Is Enterprise Canon?

[Mach5]

Yea, Middleman, dude... Get a life, will you?

Yeah I know! I need to get out of the basment, shave, put on a clean shirt and find a girlfriend.

Totally dude, it's about time... You're not getting any younger, and that basement needs to get cleaned sooner or later anyway...

 

[Noname Given]

It's about the writing...plain an simple.
The product it's self.

If that were true - TNG would have been cancelled 10 episodes in. TNG survived based on the fact that origonal Star Trek fans (like me) WANTED to see Star Trtek return - so we kept watching for 2 1/2 seasons praying teh writing and characterization would improve.

 

[Saquist]

It's about the writing...plain an simple.
The product it's self.

If that were true - TNG would have been cancelled 10 episodes in. TNG survived based on the fact that origonal Star Trek fans (like me) WANTED to see Star Trtek return - so we kept watching for 2 1/2 seasons praying teh writing and characterization would improve.

I've never found anything wrong with the writing of the early seasons...it wasn't inspiring either but it's not a crime against the Academy or anything. Good Lord it was the 80's...

 

[Luther Sloan]

Is "Star Trek: Enterprise" Canon or Not Canon?

The short answer is... yes. It is canon. However, "Enterprise" also broke previous Trek canon, though.

In other words, although I believe "Enterprise" to be canon, I personally do believe it violated previous Trek canon and doesn't belong in the Core Trek Time Line but rather in an Alternate Time Line, instead.

What is the difference between canon broke within Enterprise versus the canon broke within the other series you might ask?

Star Trek Enterprise's canonical mistakes unnecessarily draws attention to itself in the fact that it copies or re-hashes (without any logic) things from the 24th Century. It violates the very core of what the show is supposed to be (Which is a prequel series). However, what makes it worse is that it not only deliberately ignores canon but they don't give us a proper explanation as to why such changes are made either. Oh, sure we can guess that Enterprise is some kind of Temporal Cold War or First Contact Time Line. However, we shouldn't have to apologize for a show that has repetitive story lines, illogical recycling of the 24th Century, a Vulcan in a sex suit, lack of character development, unexplained story arcs, and sub par acting.

Now, I don't mind a re-polished or updated look within the Trek Universe. In fact, it totally worked in JJ Abram's Star Trek, and you know why? They didn't radically change the technology to make you think it was no longer Kirk's era anymore. There was no holodecks, TR-116 rifles, or saucer separating star ships.

I mean, it was made very clear long ago that the 22nd Century was supposed to be a lot more primitive and different than the way we see it on Enterprise. I mean, what is worse is that we shouldn't even have to be told that the 22nd Century should look and feel differently than the 23rd or 24th Century. It is just pure logic that each Century should bring about major significant and easily recognizable differences.

In fact, the point I am trying to make here is that there has to be some realm of believability within the movies or television shows we watch. Otherwise we wouldn't watch them in the first place.


Anyways, here is a list Enterprise's Canon Breakers...

Enterprise's Canon Violations (or Possible Problems):



1. Earth had primitive ships with no view screens that used primitive atomic weapons:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61078

Spock specifically stated in TOS "Balance of Terror" that there was no visual ship to ship communication (no view screens) and that Earth used primitive vessels with primitive atomic (nuclear based) type weapons in the Earth Romulan War.

2. No Enterprise NX-01 mentioned:

TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61083
DS9: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61091

Yeah, although this is not concrete proof on it's own: In TNG "Relics", Scotty asks the holodeck to bring up the Enterprise. The computer says there are five Federation starships by that name. Granted, Archer's ship was not an official Federation ship. But it was a rather important ship within the formation of the Federation, though. And should have been mentioned by the computer. Again, this scene by itself is not all that conclusive.

However, we do have another scene that helps further corroborate this scene in TNG within Deep Space Nine, though. In DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations", Sisko is asked by a Temporal Investigations agent which Enterprise he is referring to (when he time traveled). Sisko tells the two agents that it was the first Enterprise (Kirk's ship). The other agent helps out and says there are six starships with the name Enterprise. Now if we were to count all six of those starships at that point, it would be the...

1. NCC-1701
2. NCC-1701-A
3. NCC-1701-B
4. NCC-1701-C
5. NCC-1701-D
6. NCC-1701-E

So between the Enterprise D computer, Scotty, Sisko, and two temporal investigation agents: the NX-01 is not mentioned as being a significant Enterprise or starship, even though it was a rather important ship in helping to form the Federation (Regardless if the NX-01 was a Federation ship or not).


3. Romulan Cloaking Device was discovered in the 23rd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61097

In TOS "Balance of Terror", Spock and Kirk are both surprised when they see the Romulan ship's cloaking technology. Spock theorizes about the requirements needed for this technology seeing it is the first time he has seen (or gained knowledge of) something like this. Yet, on "Enterprise" we see a Romulan ship de-cloak right before Archer's eyes.

4. No Klingon First Contact Disaster:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61096

In TNG's TV episode titled "First Contact", Picard mentions to the ambassador that "first contact" with Klingons led to decades of war, which eventually led Starfleet to do surveillance of new alien cultures or worlds before making "first contact". But in ENT's "Broken Bow" there was no indication that "first contact" went bad in any way. Sure, you can interpret the "first contact" scene to mean that the event in "Broken Bow" caused problems later on, which led to decades of war. But it we didn't see it happen at any point within the series, though. Besides, at the time the TNG episode aired, it was pretty clear that Picard was referring to an incident that was a lot more disastrous and not an event that came about peacefully initially (like we seen in "Broken Bow").

5. No Women Captains yet in the TOS Series:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60122

In TOS's "Turnabout Intruder", Janice Lester states to Kirk that... "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women". Many folks think that Janice was talking about Kirk leaving her to be a Captain. However, Kirk later said that Lester tortured and punished him over the fact that his world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women. How can Janice punish Kirk if he left her? In other words, what this scene really means is that it is possible for women to become Captains within Starfleet, but there just hasn't been any women Captains yet with that particular point in time within the Original Series (because of the difficulties of the test or whatever).

