all undoubtly be bashed by the "real fans"...............

 

[Akiraprise]

I always thought there should have been a little more conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet crews. But after watching SGU lately I'm glad there wasn't. It's more annoying than exciting. Both shows have one ship tossed far from home with two sets of crews on each ship. On VOY they got along and dealt with their obstacles together. On SGU they fight amongst each other. It's kind of dumb. Give me happy go lucky Voyager I guess.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I always thought there should have been a little more conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet crews. But after watching SGU lately I'm glad there wasn't. It's more annoying than exciting. Both shows have one ship tossed far from home with two sets of crews on each ship. On VOY they got along and dealt with their obstacles together. On SGU they fight amongst each other. It's kind of dumb. Give me happy go lucky Voyager I guess.

The difference between Voyager and SGU is that the Voyager crew could have afforded a mutiny though. I mean the crew of the Destiny has to fight for survival every day, so a mutiny doesn't make that much sense there. Voyager on the other hand was a pretty comfy place. In a situation where you have seemingly unlimited food and medical supply you have time to think: "Do I really like my leaders and if not, what can I do to change that?"

 

[Broccoli]

I don't think it is that people wanted more conflict for the sake of conflict. Rather that, at the beginning, there would logically be some conflict as the two crews with radically different political views (for lack of a better term) learned to work with one another. Instead, by the third episode, it seemed that most people were all chummy and no issues ever arose between the two groups (outside of a random episode that had the crews acting differently from an outside source).

And you can't really blame Berman and the writing team for that as it was an edict from UPN to have the crews be happy together in order to have a TNG-like show.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

 

[Roald]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

 

[JohnChod]

I guess I would ask, why bother creating the premise of two diametrically opposed crews forced to live on the same ship and then abandon the creative potential that situation entails? Of course, I have the same question as to why they did not utilize the "one ship all alone" premise either. Rather than having difficulty finding supplies or keeping the ship in top shape, everything was peachy-keen all the time.

But worse than that were bland, non-evolving characters, or characters who kept learning the same lessons time after time (EMH, Seven), un-even characterizations (leading to the comments regarding Janeway as schizophrenic or insane), recycled and boring plots, etc. And, don't even get me started on Enterprise.

I understand that Trek made you feel good and you felt that this was closer to what GR would have wanted, but you can't continue to basically re-make the same series without it growing stale and losing fans along the way.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I enjoyed VOY for what it was, and I still enjoy it. It was never intended to be a character driven drama like BSG or DS9. The studio, and Berman/Braga, wanted a TNG-style series.

However, that doesn't mean I don't think it would have been better if it was a character driven drama.

They set up a show where two groups of people who held radically different points of views had to find a way to work together. That's a situation that literally screams for, at least, some kind of tenison between the groups. However, almost by the end of the pilot episode, most of that tension was eliminated (seriously, when I saw Chakotay in a Starfleet uniform at the end of Caretaker, all I could think was ).

Look what they did on DS9. They were different people, all with different viewpoints and agendas, who weren't too happy to be working together. However, by the end, they all managed to find a way to work together peacefully, and even be friends, while still maintaining their opposing viewpoints. Kira, unlike Chakotay, never said, "Well Sisko is the captain, so I'll just go along with almost anything he says, regardless of what I think."

Adding conflict doesn't mean having the crew mutiny against Janeway each and every week. It means showing that not all the crew, especially the Maquis crew, agree with Janeway's actions at the time. It means having more scenes like in Act One of Alliances - where members of the Maquis openly express discomfort with Janeway's actions to her face and Janeway responding to Chakotay that she can't agree to their recommendations. If there had been more scenes like that, I think VOY would have much better.

 

[Danny99]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

I would dare to say you came in here to pick a fight. Calling out people with things like "real fans" sarcastically is not the best way to start a productive discussion.

 

[RandyS]

It's funny you say you never fantasize about being on the Galactica. I do alot. I'd love to be the guy who shoots every last one of those worthless people.

That said, I agree with you.

 

[Roald]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

I would dare to say you came in here to pick a fight. Calling out people with things like "real fans" sarcastically is not the best way to start a productive discussion.

No, I certainly did not come in here to pick a fight..!

But why do I have to put up with people constantly suggesting I'm this brainless rodent for liking shows like VOY or ENT..? Aren't THOSE people really trying to pick a fight..?!

 

[T'Girl]

It's perhaps most remarkable that its most vocal haters have been Star Trek fans...

I believe the technical term you're desperately searching for is called "Feed back."

Who else are you going to get to give you commentary on your product if not the consumers of that product? And it not exactly like Voyager is being singled out, EVERY one of the series's has it own share of problems, Voyager simply has problems that are unique to it particular format.

I guess I would ask, why bother creating the premise of two diametrically opposed crews forced to live on the same ship and then abandon the creative potential that situation entails?

This.

