Should they bring back Janeway?

[Galekarens]

The fact that some of you "antis" want to "shout down" those who has a different position from you shows something (not too good). Well, am not going to waste further my time trying to reason (lost cause, I know) with those who will not hear. KJ supporters are legion and will not go away. (And they're not just women, BTW.) I've been quite pleased at how many people want do KJ back, who support her, and the numbers who are saying so are growing. So, have fun getting hoarse. And we know she's alive. Tra la, GS (30 plus years Trek fan).

 

[JoeP]

The fact that some of you want to "shout down" those who has a different position from you shows something (not too good). Well, am not going to waste my time trying to reason (lost cause, I know) with those who will not hear.

Wow, you know what's funny? I was about to say the exact same thing.

And we know she's alive.

Then what are you bitching and moaning for?

Joe (20 plus years Trek fan)

 

[Thrawn]

This thread got even awesomer while I was asleep! There's so much to say, but I'll just stick with this:

I’ve told you before and I will say it again, we want Janeway back. We will use any venue to promote that goal be it the Trek BBS or Facebook or Twitter or anything else. You are not all the fans, you are not even a fraction of the fans, and yet you demand all of Trek, all of Trek Literature as if it was your right and it’s not. We have been shouted down the last time, we will not go away, and whenever a pole is here we will see and announce it to our fandom.

We would care nothing for your pole except that Trek authors post here and Trek editors have posted here at times, there is a Pocket Books presence here and it’s time they heard everyone, not just the usual voices of Trek Lit. No one has to like what we say, but we have the right to say it and say it we will, over and over until our goal is met.

Yes, all 100 of you are really making an impact. Please continue to shout.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Lets see, Janeway assimilated, turned into the Borg Queen and made the villain of the story so that Star Fleet has to hunt her down and kill her. Kathryn Janeway was kidnapped, raped and then murdered. All to further the development of the male character or characters of the story. It has a horrible death as are most of the ones covered under the header “Women in Refrigerators.”

To be completely honest, there are really only two ways that Janeway could go.

1) She dies a stupid death. Like falling down an elevator shaft, stepping on a landmine, a gargoyle falling off a building and smashing her flat, falling out a window, something.

2) She gets assimilated by the Borg.

Why number one, the stupid death? Because we've seen from seven years of Voyager that Janeway is Star Trek's Teela Brown; she's infinitely lucky. She wasn't going to go down fighting; if she were fighting, she'd have already won.

Why number two, the Borg assimilation? She's Starfleet's most experienced officer when it comes to the Borg. She's defeated them more times than anyone can count. If there's something to know about the Borg, she knows it. To lose her life to the Borg, well, it's ironic. She, who knows everything, who's sacrificed everything, is turned into the very thing she hates most. It is tragic, it is poetic. And in the hands of a good writer and an awake editor, a concept like that would have made a beautiful book. Unfortunately, Before Dishonor was written by Peter David and edited by Margaret Clark, so what we got was cack-handed shite.

Now, you would argue that these two endings proceed from the assumption that killing Janeway was a decision worth making. And we could go round and round and argue the merits of that. But with all due respect, you're not the person who gets paid to make that decision. For good or ill, Margaret Clark was that person, and in her considered judgment, the pros of killing Kathryn Janeway vastly outweighed the cons. It was her decision to make, she made it, and it is, like it or not, the status quo. You can argue that decision all you want, but at some point your whole argumentation becomes self-gratification because no one else cares.

 

[Thrawn]

Unfortunately, Before Dishonor was written by Peter David and edited by Margaret Clark, so what we got was cack-handed shite.

Never let it be said that the authors here only walk the party line, and never criticize each other's work, eh?

Edit: just to add, though, I think the additional background that Full Circle gives the same events does a lot of work towards turning it into that particularly poetic story you thought it could've been. For my money, even having liked Before Dishonor, it made a huge difference to the tone of her death.

 

[AuntKate]

Sorry in advance for this rant, but...