To read the full argument. Please, check out this post here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3979643&postcount=115

6. No phasers in the 22nd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61103

In TNG's "A Matter of Time", Worf stated that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century. Yet we see phase pistols that closely resemble phasers in Archer's era. In the episode, the time traveler was asking what was the most "important" examples of progress in the last 200 years to Commander Riker. He was not asking for subtle changes within history. He was asking for significant changes within history. That is why Riker mentioned the Warp coil. So when Worf later volunteered that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century, how can it be that phase pistols were not mentioned seeing they are essentially an earlier version of the phaser? I mean, sure the phaser had more powerful effects. However, you would think that the phase pistol would have been mentioned seeing it is essentially an energy based weapon that was the blue print for the phaser.

7. TNG's Pegasus & TATV:

ENT: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61250
TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61409

You will note that Riker says in ENT's "These Are The Voyages" that he is ready to talk to Captain Picard now after his little holodeck lesson. So he then walks out of the holodeck with Troi and the camera zooms out to show the Enterprise D in the asteroid field.

However, Riker never went to Picard and revealed the truth about the secret he was carrying. Riker was convinced to reveal the truth to Picard only when the Romulans trapped the Enterprise inside the asteroid (where the starship Pegasus was). Also, lets say Riker was going to go to Picard to reveal the truth to him and later got interrupted by the crisis of being trapped within the asteroid. Riker surely wouldn't be fooling around in the holodeck after he just retrieved sensitive technology and being inside the asteroid. Also, if Riker had done this holodeck program before discovering the "Pegasus", how come he didn't go to Picard like he said he would? So this suggests that the events in TATV are different than the way we know them in the TNG "Pegasus" episode.




Enterprise goes back to 24th Century...

Star Trek Enterprise seems more like a show that has gone back to the future or the 24th Century again instead of actually getting inventive and making us truly believe this was a 22nd Century Trek show.

Enterprise vs Other Trek:

1. View screens (View screens)
2. Phase pistols (Phasers)
3. Phase cannons (Phasers)
4. Photonic Torpedoes (Quantum torpedoes)
5. Subspace Plasma Pocket Injectors (Anti Tachyon Emitters)
6. Polarized Hull Plating (Shields)
7. T'Pol's sex suit (Seven of Nine's sex suit)
8. Transporter (Transporter)
9. Romulan cloaking device (Romulan cloaking device)
10. TNG style Romulan outfits (TNG style Romulan outfits)
11. 24th Century Borg (24th Century Borg)
12. 24th Century Ferengi (24th Century Ferengi)
13. Black leather Section 31 outfits (Black leather Section 31 outfits)
14. Planet or New Humanoid Looking Alien Race of the Week Show (Ditto)
15. Dr Phlox (Neelix)
16. The exterior of NX-01 is literally a duplicate of a 24th Century ship.
17. Universal Translator (Universal Translator)

What Enterprise Should Have Been:

1. The Ship should have been called the Pheonix (And not the Enterprise)
2. No view screens
3. No phase pistols (Non energy type weapons only)
4. No phasers (Regular Missiles)
5. No Photonic Torpedoes (Nuclear Missiles)
6. A Ship that doesn't look like the Enterprise or any other copy of a 24th Century ship.
7. Talented Lead Actor and cast (No Scott Bakula and non charismatic cast)
8. No Aliens on the ship
9. The formation of the Federation
10. Klingon First Contact Disaster
11. No Romulan Cloaking Devices
12. Early events leading up to the Romulan Earth War.
13. No Transporters (or at least no Transporters that can transport living matter)
14. Vulcans should have never been on Earth yet.
15. Vulcans should have been more logical and less emotional.
16. Alien encounters should have been either shocking or scary about 90% of the time.
17. Actual Character Development.
18. No Universal Translators and only a small fraction of the alien races they run up against they could actually communicate with at all.

In other words, it ain't a normal prequel if everything stays the same with the previous shows.

Also, just looking at "Star Trek: Enterprise", I am not given the impression visually that it is any different than the 24th or 23rd Centuries.

So that is why I believe "Star Trek: Enterprise" to be an alternate time line.

In fact, if your interested, you can check out my reasons for "Enterprise" being an alternate time line by checking out my other post here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997390&postcount=71

Thank you for reading.


Side Note:

Oh, and I am not interested in getting into a great taste / less filling type debate over this either. If you feel I have made an error and can convince me of it, please by all means tell me intelligently and with kindness and respect. Also, if you don't explain yourself properly, or misunderstand me (constantly), or have no interest in backing up your debate with searchable sources, please don't reply or know that I might put my "shields up and ignore all hails" function on you.

 

[SFRabid]

As for point 5, Turnabout Intruder is better forgotten and broken. I see no valid reason to stick with 1960's mentality in a modern show, much less expect such backward thinking to hold that far into the future.

If Enterprise had continued and gone into the Romulan war I would say, let them be seen. Forget the idiocy that humans and Romulans had a war in which a human never got to see what a Romulan looked like.

Yes, some canon needs to be broker.

 

[Nerys Myk]

1. Earth had primitive ships with no view screens that used primitive atomic weapons:



Spock specifically stated in TOS "Balance of Terror" that there was no visual ship to ship communication (no view screens) and that Earth used primitive vessels with primitive atomic (nuclear based) type weapons in the Earth Romulan War.

That line is open to interpretation. And only exists as a plot device to serve a single scene. Of course the idea that the ship wouldn't have veiwscreens in the 22nd Century is pretty absurd given the level of visual communication technology they had in the 1960s and we have today. A more logical interpretation is that the Romualans blocked visual communication or their methods were incompatable with Earths. The key part of Spocks statement is "by our standards". Which can easily be taken to infer that the Enterprise's current weapons are "atomic" based. Since the NX-01's weapons are less powerful, they qualifiy as primitive.