At least have Janeway and Chakotay retire to the ready room and discuss/yell about a command or philosophical difference, then walk out on to the bridge and show a united front for the crew. Kirk heard it from Spock and McCoy, Picard openly embraced his officers opinions. Janeway should have just made Tuvok her first officer, because when it came to seeking advice he was the first officer. Chakotay was made first officer purely for internal political reasons, maybe also so Janeway could keep a closer eye on him too, and boy did it show. The Producer could have easily played on this, no not mutany, the few time we saw tension between Chakotay and Tuvok always rang so true.

un-even characterizations (leading to the comments regarding Janeway as schizophrenic or insane).

Actual viewing Janeway as becoming increasingly mentally unbalanced (especial after season two) renders the character more believable, not less.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm sure you enjoy interesting stories, and I'm sure Rick Berman enjoys them too. There's no need to be condescending.

 

[Roald]

There was an opportunity to tell fresh, interesting stories and that opportunity was squandered. It's simple.

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm sure you enjoy interesting stories, and I'm sure Rick Berman enjoys them too. There's no need to be condescending.

By stating "it's simple", I wonder if you're not the one who's being condescending....... 'Cause you insinuate that I don't have the intellect to realise 'VOY really is a very bad series'.....

But to everyone: I don't want to create bad blood or anything...! Let's just all be friends, okay?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

By stating "it's simple", I wonder if you're not the one who's being condescending... 'Cause you insinuate that I don't have the intellect to realise 'VOY really is a very bad series'...

How about just getting offended by what I say, instead of what you think I mean?

By stating "it's simple", what I meant was that there was no big conspiracy at play and no dark intent, people didn't really clamor for a BSG approach in Voyager, they weren't trying to ruin Voyager's "unique feeling" by demanding more and more darkness and angst, they were just thinking that opportunities to tell interesting stories were being squandered. I said "it's simple" because I thought you were burying that rather straightforward point under piles of resentment.

 

[Roald]

By stating "it's simple", I wonder if you're not the one who's being condescending... 'Cause you insinuate that I don't have the intellect to realise 'VOY really is a very bad series'...

How about just getting offended by what I say, instead of what you think I mean?

By stating "it's simple", what I meant was that there was no big conspiracy at play and no dark intent, people didn't really clamor for a BSG approach in Voyager, they weren't trying to ruin Voyager's "unique feeling" by demanding more and more darkness and angst, they were just thinking that opportunities to tell interesting stories were being squandered. I said "it's simple" because I thought you were burying that rather straightforward point under piles of resentment.

Okay, good statement.

But in the end, 'interesting' by itself is very subjective. I for one think Voyager had plenty of interesting storytelling, and the harmonious tone of the series is one of the most interesting and compelling aspects for me. I think the whole Starfleet vs. Maquis theme was addressed in several first season episodes, and I'm glad it didn't become an issue for later seasons.

Perhaps that's just what my post is all about. People were demanding for more Maquis conflict, and it became like this universal agreement that VOY was a bad series because it lacked that. I want to make a statement that you can be a tue fan of ST and still like VOY a lot..!

 

[Brit]

. However, almost by the end of the pilot episode, most of that tension was eliminated (seriously, when I saw Chakotay in a Starfleet uniform at the end of Caretaker, all I could think was ).

I can and have made the case that wearing the uniform was Chakotay's idea not Kathryn's. There is a lot of assumptions made around that final scene, and all we know is that the Captain's log states that Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay agreed.

Brit

 

[Lynx]

Star Trek Voyager has got to be one of the most underrated television series of all time. It's perhaps most remarkable that its most vocal haters have been Star Trek fans... During 1995-2001, there was sooooooo much critisism and hatred towards the show, and I'm sure people like Berman, Braga or Taylor must have been aware of that. They must have heard it, but I'm just really glad they never listened to it.

For instance, one of the things these "fans" were crying for was MORE CONFLICT between Starfleet and Maquis crewmembers. Endless whining about how Voyager's crew so quickly became 'one happy family', etc., etc.... But after seeing BSG and some episodes of SG-U, I wonder: what does MORE CONFLICT really add to the enjoyment of a series..? Don't get me wrong, I think BSG is one of the very best series ever made, but I prefer to watch ST. Why? I guess it just comes down to a basic feeling: ST makes me feel good. I think it's exactly this 'one happy family' feeling that I like so much. And I think it sticks really close to what Gene was trying to make. This may sound a little silly, but I fantasize sometimes about being on the starship Voyager... Okay, this may suggest I'm some über-nerd, but it illustrates something: I would NEVER EVER fantasize being on Galactica or Destiny.... I think ST generated a very unique, positive feeling, that no other series can accomplish. Where legions of "fans" opted for a dark approach (perhaps because B5 was running at about the same time), I think it was very wise of Berman to not give in to these kind of 'demands'. 'Cause it would just have tainted that unique feeling I was describing.