..this thread has completely lost its original intent, and has now become the battleground between sane, reasonable, Trek novel readers, and Militant Followers of the worst Trek lead character in the 2nd-worst Trek Tv show



IMO, Voyager was 80% crap, and a wasted potential if there was one on a Trek series.

IMO, Voyager novels were almost always a waste of time, and some of the most pointless Trek novels - not to mention juvenile and even absurd (yes, that's your YOY Relaunc right there).

IMO, Pocket's decision to kill off Janeway was not only a great creative decision (filled with irony due to the Borg, and a play on VOY's abysmal TV finale), but a "mercy killing" for a character which had lost its way.



I know some Janeway fans will think that I'm not a real Trek fan, as I've been watching from the start of TNG and saw TOS only in reruns (maybe even that I'm a "punk"..), and it's their right, but I just want to get some real constructive answers from these guys and gals:

1. Is what you want a return to the TV status quo?

2. Will you even read the books after Janeway's back?

3. can you let everyone know how you see her return handled?

Answers to your questions:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. I see it handled quite well by a good writer--ideally Kirsten Beyer.

The rest of your post is beneath reproach. In fact, I take offense. I am a sane, reasonable Trek novel reader and have been for over thirty years. The fact that you consider Janeway the worst lead and Voyager the second worst series is your opinion. It does not mean that those of us who like the character and series are "juvenile and absurd" or insane and unreasonable. Nor does it mean that we forfeit our right to argue our position as passionately as you do--without casting aspersions on your sanity or taste. Say what you will about Janeway, just show a little common courtesy to those who disagree with you.

 

[Thrawn]

What counts as a "return" though? An offscreen admiral character, that only appears in brief essentially cameo appearances in several novels, like she was before? Leading the fleet? Leading Voyager itself?

 

[F. King Daniel]

FWIW the old Lost Years novels (set between TOS and TMP) starred Admiral Kirk as some sort of roving diplomatic troubleshooter. It's not out of the question that KJ (which until a few posts ago I thought stood for "Kill Janeway" ) could end up in a similar role.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

6) It was a Next Generation novel, not a Voyager one.

Not that that helps anything.

Yeah but it is intersting when you consider that

In addition to Janeway's death being in a TNG novel.

- Kirk died in a TNG film
and
- Trip Tucker died in what was basically a TNG episode disguised as an ENT episode.

So it looks like TNG is where main characters from other Treks go to die.

 

[Steve Roby]

Maybe DS9 attracts a more literate crowd...
I'm just sayin.

And couldn't I just as easily say judging by the "DS9" leanings and the obvious "Woman in the Refrigerator" style of "Before Dishonor", that DS9 fans taste run more to comic book tropes.

No, you couldn't. Not and make sense, anyway. Before Dishonor is a Peter David novel first and foremost, and then a TNG novel. It has precisely fuck all to do with DS9.

It is not irrational to want the MAIN character of a TV show, which her fans invested seven and more years of their viewing life into, be placed back into the only professional media that is now available, the "Voyager" books. They are not "Voyager" without Kathryn Janeway.

A lot of us thought the DS9 books before Sisko's return were damn fine books, and damn fine DS9, including many of us who thought Sisko was a great character. And there were more than two DS9 books without Sisko.

(I've been a Star Trek fan since the early 1970s. BFD.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

The point has never been how much money they made by being "ballsy" as you call it, but rather how much money they have lost and lose every day by not keeping Janeway and writing the kind of story her fans are dying to read. That's always been the point.

Brit, Pocket Books is making money on their post-series, Janeway-less licensed fiction because the books - in fact, all of the post-series VOY novels and TNG's "Before Dishonor" - have sold incredibly well, whereas the old numbered VOY novels always lagged behind the more popular lines (TNG, NF and TOS). We know the relaubch novels sold beyond expectations because they had to be reprinted many times. So, if Pocket has lost some Janeway fans, and some VOY fans, along the way by their action of killing off the character (or, at least, sending her off to be with the Q for a while), but then gained thousands of new readers, how is that a loss to Pocket?