2. No Enterprise NX-01 mentioned:

TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61083
DS9: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61091

Yeah, although this is not concrete proof on it's own: In TNG "Relics", Scotty asks the holodeck to bring up the Enterprise. The computer says there are five Federation starships by that name. Granted, Archer's ship was not an official Federation ship. But it was a rather important ship within the formation of the Federation, though. And should have been mentioned by the computer. Again, this scene by itself is not all that conclusive.

However, we do have another scene that helps further corroborate this scene in TNG within Deep Space Nine, though. In DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations", Sisko is asked by a Temporal Investigations agent which Enterprise he is referring to (when he time traveled). Sisko tells the two agents that it was the first Enterprise (Kirk's ship). The other agent helps out and says there are six starships with the name Enterprise. Now if we were to count all six of those starships at that point, it would be the...

1. NCC-1701
2. NCC-1701-A
3. NCC-1701-B
4. NCC-1701-C
5. NCC-1701-D
6. NCC-1701-E

So between the Enterprise D computer, Scotty, Sisko, and two temporal investigation agents: the NX-01 is not mentioned as being a significant Enterprise or starship, even though it was a rather important ship in helping to form the Federation (Regardless if the NX-01 was a Federation ship or not).

That also leaves out the Ringship Enterprise. Which was the first Earth space vessel to use the name. (See TMP)

In Relics Scott asks to see his ship. Why would the computer include a ship that was decommisioned before he was born?

3. Romulan Cloaking Device was discovered in the 23rd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61097

In TOS "Balance of Terror", Spock and Kirk are both surprised when they see the Romulan ship's cloaking technology. Spock theorizes about the requirements needed for this technology seeing it is the first time he has seen (or gained knowledge of) something like this. Yet, on "Enterprise" we see a Romulan ship de-cloak right before Archer's eyes.

No getting around this one. It was a mistake and they said so.

4. No Klingon First Contact Disaster:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61096

In TNG's TV episode titled "First Contact", Picard mentions to the ambassador that "first contact" with Klingons led to decades of war, which eventually led Starfleet to do surveillance of new alien cultures or worlds before making "first contact". But in ENT's "Broken Bow" there was no indication that "first contact" went bad in any way. Sure, you can interpret the "first contact" scene to mean that the event in "Broken Bow" caused problems later on, which led to decades of war. But it we didn't see it happen at any point within the series, though. Besides, at the time the TNG episode aired, it was pretty clear that Picard was referring to an incident that was a lot more disastrous and not an event that came about peacefully initially (like we seen in "Broken Bow").

It was pretty disasterous. They violated Klingon custome, pissed off the Chancellor and most other contacts with the Klingons didn't go too well. Sounds like a disaster too me.

Even the guy who wrote that line (TBBS poster and former TNG writer Dennis Bailey) says its a throw away line of no real importance. Since the Federation's first contact policy was based on Vulcan protocals, maybe Picard was referring to the first contact between the Vulcans and the Klingons.

5. No Women Captains yet in the TOS Series:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60122

In TOS's "Turnabout Intruder", Janice Lester states to Kirk that... "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women". Many folks think that Janice was talking about Kirk leaving her to be a Captain. However, Kirk later said that Lester tortured and punished him over the fact that his world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women. How can Janice punish Kirk if he left her? In other words, what this scene really means is that it is possible for women to become Captains within Starfleet, but there just hasn't been any women Captains yet with that particular point in time within the Original Series (because of the difficulties of the test or whatever).

To read the full argument. Please, check out this post here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3979643&postcount=115

The woman's crazy. End of story. Even hardest of the hardcore TOS is the only Trek fans dismiss this as meaning no female captains.

6. No phasers in the 22nd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61103

In TNG's "A Matter of Time", Worf stated that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century. Yet we see phase pistols that closely resemble phasers in Archer's era. In the episode, the time traveler was asking what was the most "important" examples of progress in the last 200 years to Commander Riker. He was not asking for subtle changes within history. He was asking for significant changes within history. That is why Riker mentioned the Warp coil. So when Worf later volunteered that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century, how can it be that phase pistols were not mentioned seeing they are essentially an earlier version of the phaser? I mean, sure the phaser had more powerful effects. However, you would think that the phase pistol would have been mentioned seeing it is essentially an energy based weapon that was the blue print for the phaser.

Still not a phaser. It woulld be like calling a single shot pistol the same as a revolver. Both use similar principles and can be called handguns, but one is more advanced. What ever happend to make a phaser more powerful ( the Energy Recticulation?) occured after the 22nd Century.

7. TNG: Pegasus: TATV:

ENT: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61250
TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61409

You will note that Riker says in ENT's "These Are The Voyages" that he is ready to talk to Captain Picard now after his little holodeck lesson. So he then walks out of the holodeck with Troi and the camera zooms out to show the Enterprise D in the asteroid field.

However, Riker never went to Picard and revealed the truth about the secret he was carrying. Riker was convinced to reveal the truth to Picard only when the Romulans trapped the Enterprise inside the asteroid (where the starship Pegasus was). Also, lets say Riker was going to go to Picard to reveal the truth to him and later got interrupted by the crisis of being trapped within the asteroid. Riker surely wouldn't be fooling around in the holodeck after he just retrieved sensitive technology and being inside the asteroid. Also, if Riker had done this holodeck program before discovering the "Pegasus", how come he didn't go to Picard like he said he would? So this suggests that the events in TATV are different than the way we know them in the TNG "Pegasus" episode.

yeah and Riker was fatter and older too!!!!!

Since we saw him do this its what he must have done. Thats how canon works.

