Tuvix

[F. King Daniel]

I really liked this episode. I'm not sure why several seem to dislike it so.

Janeway killed one man to save two. I can see why she did it, but I couldn't have done it in her place.

Tuvix was an interesting character. He wasn't portrayed as perfect (by which I mean he wasn't the "Star Trek Fequently Moronic 'Better' Human Who Never Conflicts With Co-Workers"), or entirely stable toward the end. He freaked out, but who can blame him? He was nasty to Kes, but can you think of a better reason to be? If I was going to be marched to my death I would try anything I could to stay alive.

Imagine if he transferred his Katra to, say, Kes before he was killed! That would have been brilliant.

And I loved how Tuvok's unifom merged with Neelix's outfit too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Even without stealing Borg technology, the Federation has had the technology to synthesize and digitally store conciousness since TNG's The Schizoid Man... How ever since they should have figured it out after TOS Return to Tomorrow begs the question as to if these people are complete dummies.

This is Kobayashi Maru.

Cheating takes the guts out of the problem.

We always talk about Tuvoks importance as a tactical officer, but really, Tuvix was as equally competent, however, as a cook... Tuvix was vastly superior to Neelix, which makes Tuvix better than the other two by a nose.

Tuvix had thirty days to knock someone up.

That would have changed everything.

Imagine if he had seduced Janeway?

Now that would have been a pickle.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Murdering a murderer is still murder.

DonIago:

See, that's just the thing. War or defending yourself is a part of life. If we didn't stop the Nazi's then we would be under a really warped society right about now. Not that I am the type of person who thinks war is always the solution mind you. But certain wars or someone defending their family against a homicidal killer is actually not a bad thing.

I mean, yes. It is nobler to turn the other cheek. But even God Himself used His people to war against his enemies.

In nature, many animals protect their young from outside intruders. It is a natural order of things.

Now, I am not telling you to turn into the Punisher or anything so you can make your neighborhood safer for your family. I am saying that under certain rare circumstances the act of defending yourself is not the same as just wanting to go out and create your own sense of extreme justice or killing for a thrill (ie. murder).

I mean, pretty much every other Star Trek episode puts the crew into a position where they have to defend themselves. And many times destroying the enemy that threatens their lives is the only option.

I mean, seriously. Do you sit thru the Wrath of Khan and say to yourself.. "Ah Hell no!" "Kirk, don't do it." "Khan is a living breathing person who is worthy of life." "Don't kil-" "Ah Dang it!" "You killed him!" "WHY?"

No. You want Kirk obliterate Khan out of the stars...
Because Kirk is protecting his crew from a homicidal killer.

 

[Red Ranger]

The ep does make you think. For me, I'm fascinated by more pedestrian concerns. What if the process didn't work, and you wound up with two merged beings? Tuvix and Neevok. (The fan boy in me wonders what a Vulcan would look like with a Talaxian's coloring and spots, the opposite of what Tuvix looked like.) To do no harm indeed. Then you'd have two mixed up beings and Neelix and Tuvok would still be "dead."

 

[Saquist]

Not saying it is right, but most folks would make their choice based on the evidence at hand and not what is to be or could happen.

I consider that unfortunate.
Wouldn't you.

I can understand that. I would try to find a peaceful solution or knock out my attacker first of course if given the opportunity, myself. I'm just saying that if you had a daughter and the only way you could save her life from a mad killer was to take the mad killers life. You are simply protecting your family.

I understand.

What makes it wrong for Tuvix to self defend himself is that he is essentially letting two other men stay murdered or dead at his expense or existence. He basically forfeits his right to be a descent humanoid being if he lets that happen.

America ruled in a court proceeding 15 years ago that taking life to save your own as in the case of an example of a man taking the life jacket of another to say his own life is not an act of murder but an act of survival.

How much more so if you believe that right than a man's who's actions did not cause a death?

 

[Luther Sloan]

How much more so if you believe that right than a man's who's actions did not cause a death?