The death of Janeway is not hurting Pocket at all. It has brought them new readers.

And what is this phantom Janeway novel that you seem to think so many people want to buy? Haven't we already had two Janeway-centric novels: "Mosaic" and "Captain's Table: Fire Ship"? Now that the USS Voyager is returned from its TV mission, and Paramount has promoted Janeway to the admiralty (not Pocket's chooice at all), what type of novel are you supposedly looking for? I can see potential for a "Janeway vs the Q Continuum" novel that has been set up by the events of "Before Dishonor", but you want none of that either, because it seems like you won't be happy till Demoted Janeway back in the centre seat of Voyager, with her Chakotay by her side?

To back up your side, you say she has no fans or that they are few and non existent. You say prove Janeway fans exist.

I don't remember ever saying that. We know Janeway fans exist, and a few of them have been here, boasting that they never bought licensed VOY fiction because they have always preferred to write and read each others' fanfic and distribute it free to each other online.

It's the old "K/S fanzine vs licensed TOS fiction" trope all over again! In the 80s, I met lots of feisty "K/S" fans, almost all female, who rejected the idea of reading licensed ST fiction in order to read, write, illustrate, review, buy and sell amateur fanfic that placed (mainly) Kirk and Spock into the types of stories Pocket Books that would never be allowed to tell. Now it wasn't all racy porn stuff, there were also subdivisions like "hurt/comfort", where one character had o nurse the other back to health, and I guess other stuff that is now called "shipper" fanfic, a term I only learned a few years ago stumbling into some arguments here on TrekBBS.

Thrawn and I are Janeway fans. Without a doubt, Janeway would be my favourite VOY character. "Mosaic" and "Captain's Table: Fire Ship" would be my all-time favourite Janeway books. From what I've read of "Full Circle" so far, it's shaping up to be a stupendous book. I got to the end of Kirsten Beyer's preface and had shed my first tear. A lovely scene with Chakotay reacting to some terrible news. (I guess you missed out when you boycotted it.) And the reviews (and sales) have been excellent.

It cannot be proved unless you are ballsy enough to bring her back and write the kind of story we want to read, that would be what would take courage, much more courage than using Janeway in a third rate story based on a much used and now distained comic book trope. A trope that is thought of by a great number of fans, and writers as being anti female.

You're calling Kirsten Beyer's work "third rate" and you've never read a word of it? Or best-selling author, Peter David's?

Isn't putting a character "in the freezer" exactly what DS9 did with Ben Sisko at the end of its TV finale? And what "Generations" did with James Kirk at the beginning of that movie? And, in ENT, Trip Tucker was actually put into a freezer in the finale: we saw Phlox sliding Trip's body into it on a morgue tray!

So this is an anti-female trope?

It is very interesting that Pocket Books chose Peter David to write the death of Janeway, as he is familiar with the trope and actually tries to defend it as a viable plot devise.

All tropes are viable plot devices! It only depends on the skill of the writer if they pull it off or not. That's called the suspension of disbelief, an essential ingredient for most works of science fiction and fantasy.

You've decided that Peter David did not use his trope well. But it was CBS Licensing that requested that Janeway's death be given a "back door", just in case Paramount wants to use the character again canonically, and then the novels would be forced to follow canon and find a way to resurrect Janeway for future fiction.

But maybe your bizarre reactions to the character's death is what's keeping her dead? It causes polarized views, controversy and lots of publicity - and publicity sells books.

 

[Tidus79001]

According to the Simon & Schuster guidelines for submission of a Star Trek Novel it states the following:

“No death of an established crewmember or character, or any other permanent change in the Star Trek characters, settings, or universe, such as introducing offspring or close relations of the characters other than those already established”

No offence, but have you actually READ any of the books?