Star Trek Enterprise seems more like a show that has gone back to the future or the 24th Century again instead of actually getting inventive and making us truly believe this was a 22nd Century Trek show.

Enterprise vs Other Trek:

Why the 24th Century and not the 23rd? All three Centuries use similar technology. Why not complain that the 24th Century aren't more advanced than TOS even though its been 100 years.

1. View screens (View screens)

1. View screens (View screens)
Covered above.

2. Phase pistols (Phasers)

Phasers (Phasers)
At least in ENT they changed the name! Originality Points awarded to ENT, None to TNG.

3. Phase cannons (Phasers)

3. Phasers (Phasers)
At least in ENT they changed the name!Originality Points awarded to ENT, None to TNG.

4. Photonic Torpedoes (Quantum torpedoes)

4. Photon Torpedoes (Photon/Quantum torpedoes)
At least in ENT they changed the name! OriginalityPoints awarded to ENT, None to TNG.

5. Subspace Plasma Pocket Injectors (Anti Tachyon Emitters)

I dont even know what the hell either one of these do or if they are similar.

6. Polarized Hull Plating (Shields)

6. Shields (Shields)
Similar function but different technology in ENT. Originality Points awarded to ENT, None to TNG.

7. T'Pol's sex suit (Seven of Nine's sex suit)

6. Uhura's Mini skirt (Troi's miniskirt)
Hubba hubba Points all around!

8. Transporter (Transporter)

8. Transporter (Transporter)
Recent invention in ENT and a bit scary, Not the primary means of Landing Party/Ship to Ship transport. ENT uses shuttle pods. Originality Points awarded to ENT, None to TNG.

9. Romulan cloaking device (Romulan cloaking device)

9. Romulan cloaking device (Romulan cloaking device) , No originality points to TNG.

These next few are different types of complaints so I'll change tac.

10. TNG style Romulan outfits (TNG style Romulan outfits)

All the shows recycled. It saves money.

11. 24th Century Borg (24th Century Borg)

Since they're time travelers from the 24th Century, the problem is?

12. 24th Century Ferengi (24th Century Ferengi)

They're 22nd Century Ferengi. The Ferengi have been know to the Federation since before TNG's timeframe.

13. Black leather Section 31 outfits (Black leather Section 31 outfits)

What? So Section 31 likes black. The USAF likes Blue. Whats the problem again?

14. Planet or New Humanoid Looking Alien Race of the Week Show (Ditto)

This has alway been true for Star Trek. Almost a mandate.

15. Dr Phlox (Neelix)

And???? Different characters and different Make up.

16. The exterior of NX-01 is literally a duplicate of a 24th Century ship.

No. They are similar but not literal dupilcates. NX-01 boasts several TOS features that the Akira lacks.

Back to this.

17. Universal Translator (Universal Translator)

17. Universal Translator (Universal Translator)
Worked very differently in ENT than in any of the other shows. Hoshi actually had to work at tranlsations. Originallity Points to ENT, none to TNG.

 

[Luther Sloan]

As for point 5, Turnabout Intruder is better forgotten and broken. I see no valid reason to stick with 1960's mentality in a modern show, much less expect such backward thinking to hold that far into the future.

SF Rabid:

Yeah, I can understand how you feel. For one it is a very contrary to what Star Trek normally is about and secondly it is a very touchy subject, too.

If Enterprise had continued and gone into the Romulan war I would say, let them be seen. Forget the idiocy that humans and Romulans had a war in which a human never got to see what a Romulan looked like.

I don't know. I just really have fond memories and cherish the other Star Trek shows more than Enterprise. But each to their own I guess.

Yes, some canon needs to be broken.

Yeah, everyone looks at movies and TV differently. Some folks like a little more believability in them and others just like them if they were entertained enough.

I mean, if we were not all different, we would be no better than the Borg, I guess.

 

[SFRabid]

...
Yeah, everyone looks at movies and TV differently. Some folks like a little more believability in them and others just like them if they were entertained enough.

I mean, if we were not all different, we would be no better than the Borg, I guess.

Exactly. I like different views. If people did not think differently there would be no need for discussions. Discussions are great as long as people avoid the "I'm right and you are wrong" when in entertainment all there really can be is "what I like and what you like".

One thing that has affected my view of canon, as I mentioned in another thread, over the past 6 months I have watched every episode and every movie in Trek on DVD. It amazes me that with so many movies and episodes in one franchise we don't have more canon problems. Not just because there are so many stories, but also because so many writers are involved. I wonder how many writers are in the credits off all official canon Trek?

 

[Luther Sloan]

That line is open to interpretation. And only exists as a plot device to serve a single scene.

Nerys:

Greetings and good day to you sir!

Well, I don't want to get into a debate over this (so I may not reply back) but I have a different viewpoint when it comes to watching TV and films. I like to pick apart the little details that don't make sense for fun sometimes. Not everyone thinks this way of course. Which I totally respect and get. It is after all just entertainment and or fiction, anyways.

Personally in my view of video entertainment: is that if you believe one line or scene for what it is, you have to believe the next one and so on and so on. But that's just me and there is nothing wrong with anyone else thinking differently of course.

So I am totally cool with your particular viewpoint on this, even though I may not personally agree with it.

Of course the idea that the ship wouldn't have veiwscreens in the 22nd Century is pretty absurd given the level of visual communication technology they had in the 1960s and we have today.

Space shuttles and Zefram Cochrane's ship do not have big giant view screens replacing the cockpit windows.

A more logical interpretation is that the Romualans blocked visual communication or their methods were incompatable with Earths. The key part of Spocks statement is "by our standards". Which can easily be taken to infer that the Enterprise's current weapons are "atomic" based. Since the NX-01's weapons are less powerful, they qualifiy as primitive.

You are neither wrong nor right. But personally for me that sounds like an explanation that is goes contrary to what the episode originally meant. Any other excuse seems like a desperate attempt to fit Enterprise into a time line it shouldn't be in. But that's just my viewpoint so I would rather not debate it.