I think Star Trek Voyager achieves something on a very special level. Perhaps it lacks the hard hitting character drama seen on BSG... Perhaps it lacks the structure of a cool epic story like B5.... But in the end, it's what I love to watch most. And I think that outweighs any critisism I've ever heard....

So thanks to Rick Berman for producing a great series. I'm not afraid to say it, even though this will all undoubtly be bashed by the "real fans"...............

Some really good points here. Although I've been tough in my criticizm against Berman and his people for the treatment of the character Kes and for some obvious stupid things in the show, I've got to give him and his people credit for the good things they did too. First of all, giving us those amazing characters and some great episodes as well.

When it comes to a possible conflict between Starfleet and Maquis fans, I have to agree. OK, I thought that Torres became "tame" a little too quick considering her attitude in "Caretaker" (her adaption could have been just a little bit slower) and I would have liked to see more of the development of characters like Dalby, Gerron, Henley and Chell. But as I see it, the Maquis who joined the crew had no reasons to start a conflict.

First, most of them respected Chakotay and followed his example. Second, they were smart enough to realize that Voyager was their only ticket home and that they had to adjust to the situation. Third, they were to few to try to take over the ship and fourth, most of them didn't have any conflicty with Starfleet. It was the Cardassians who were their enemy, not the Federation.

This actually struck me last Friday when I decided to give up Stargate Universe after a few episodes. I just switched off in the middle of an episode and started to watch "Twisted" instead. After seeing those dull and boring characters constant bickering for yet another episode, it was a total relevation to watch a Voyager episode instead. SGU lacks everything that Voyager had. Note that I'm not a Stargate basher, I actually liked Stargate SG1 (good characters) and had some affection for Atlantis too even if none of those shows can be compared with the excellent entertainment which Star Trek stands for. But SGU is a huge dissapointment. The only character who has some substance is Rush and I think it's due to Robert Carlyle's excellent acting.

As a matter of fact, I wrote on another forum that "compared to SGU, some of the worst Voyager episodes are actually acceptable".

And no, I never liked BSG either for almost the same reasons. Uninteresting characters and the "doom and gloom" scenario.

So even if I'm dissapointed with some things in Voyager, it remains a favorite and compared to some similar shows it was a masterpiece with great and likeable characters. And yes, I have to give those in charge credit for what was good with Voyager.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I question the idea that the Starfleet and Maquis crewmembers were diametrically opposed. That's a term we used to describe the moral alignments of characters in D&D. If Starfleet mostly represents Lawful Good, and sometimes Neutral Good, the Maquis represent Neutral Good and sometimes Chaotic Good (and I'm not sure they even drift into CG)
I'm not sure if ST has ever depicted a Chaotic Evil, which is what diametrically opposed would be. Maybe that strange monster on the hell planet that killed Tasha.
A lot of the Maquis and Starfleet crewmembers would actually have the same moral alignment. The only thing that made one Starfleet and another Maquis was personal experiences.

 

[Agenda]

Star Trek Voyager has got to be one of the most underrated television series of all time. It's perhaps most remarkable that its most vocal haters have been Star Trek fans... During 1995-2001, there was sooooooo much critisism and hatred towards the show, and I'm sure people like Berman, Braga or Taylor must have been aware of that. They must have heard it, but I'm just really glad they never listened to it.

For instance, one of the things these "fans" were crying for was MORE CONFLICT between Starfleet and Maquis crewmembers. Endless whining about how Voyager's crew so quickly became 'one happy family', etc., etc.... But after seeing BSG and some episodes of SG-U, I wonder: what does MORE CONFLICT really add to the enjoyment of a series..? Don't get me wrong, I think BSG is one of the very best series ever made, but I prefer to watch ST. Why? I guess it just comes down to a basic feeling: ST makes me feel good. I think it's exactly this 'one happy family' feeling that I like so much. And I think it sticks really close to what Gene was trying to make. This may sound a little silly, but I fantasize sometimes about being on the starship Voyager... Okay, this may suggest I'm some über-nerd, but it illustrates something: I would NEVER EVER fantasize being on Galactica or Destiny.... I think ST generated a very unique, positive feeling, that no other series can accomplish. Where legions of "fans" opted for a dark approach (perhaps because B5 was running at about the same time), I think it was very wise of Berman to not give in to these kind of 'demands'. 'Cause it would just have tainted that unique feeling I was describing.

I think Star Trek Voyager achieves something on a very special level. Perhaps it lacks the hard hitting character drama seen on BSG... Perhaps it lacks the structure of a cool epic story like B5.... But in the end, it's what I love to watch most. And I think that outweighs any critisism I've ever heard....

So thanks to Rick Berman for producing a great series. I'm not afraid to say it, even though this will all undoubtly be bashed by the "real fans"...............

Are you Rick Berman's official apologist or something? I'm only asking because you were also the originator of this thread as well.