Spoiler: I mean they

Gave Picard and Crusher a kid after getting them married, gave Riker and Troi a kid, killed Admiral Paris, destroyed Deneva (and one of Tuvok's sons along with it) and Risa, rained destruction and/or destroyed several other planets of which Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Qo'noS were a few of, had the Tholians, Romulans, Gorn, Breen,Kinshaya, and Tzenkethi formed a major alliance that looks to possibly be a new rival for the Federation, and GOT RID OF THE BORG ONCE AND FOR ALL. I think that rule is pretty much a non factor.

Yes I have read the books. I have been reading Star Trek books since I was in my teen back in the mid 1980's.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think the additional background that Full Circle gives the same events does a lot of work towards turning it into that particularly poetic story you thought it could've been. For my money, even having liked Before Dishonor, it made a huge difference to the tone of her death.

And, of course, this was also done for those fans who read only "Voyager" tie-in material and therefore probably missed buying "Before Dishonor" because it was a TNG novel, even though it had Seven on the cover.

I think killing off Janeway in a TNG novel was very wise. Janeway (and her promotion) had been looped into TNG via "Nemesis", and TNG has traditionally been one of Pocket's best-selling lines. Had the Christie Golden VOY Relaunch novels not fallen into hiatus, the death may have occurred there first, but TNG was an excellent place to do it - and of course Kirsten Beyer then got to kill her all over again in "Full Circle".

 

[Hartzilla2007]

According to the Simon & Schuster guidelines for submission of a Star Trek Novel it states the following:

“No death of an established crewmember or character, or any other permanent change in the Star Trek characters, settings, or universe, such as introducing offspring or close relations of the characters other than those already established”

No offence, but have you actually READ any of the books?

Spoiler: I mean they

Gave Picard and Crusher a kid after getting them married, gave Riker and Troi a kid, killed Admiral Paris, destroyed Deneva (and one of Tuvok's sons along with it) and Risa, rained destruction and/or destroyed several other planets of which Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Qo'noS were a few of, had the Tholians, Romulans, Gorn, Breen,Kinshaya, and Tzenkethi formed a major alliance that looks to possibly be a new rival for the Federation, and GOT RID OF THE BORG ONCE AND FOR ALL. I think that rule is pretty much a non factor.

Yes I have read the books. I have been reading Star Trek books since I was in my teen back in the mid 1980's.

So you have noticed that the rule you pointed to (which by the way only was applied when this is the writer's first trek book ever and NOT on any further trek books they write) isn't being used by Pocket for a while now.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes I have read the books. I have been reading Star Trek books since I was in my teen back in the mid 1980's.

Then you should have recognized that those Submission Guidelines you quoted aren't ever aimed at the regular stable of ST authors.

 

[Tidus79001]

1) The people that DO hold the creative rights to the Star Trek must approve, in full, every outline and manuscript published. They DID approve of Janeway's fate.

2) In fact, they were the ones that decided to make Janeway become a Q instead of die completely, but they did not make any mandate that she return. They only required that the story be written so that, if desired, she could return at some future point.

you're both right and wrong, thrawn. PB did ask for a story where janeway was killed off, but they had no intention of bringing her back. it was CBS (who you know owns all the television trek properties) requested that she not be killed off permanently after PD had really already finished the novel. he had to go back and tack on that final chapter with janeway and lady Q.

as a VOY fan, i sympathize with the janeway fans and was saddened by her demise, even disappointed that it happened in a TNG novel. however, i have really enjoyed KB's books and don't mind if janeway is left dead for now. even though i do hope she comes back, i won't lose sleep over it if she doesn't.

Finally someone on here actually was able to follow the meaning of my statement correctly. It is CBS who holds the creative rights NOT POCKET BOOKS/SIMON & SCHUSTER. Also what happens in the books has never been considered canon in the Star Trek universe.

I know that there are a lot of Voyager haters on this board, and I don't plan on getting in shouting matching with immature people who read what I have posted. I am not a Deep Space Nine Fan, but I don't feel the need to trash it when other people like it, or have opinions about it.