That also leaves out the Ringship Enterprise. Which was the first Earth space vessel to use the name. (See TMP)

Yeah, although the "Making of Star Trek: the motion picture" book claims that the USS Enterprise (XCV 330) (Ringship) was the first starship to be named "Enterprise"; it was never officially stated on screen that it was a starship by name, though. The ship was only seen in scenes like this...

Oh, and by the way, this image brings up a lot of fond memories of me seeing TMP in the theater when I was a little kid, too.

Ah, the nostalgia of it all.

In Relics Scott asks to see his ship. Why would the computer include a ship that was decommisioned before he was born?

Yeah, I did say this one wasn't an all that conclusive of a scene in TNG. You might be right in the fact that the computer might have guessed the average person's life span of humans and vulcans and named off only the relevant ships of what the individual wanted or was interested in.

But I do believe the Deep Space Nine scene rules in favor of this TNG episode scene, though. But that's just my interpretation of it, though.

It was pretty disasterous. They violated Klingon custome, pissed off the Chancellor and most other contacts with the Klingons didn't go too well. Sounds like a disaster too me.

Not really. There might have been some odd or uncomfortable words said, but nothing that serious that would be labeled as disastrous, though. I mean, it wasn't like they tried to kill them later for it. The attacks they ran into were from other Klingons. Not from the incident at Broken Bow.

But it doesn't sound like you would agree with this viewpoint. So let's just agree to disagree on this one and move on.

Even the guy who wrote that line (TBBS poster and former TNG writer Dennis Bailey) says its a throw away line of no real importance. Since the Federation's first contact policy was based on Vulcan protocals, maybe Picard was referring to the first contact between the Vulcans and the Klingons.

I am honored that Dennis Bailey posted here. That is really cool. He sounds like a nice guy. However, I am going to have to stick by my guns and still say it isn't canon unless it is officially stated by the studio. Which is basically just the 5 live action series and the films of course. Plus, TV episodes are written by multiple writers sometimes and things change last minute or in the heat of creation. What ever ends up on screen and is authorized by the studio as canon is the real deciding factor here.

The woman's crazy. End of story. Even hardest of the hardcore TOS is the only Trek fans dismiss this as meaning no female captains.

Yeah, I am hardcore in my views sometimes with Trek. Sorry about that. And I also do realize it is a touchy subject too (which makes me unpopular for interpreting it this way). Not that I am happy at the possibility that there might not have been no female Captains within the TOS series mind you. It is just my personal viewpoint on the episode.

Still not a phaser. It woulld be like calling a single shot pistol the same as a revolver. Both use similar principles and can be called handguns, but one is more advanced. What ever happend to make a phaser more powerful ( the Energy Recticulation?) occured after the 22nd Century.

In the episode, the time traveler was asking what was the "most important" examples of progress in the last 200 years.

So if the time traveler was asking for the most important examples within history, wouldn't Worf mention the phase pistol or the first blue print for the phaser?

I mean, I might have let this one slide, but the time traveler was not asking for subtle changes within history. He was asking for significant changes within history. There is a difference.

Plus, when Worf said that there was no phasers in the 22nd Century that is like saying the phase pistol had no connection to the phaser whatsoever.

yeah and Riker was fatter and older too!!!!!
Since we saw him do this its what he must have done. Thats how canon works.

Well, not everyone is as loose with the interpretations of Trek episodes course. But it's cool, man. We are all different.

Why the 24th Century and not the 23rd? All three Centuries use similar technology. Why not complain that the 24th Century aren't more advanced than TOS even though its been 100 years.

Because it is 200 years not 100 years. And the other previous Trek series strongly suggested that the 22nd Century was a lot more primitive than what was seen on Enterprise.

Anyways, lets just say we have different views on this particular subject and leave it be and move on, my friend.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Exactly. I like different views. If people did not think differently there would be no need for discussions. Discussions are great as long as people avoid the "I'm right and you are wrong" when in entertainment all there really can be is "what I like and what you like".

SF Rabid:

Well said.

One thing that has affected my view of canon, as I mentioned in another thread, over the past 6 months I have watched every episode and every movie in Trek on DVD. It amazes me that with so many movies and episodes in one franchise we don't have more canon problems. Not just because there are so many stories, but also because so many writers are involved. I wonder how many writers are in the credits off all official canon Trek?

I know, I thought this before once, too. It is pretty amazing indeed that Trek has a pretty solid and detailed universe going on.

 

[Gagarin]

Well, it's canon.
My beef was this:

You tell a prequel story. On purpose.
Yet you use, over time, nearly everything that the other series use.

Borg. Romulans. Klingons. 'Phase pistols'. 'Photonic torpedos'.
You use the name Enterprise.
Vulcan "science" officer - or whatever.

Uhm.
So why did you do a prequel?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Gagarin:

Yeah... exactly.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That line is open to interpretation. And only exists as a plot device to serve a single scene.

Nerys:

Greetings and good day to you sir!

Well, I don't want to get into a debate over this (so I may not reply back) but I have a different viewpoint when it comes to watching TV and films. I like to pick apart the little details that don't make sense for fun sometimes. Not everyone thinks this way of course. Which I totally respect and get. It is after all just entertainment and or fiction, anyways.

Personally in my view of video entertainment: is that if you believe one line or scene for what it is, you have to believe the next one and so on and so on. But that's just me and there is nothing wrong with anyone else thinking differently of course.

So I am totally cool with your particular viewpoint on this, even though I may not personally agree with it.

When I see a problem I look for solutions. Thats how I approach long running serial fiction. I prefer to "build" rather than "destroy". So I take a scientific or historical approach to the problem solving. New information or data means I have to re-evalute what has come before. Some times the new data overrides the previous date or changes how that data is perceived or interpreted.