Saquist:

Well, again: Tuvix was letting two crew members stay dead at his continued existence. Essentially he was killing or attacking Janeway's family. So she simply was protecting that family in self defense.

So I still don't see the problem with this. Sure, it may not be your text book example of a self defense situation. Then again this isn't a normal case either. We are talking about a hypothetical scenario or something that will more than likely never happen.

But if it did. That person (The Captain) would be within their right to restore their loved ones or friends as nature intended it to be.

I mean, can you honestly say you wouldn't make the same decision that Janeway made if the person you loved the most and a cold hard killer merged together just like Tuvix?

How do I know that these two life forms are going to stay merged together and live okay in the long haul?

Maybe the doctor didn't account for unseen problems down the road.

How is that fair to the person I love to live out an existence with the partial mind of a killer?

 

[DonIago]

So, by your reasoning, if my birth somehow caused my parents to die, and I discovered at some point that I could restore them to life if I killed myself, I am morally obligated to do so, and essentially a murderer if I fail to do so?

If old Jake Sisko hadn't killed himself in "The Visitor", would he be Ben Sisko's murderer? He knows he can bring his dad back but is refusing to do so, after all.

 

[Luther Sloan]

So, by your reasoning, if my birth somehow caused my parents to die, and I discovered at some point that I could restore them to life if I killed myself, I am morally obligated to do so, and essentially a murderer if I fail to do so?

DonIago:

But see, that's different. You are not a transporter accident living at the expense of two other lives that just happened. It wasn't like Tuvix lived a full life, proved himself, and contributed to society and then found out that he could bring Tuvok and Neelix back. By then Janeway wouldn't care and Tuvok and Neelix would have been gone for so long, that they might as well been dead.

Time does change the nature of things.
Just like time changes people and objects.

Plus, your parents or loved ones would want you to live on.
Neelix and Tuvok didn't want to become a mutant freak of nature.

There is a difference.

If old Jake Sisko hadn't killed himself in "The Visitor", would he be Ben Sisko's murderer? He knows he can bring his dad back but is refusing to do so, after all.

Again, clearly a different set of circumstances. Jake is Sisko's son. Sisko wants him to live on and grow up to be a man. He had a whole life ahead of him. Jake is the extension of Sisko.

Tuvix is not the extension or child of Tuvok or Neelix. He was a mutant hybrid freak of nature that wasn't supposed to happen that took away the individual voices and rights of Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[DonIago]

Then I ask, again...how long does Tuvix have to exist before he has the -right- to exist? 9 months? 1 year? 5 years? 20 years? Where's the turning point?

How does it matter that Tuvix was an accident? If anything, that proves the point that he's not a murderer because he didn't intend to be created. In both cases, someone is living -knowing- that their existence means that other people do not exist.

It sounds like you're saying that someone's right to exist should be defined by whether they've "proven" they deserve to. Not a criteria that I would -ever- exercise myself.

You say that Jake has the right to exist because Ben would want him to. Prove to me that Tuvok and Neelix would -not- want Tuvix to exist.

 

[Saquist]

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

 

[Guy Gardener]

And in international waters?

Or uncivilized countries?

King and Country loves the killings, God and the Church too.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Prove to me that Tuvok and Neelix would -not- want Tuvix to exist.

DonIago:

Uhhh... the fact that they didn't want to go back into the transporter and become a mutant hybrid freak of nature again is reason enough.

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

Saquist:

Janeway was the law. She was her own country in the Delta Quadrant. And Starfleet obviously must have supported her decision because they made her an admiral. Plus, that other line says malice. There is no malice in Janeway's intent. She is simply protecting her family.

Plus, just because it is the written law of the land doesn't always mean they are right either. I mean, our courts systems are seriously flawed, man. If you have enough money you can get away with just about any crime these days. If your poor... Your screwed.

 

[DonIago]

"If your poor... Your screwed."

Nice job of summing up Tuvix's plight, there.