I stated my opinion & feelings, and personally I don't care if you disagree with them. Oh, and for all the hate I am sure to get after this reply my preemptive response to that is "GET OVER YOURSELVES"!

 

[Tidus79001]

No offence, but have you actually READ any of the books?

Spoiler: I mean they

Gave Picard and Crusher a kid after getting them married, gave Riker and Troi a kid, killed Admiral Paris, destroyed Deneva (and one of Tuvok's sons along with it) and Risa, rained destruction and/or destroyed several other planets of which Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Qo'noS were a few of, had the Tholians, Romulans, Gorn, Breen,Kinshaya, and Tzenkethi formed a major alliance that looks to possibly be a new rival for the Federation, and GOT RID OF THE BORG ONCE AND FOR ALL. I think that rule is pretty much a non factor.

Yes I have read the books. I have been reading Star Trek books since I was in my teen back in the mid 1980's.

So you have noticed that the rule you pointed to (which by the way only was applied when this is the writer's first trek book ever and NOT on any further trek books they write) isn't being used by Pocket for a while now.

Yes I have noticed it, and I disagree with it. It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway. Also it existed to help keep unity between the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

All of you examples you gave are excellent examples of conflicts with the canon. Any new non canon written from this point out now has to work with these non canon changes instead of being able to create works from within the established canon because if they do they cause conflict to the non canon.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes I have read the books. I have been reading Star Trek books since I was in my teen back in the mid 1980's.

So you have noticed that the rule you pointed to (which by the way only was applied when this is the writer's first trek book ever and NOT on any further trek books they write) isn't being used by Pocket for a while now.

Yes I have noticed it, and I disagree with it. It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway.

So Riker and Troi should never have kids and Picard can't get married and be happy because this may anger the fans?

Because if that's the case these fictional characters need better fans.

Oh also the J/C would be shit out of luck if the writers were held to that rule.

Also it existed to help keep the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

Yeah, JJ Abrams pretty much made sure that doesn't have to be a factor for the foreseeable future.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You are the ones that didn’t read Voyager Books, you had your Next Generation books and your DS9 books but you commandeered our books and then tell us we don’t count, that your preferences are the popular ones.

Huh?

Pardon me, but I'm a completist. I buy and read every ST book, good and bad, and some of the VOY ones were excruciatingly dull. At one point I had a huge pile of unread, numbered DS9 and VOY books and I couldn't even recall where, in the sequence, I'd stopped reading. Suddenly I was in a new job with two long commute every day - and I got totally caught up by reading the pile in reverse order until I hit something that seemed familiar. (I was several chapters into a novel called "Ragnarok" when I realised I'd actually read it before and I'd finally achieved my goal.)

No one commandeered "your" books. The VOY line was failing to sell in sufficient numbers. Christie Golden managed to spike her sales and became the "Golden" haired woman for VOY fiction, which is how she ended up doing the Relaunch novels.

It was "Nemesis" that pitched Janeway into TNG territory, and she became a regular supporting character in the "A Time..." mini-series of TNG novels, while her own book series languished in limbo. It seemed to me that Janeway had essentially outgrown the VOY books by getting promoted. Without being a starship captain, it is very hard to remain the focus of a book series about a ship and its crew. (This was Admiral Kirk's problem in ST:TMP and ST II, leading to a permanent demotion in ST IV).

Unless Janeway is meant to stay aboard VOY, like Admiral Nelson on the Seaview in "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea", and thus constantly at odds with poor ol' Captain Chakotay?

 

[JoeP]

It existed for the very reason of not angering the fan of the different series by doing things just as they didn't with Admiral Janeway. Also it existed to help keep the canon (tv series, and movies) & non Canon (books) for having major conflicting storylines.

No, it doesn't. As has been pointed out by the authors here, and the POST THAT YOU QUOTED, it exists only for new writers who choose to submit ideas so that they can demonstrate that they can work within boundaries set by editors. It hasn't nothing to do with appeasing militant fans, or for keeping the novels consistent with canon.