Space shuttles and Zefram Cochrane's ship do not have big giant view screens replacing the cockpit windows.

But they do have widows and shuttles have cameras for visual communications. So the idea that a ship in the 22nd would not have some way to recieve or transmitt visual communications isn't logical.

You are neither wrong nor right. But personally for me that sounds like an explanation that is goes contrary to what the episode originally meant. Any other excuse seems like a desperate attempt to fit Enterprise into a time line it shouldn't be in. But that's just my viewpoint so I would rather not debate it.

Its original meaning was to explore bigotry. Keeping the Romulans Vulcan features unseen was to play up that aspect. It was illogical froma tech standpoint, but helped drive the drama. Finding a way to keep the drama and erase the illogic is all I'm doing.

Yeah, although the "Making of Star Trek: the motion picture" book claims that the USS Enterprise (XCV 330) (Ringship) was the first official starship to be named "Enterprise"; it was never officially stated on screen that it was a starship by name, though. The ship was only seen in scenes like this...

It shows up again in ENT "First Flight". Starship is pretty generic, even more in later series.

But I do believe the Deep Space Nine scene rules in favor of this TNG episode scene, though. But that's just my interpretation of it, though.

My interpretation is that they are only concerned with temporal incursions that involve the Federation. And since the NX-01 is not a UFP ship or able to time travel it would not be included in a list of possible Enterprises.

Not really. There might have been some odd or uncomfortable words said, but nothing that serious that would be labeled as disastrous, though. I mean, it wasn't like they tried to kill them later for it. The attacks they ran into were from other Klingons. Not from the incident at Broken Bow.

Again I take the historical approach. From the perspective of Picard the events of the past taken together would look like a disasterous chain of events.

So if the time traveler was asking for the most important examples within history, wouldn't Worf mention the phase pistol or the first blue print for the phaser?

Why? If the phaser is better than the phase pistol and put Earth and the Federation on a equal to or superior footing than their military rivals then the phaser is more important.

Because it is 200 years not 100 years. And the other previous Trek series strongly suggested that the 22nd Century was a lot more primitive than what was seen on Enterprise.

its 100 year between TOS and TNG. In theory there should be new and more advanced technologies by then.

We have very little info on the 22nd Century. Nothing that "strongly" suggests that ENT is not adequately "primitive".

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, it's canon.
My beef was this:

You tell a prequel story. On purpose.
Yet you use, over time, nearly everything that the other series use.

Borg. Romulans. Klingons. 'Phase pistols'. 'Photonic torpedos'.
You use the name Enterprise.
Vulcan "science" officer - or whatever.

Uhm.
So why did you do a prequel?

Because prequel doesnt mean you cant use that stuff.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Nerys:

Well, it seemed to me like you glazed over the points I was trying to make. But that's okay. We are talking about something fictional anyways. Let's call a truce and just agree to disagree. It doesn't sound like we are going to win over each other's personal viewpoints on this one, my friend.

*Extends an olive branch*

 

[Nerys Myk]

I read every word and constructed my counterpoints based on what I read, my friend. Not really much more I can add, without repeating myself. So I guess I'll leave it at that and observe the truce.

 

[Gagarin]

Well, it's canon.
My beef was this:

You tell a prequel story. On purpose.
Yet you use, over time, nearly everything that the other series use.

Borg. Romulans. Klingons. 'Phase pistols'. 'Photonic torpedos'.
You use the name Enterprise.
Vulcan "science" officer - or whatever.

Uhm.
So why did you do a prequel?

Because prequel doesnt mean you cant use that stuff.

But relying on them, as Enterprise does, removes the point of doing a prequel. You do a prequel to tell other stories that you couldn't tell in a sequel. You do a prequel to flesh out concepts that weren't ever developed or never explored. You don't do a prequel to keep saying "surprise! we're going to show the Ferangi this week! surprise! it's the Borg! surprise! It's the Romulans, and they can cloak! surprise! we've got the Klingons, too!".

If you needed or wanted to tell stories about those things, they should have done a Voyager/DS9 sequel. If they wanted to stay safe with familiar technology, they should have done a sequel.

If you want to change up the format, the look, the situations, you do a prequel. Star Trek that doesn't have glowy beam weapons or glowy globs of light fights? What? Star Trek where space travel is really, really hard - what?

You don't do a prequel to keep all the chess pieces the same. You do one to change things up.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm not going to read every page of this thread but:

Is Enterprise canon?
Yes 100%. All TV/film Trek is canon. End of story.

Is Enterprise entirely consistant with other Treks?
No. But no Trek is. Enterprise did seem to make dumber blunders than most (which made for some hilarious YouTube videos, search "Star Trek mistakes" )

Was Enterprise good?
Quality has nothing to do with it's canon-ness.

This isn't so much about canon, but "fanon" - whether it fits into everyone's personal "vision" of Trek.

 

[SFRabid]

I always thought you did a prequit to show the beginning of things that were liked in the sequal. That is what they did with Star Wars, Terminator, etc...

 

[Saquist]

Spoiler: One Great Argument

Is "Star Trek: Enterprise" Canon or Not Canon?

The short answer is... yes. It is canon. However, "Enterprise" also broke previous Trek canon, though.

In other words, although I believe "Enterprise" to be canon, I personally do believe it violated previous Trek canon and doesn't belong in the Core Trek Time Line but rather in an Alternate Time Line, instead.

What is the difference between canon broke within Enterprise versus the canon broke within the other series you might ask?

Star Trek Enterprise's canonical mistakes unnecessarily draws attention to itself in the fact that it copies or re-hashes (without any logic) things from the 24th Century. It violates the very core of what the show is supposed to be (Which is a prequel series). However, what makes it worse is that it not only deliberately ignores canon but they don't give us a proper explanation as to why such changes are made either. Oh, sure we can guess that Enterprise is some kind of Temporal Cold War or First Contact Time Line. However, we shouldn't have to apologize for a show that has repetitive story lines, illogical recycling of the 24th Century, a Vulcan in a sex suit, lack of character development, unexplained story arcs, and sub par acting.