 

[Luther Sloan]

"If your poor... Your screwed."
Nice job of summing up Tuvix's plight, there.

DonIago:

I was using that reference within the context of describing the law in our country. Not the moral law of what we know to be true and right deep down in our hearts.

And again... if you believe Janeway was wrong in standing up or defending the lives of Tuvok or Neelix. Then, every time you see Kirk, Picard, and Sisko defend his crew in battle... you have to essentially make them out to be murderers, too.

In other words, you can't have it both ways.


Side Note:

As for the time issue:
Gary 7 addresses that point a bit here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2834305&postcount=236

 

[Luther Sloan]

Also, folks: the transporter doesn't create new and unique life or a new soul, but simply is given the information it is sent to it. It might make copies, or fused versions of people or life. But it doesn't create a new distinct life separate from it's parents.

Now, this doesn't mean that these transporter alternates don't deserve to live. It just means that if they are living at the expense or life of the original or originals: It is not morally just.

I mean, what happens if the transporter duplicated someone's pattern in the transporter buffer but the Transporter Chief knew he could correct the problem by hitting a few switches. Would it be wrong of him to do so then?

Tuvix is just the fusion of Neelix and Tuvok. It combined both of their brains together to create one mind that could be undone and continue to live on as two separate beings (as it was meant to). When a man and woman create a child it is indeed the fusion of their DNA, but it is also creating a new soul that doesn't always take on the exact characteristics of their parents. A child is not an unnatural fusion of two people just merging. It goes beyond that. It is a new life coming into this world and it is special and distinct and meant to live by natural means and cannot be separated back into it's parents (even with the help of a transporter).

Now, if Tuvok and Neelix consented to be turned into a new being by the means of the transporter. That would be different. But no one in their right mind would want to do that or be willing to consent to stay that way if they had a voice to say so because it is not natural.

So again, it's not murder because the Captain is simply defending her crew and Tuvix is living on as he was originally meant to live (as two separate and distinct natural beings).

 

[DonIago]

"Now, if Tuvok and Neelix consented to be turned into a new being by the means of the transporter. That would be different. But no one in their right mind would want to do that or be willing to consent to stay that way if they had a voice to say so because it is not natural."

Just curious...in your world is homosexuality natural?

I'm weighing how invested I should be in this discussion.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Well, I already suggested that I believed in God (and the Bible). That pretty much gives you your answer right there.

However, I am not going to get into a debate about something that will offend other people, though. So be careful the ground of the subject you are walking on, my friend.

 

[Saquist]

Prove to me that Tuvok and Neelix would -not- want Tuvix to exist.

DonIago:

Uhhh... the fact that they didn't want to go back into the transporter and become a mutant hybrid freak of nature again is reason enough.

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

Saquist:

Janeway was the law. She was her own country in the Delta Quadrant. And Starfleet obviously must have supported her decision because they made her an admiral. Plus, that other line says malice. There is no malice in Janeway's intent. She is simply protecting her family.

Plus, just because it is the written law of the land doesn't always mean they are right either. I mean, our courts systems are seriously flawed, man. If you have enough money you can get away with just about any crime these days. If your poor... Your screwed.

Tuvix did not commit a crime according to the definition of murder. He didn't take any action, he had no intent, he had no malic or forethought. The lack of action rules out homicide and manslaughter.

 

[DonIago]

Well, I already suggested that I believed in God (and the Bible). That pretty much gives you your answer right there.

However, I am not going to get into a debate about something that will offend other people, though. So be careful the ground of the subject you are walking on, my friend.

I wonder whether others who believe Tuvix shouldn't be considered "natural" share your beliefs in other regards as well. Academic curiosity really, as I don't have any interest in debating with anyone who feels that one's right to survival should be defined in terms of their value to others or how "natural" they are.

 

[xortex]

The technological malfunction was the murderer. It was noone in particular. It was corrected by restoring two lives that didn't want to be merged in the first place. The transporter forfeited Tuvix's rights.