Now, I don't mind a re-polished or updated look within the Trek Universe. In fact, it totally worked in JJ Abram's Star Trek, and you know why? They didn't radically change the technology to make you think it was no longer Kirk's era anymore. There was no holodecks, TR-116 rifles, or saucer separating star ships.

I mean, it was made very clear long ago that the 22nd Century was supposed to be a lot more primitive and different than the way we see it on Enterprise. I mean, what is worse is that we shouldn't even have to be told that the 22nd Century should look and feel differently than the 23rd or 24th Century. It is just pure logic that each Century should bring about major significant and easily recognizable differences.

In fact, the point I am trying to make here is that there has to be some realm of believability within the movies or television shows we watch. Otherwise we wouldn't watch them in the first place.


Anyways, here is a list Enterprise's Canon Breakers...

Enterprise's Canon Violations (or Possible Problems):



1. Earth had primitive ships with no view screens that used primitive atomic weapons:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61078

Spock specifically stated in TOS "Balance of Terror" that there was no visual ship to ship communication (no view screens) and that Earth used primitive vessels with primitive atomic (nuclear based) type weapons in the Earth Romulan War.

2. No Enterprise NX-01 mentioned:

TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61083
DS9: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61091

Yeah, although this is not concrete proof on it's own: In TNG "Relics", Scotty asks the holodeck to bring up the Enterprise. The computer says there are five Federation starships by that name. Granted, Archer's ship was not an official Federation ship. But it was a rather important ship within the formation of the Federation, though. And should have been mentioned by the computer. Again, this scene by itself is not all that conclusive.

However, we do have another scene that helps further corroborate this scene in TNG within Deep Space Nine, though. In DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations", Sisko is asked by a Temporal Investigations agent which Enterprise he is referring to (when he time traveled). Sisko tells the two agents that it was the first Enterprise (Kirk's ship). The other agent helps out and says there are six starships with the name Enterprise. Now if we were to count all six of those starships at that point, it would be the...

1. NCC-1701
2. NCC-1701-A
3. NCC-1701-B
4. NCC-1701-C
5. NCC-1701-D
6. NCC-1701-E

So between the Enterprise D computer, Scotty, Sisko, and two temporal investigation agents: the NX-01 is not mentioned as being a significant Enterprise or starship, even though it was a rather important ship in helping to form the Federation (Regardless if the NX-01 was a Federation ship or not).


3. Romulan Cloaking Device was discovered in the 23rd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61097

In TOS "Balance of Terror", Spock and Kirk are both surprised when they see the Romulan ship's cloaking technology. Spock theorizes about the requirements needed for this technology seeing it is the first time he has seen (or gained knowledge of) something like this. Yet, on "Enterprise" we see a Romulan ship de-cloak right before Archer's eyes.

4. No Klingon First Contact Disaster:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61096

In TNG's TV episode titled "First Contact", Picard mentions to the ambassador that "first contact" with Klingons led to decades of war, which eventually led Starfleet to do surveillance of new alien cultures or worlds before making "first contact". But in ENT's "Broken Bow" there was no indication that "first contact" went bad in any way. Sure, you can interpret the "first contact" scene to mean that the event in "Broken Bow" caused problems later on, which led to decades of war. But it we didn't see it happen at any point within the series, though. Besides, at the time the TNG episode aired, it was pretty clear that Picard was referring to an incident that was a lot more disastrous and not an event that came about peacefully initially (like we seen in "Broken Bow").

5. No Women Captains yet in the TOS Series:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/60122

In TOS's "Turnabout Intruder", Janice Lester states to Kirk that... "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women". Many folks think that Janice was talking about Kirk leaving her to be a Captain. However, Kirk later said that Lester tortured and punished him over the fact that his world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women. How can Janice punish Kirk if he left her? In other words, what this scene really means is that it is possible for women to become Captains within Starfleet, but there just hasn't been any women Captains yet with that particular point in time within the Original Series (because of the difficulties of the test or whatever).

To read the full argument. Please, check out this post here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3979643&postcount=115

6. No phasers in the 22nd Century:

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61103

In TNG's "A Matter of Time", Worf stated that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century. Yet we see phase pistols that closely resemble phasers in Archer's era. In the episode, the time traveler was asking what was the most "important" examples of progress in the last 200 years to Commander Riker. He was not asking for subtle changes within history. He was asking for significant changes within history. That is why Riker mentioned the Warp coil. So when Worf later volunteered that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century, how can it be that phase pistols were not mentioned seeing they are essentially an earlier version of the phaser? I mean, sure the phaser had more powerful effects. However, you would think that the phase pistol would have been mentioned seeing it is essentially an energy based weapon that was the blue print for the phaser.

7. TNG's Pegasus & TATV:

ENT: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61250
TNG: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/61409

You will note that Riker says in ENT's "These Are The Voyages" that he is ready to talk to Captain Picard now after his little holodeck lesson. So he then walks out of the holodeck with Troi and the camera zooms out to show the Enterprise D in the asteroid field.

However, Riker never went to Picard and revealed the truth about the secret he was carrying. Riker was convinced to reveal the truth to Picard only when the Romulans trapped the Enterprise inside the asteroid (where the starship Pegasus was). Also, lets say Riker was going to go to Picard to reveal the truth to him and later got interrupted by the crisis of being trapped within the asteroid. Riker surely wouldn't be fooling around in the holodeck after he just retrieved sensitive technology and being inside the asteroid. Also, if Riker had done this holodeck program before discovering the "Pegasus", how come he didn't go to Picard like he said he would? So this suggests that the events in TATV are different than the way we know them in the TNG "Pegasus" episode.




Enterprise goes back to 24th Century...

Star Trek Enterprise seems more like a show that has gone back to the future or the 24th Century again instead of actually getting inventive and making us truly believe this was a 22nd Century Trek show.

Enterprise vs Other Trek:

1. View screens (View screens)
2. Phase pistols (Phasers)
3. Phase cannons (Phasers)
4. Photonic Torpedoes (Quantum torpedoes)
5. Subspace Plasma Pocket Injectors (Anti Tachyon Emitters)
6. Polarized Hull Plating (Shields)
7. T'Pol's sex suit (Seven of Nine's sex suit)
8. Transporter (Transporter)
9. Romulan cloaking device (Romulan cloaking device)
10. TNG style Romulan outfits (TNG style Romulan outfits)
11. 24th Century Borg (24th Century Borg)
12. 24th Century Ferengi (24th Century Ferengi)
13. Black leather Section 31 outfits (Black leather Section 31 outfits)
14. Planet or New Humanoid Looking Alien Race of the Week Show (Ditto)
15. Dr Phlox (Neelix)
16. The exterior of NX-01 is literally a duplicate of a 24th Century ship.
17. Universal Translator (Universal Translator)

What Enterprise Should Have Been:

1. The Ship should have been called the Pheonix (And not the Enterprise)
2. No view screens
3. No phase pistols (Non energy type weapons only)
4. No phasers (Regular Missiles)
5. No Photonic Torpedoes (Nuclear Missiles)
6. A Ship that doesn't look like the Enterprise or any other copy of a 24th Century ship.
7. Talented Lead Actor and cast (No Scott Bakula and non charismatic cast)
8. No Aliens on the ship
9. The formation of the Federation
10. Klingon First Contact Disaster
11. No Romulan Cloaking Devices
12. Early events leading up to the Romulan Earth War.
13. No Transporters (or at least no Transporters that can transport living matter)
14. Vulcans should have never been on Earth yet.
15. Vulcans should have been more logical and less emotional.
16. Alien encounters should have been either shocking or scary about 90% of the time.
17. Actual Character Development.
18. No Universal Translators and only a small fraction of the alien races they run up against they could actually communicate with at all.

In other words, it ain't a normal prequel if everything stays the same with the previous shows.

Also, just looking at "Star Trek: Enterprise", I am not given the impression visually that it is any different than the 24th or 23rd Centuries.

So that is why I believe "Star Trek: Enterprise" to be an alternate time line.

In fact, if your interested, you can check out my reasons for "Enterprise" being an alternate time line by checking out my other post here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997390&postcount=71

Thank you for reading.


Side Note:

Oh, and I am not interested in getting into a great taste / less filling type debate over this either. If you feel I have made an error and can convince me of it, please by all means tell me intelligently and with kindness and respect. Also, if you don't explain yourself properly, or misunderstand me (constantly), or have no interest in backing up your debate with searchable sources, please don't reply or know that I might put my "shields up and ignore all hails" function on you.

Frankly that is the mouth full that says it all.

That line is open to interpretation. And only exists as a plot device to serve a single scene. Of course the idea that the ship wouldn't have veiwscreens in the 22nd Century is pretty absurd given the level of visual communication technology they had in the 1960s and we have today. A more logical interpretation is that the Romualans blocked visual communication or their methods were incompatable with Earths. The key part of Spocks statement is "by our standards". Which can easily be taken to infer that the Enterprise's current weapons are "atomic" based. Since the NX-01's weapons are less powerful, they qualifiy as primitive.

Everything is open to interpretation to the average Trek fan but it doesn't mean that the line isn't exactly what it says. Interpretation is usually an evasive maneuver in fandom. When I say that ENT is a series that has to be an AU it's maneuvering in order to fit the officialism. My interpretation doesn't mean that it is just so just an interpretation with a meaning that is anything but what the actual meaning of the words is. What isn't interpretation is the exact meaning and grammar the words are offered in.

2. No Enterprise NX-01 mentioned:

That also leaves out the Ringship Enterprise. Which was the first Earth space vessel to use the name. (See TMP)

You're right but we never see that ship again and by exclusion it was never Starfleet never categorized as Star Fleet.

In Relics Scott asks to see his ship. Why would the computer include a ship that was decommisioned before he was born?

Remember what I said on this issue. The computer makes a set of assumptions that diverge away from it's normal literal self. We can ask questions all day about what this means but it's not consistent at all with the computers specific past nature.

Why the 24th Century and not the 23rd? All three Centuries use similar technology. Why not complain that the 24th Century aren't more advanced than TOS even though its been 100 years.

The human industrial age and modern age have lasted 200 years. They are the most significant 200 years in all of recorded history in terms of technology out of 6,000.

Star Trek with the creation of First Contact and ENT that the following technologies were devised all in the span of 120 years:

Fusion, Impulse, Reliable Antimatter Containment, Productive Antimatter Production, Shield Technology, Transporter Technology, Particle Beam Technology, Warp Field Propulsion,

Even more suspect is all that technology still fits in the same package size as their cousins in the 23rd and 24th century as though the tech was discovered and perfected in it's final state at the beginning. Not to mention that they all represent variable impossibilities from just 70 years previous only Fusion and particle beams can be taken as a mere matter of time. They require a royal upheaval in science to even break ground on let alone to sprout from the ground full formed and developed.

No. They are similar but not literal dupilcates. NX-01 boasts several TOS features that the Akira lacks.

They are too similar and the Producer of Trek admits the cannibalism of the Akira so it's not debatable. How you fit it in is debatable but he doesn't have to make excuses for the oddity.

17. Universal Translator (Universal Translator)
Worked very differently in ENT than in any of the other shows. Hoshi actually had to work at tranlsations. Originallity Points to ENT, none to TNG.

I do give point on that front but they didn't do it nearly enough. I like that it didn't change the voice to all who heard it which is ridiculous of Star Trek itself.