I think The Family of Blood provides the best example of how badass the Doctor can be. He'll try to avoid confrontations if he can, not because he can't fight but because he doesn't want to. But if you provoke him enough he'll make you regret it.
Do you think Matt Smith can portray the Doctor's dark side?
- Thread starter Joe Washington
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By contrast, Smith's "there's one thing you don't ever, ever put in a trap..." sounds like rather callow bravado.
I don't think we can really judge that until we see what context it occurs in.
I don't really consider a "dark side" to just be about violence, though. There's also darkness of mood and of character. That's where Tennant was strong. His emotional breakdown in End of Time while discussing regeneration in the pub with Wilf, and his later ranting when he knew it was inevitable -- that's the dark side stuff I'm talking about. Anyone can make threats or punch someone -- it takes skill to bring up emotional darkness, which is what both Eccleston and Tennant excelled at, and which I think Smith will do well at, as well.
Alex
I generally agree with your take on things, The. I do here, it's just for me, because I was expecting dark from 9, and brooding and something black and barely contained that somehow when 10 turned it seemed somehow darker. I think because it was kind of out of character for his Doctor, or against type, in a way. The dark side of 10, coming out of that skinny body and clownish face somehow had more shock value. It made me think, "so really you're that kind of man."
On the whole though, what you said.
But was Nine really that dark and dangerous?
Yeah he was in the Dalek's face spitting and snarling...after he realised it was impotent of course. His first reaction upon seeing it was to run for his life, to batter on the door and beg to get out. Now to be honest that isn't a bad reaction (I imagine I'd do something similar) but it's quite cowardly, but then in Parting of the Ways this is the character who says "Coward, every time." He looks tough, but all the evidence suggests he isn't really, he's damaged, still quite brave but you almost feel like he has to fight his fear to tackle the bad guys.
Frankly that makes him more interesting that the golden boy 10 in my opinion, but I don't doubt that 10 was the more dangerous of the two. Drowning the Racnoss, his punishment to the family of blood. His little people comment in Waters of Mars, and the fact that you can see his mind working near the end of TEOT2, I don't think he was that far away from letting Wilf die to be honest.
Yeah he was in the Dalek's face spitting and snarling...after he realised it was impotent of course. His first reaction upon seeing it was to run for his life, to batter on the door and beg to get out. Now to be honest that isn't a bad reaction (I imagine I'd do something similar) but it's quite cowardly, but then in Parting of the Ways this is the character who says "Coward, every time." He looks tough, but all the evidence suggests he isn't really, he's damaged, still quite brave but you almost feel like he has to fight his fear to tackle the bad guys.
Frankly that makes him more interesting that the golden boy 10 in my opinion, but I don't doubt that 10 was the more dangerous of the two. Drowning the Racnoss, his punishment to the family of blood. His little people comment in Waters of Mars, and the fact that you can see his mind working near the end of TEOT2, I don't think he was that far away from letting Wilf die to be honest.
I've yet to see the new series Doctors pull a "Curse of Fenric" type thing-where the Doctor's relationship with his companion was pretty much put to the near-breaking point, although that was arguably part of the plan. Still, it's pretty much implied that the only reason he let Ace tag along was to use her for the Fenric challenge.
The "New Adventures" novels took the Doctor's darkness even further, having him be even more manipulative and detached, such as one inciddent where he sort of killed Ace's boyfriend at the time (Which caused her to leave for a while). In the novel Head Games, the bubbly Mel is actually totally disgusted at what the Seventh Doctor has become.
The "New Adventures" novels took the Doctor's darkness even further, having him be even more manipulative and detached, such as one inciddent where he sort of killed Ace's boyfriend at the time (Which caused her to leave for a while). In the novel Head Games, the bubbly Mel is actually totally disgusted at what the Seventh Doctor has become.
I hear all the arguments, and I see the point of view about Tennant's dark-side, as how WillsBabe explains it. But, I think it's just David Tennant's performance for me. I just didn't believe it. As some have mentioned, Family of Blood is the closest I can see his Doctor being a threat of some kind. And only then that it reminded me wholly of the 7th Doctor. Nothing wrong with that, as Eccleston gets his gruff and darkness from Docs 1 & 6. Still, Tennant's darkness never felt valid for me. Again, shouty child. Doesn't mean I don't like his Doctor. But, everytime he tried to act "tough" I cringed. But, hey, that's just me.
Starkers, your points are fair and I did consider the evidence beforehand. I think, for me, there's this notion from Season One that he's the man that destroyed Gallifrey. He wiped out his own race, almost the Daleks, and when the clone/metacrisis Doctor wiped out the Daleks, he was most definitely supposed to represent the 9th incarnation. The damaged one. The one who had committed wholesale genocide at least twice. I think that notion of Nine is what drives home the "toughness" of his Doctor, the threat of the Oncoming Storm.
But hey, again, just my own musings...
Starkers, your points are fair and I did consider the evidence beforehand. I think, for me, there's this notion from Season One that he's the man that destroyed Gallifrey. He wiped out his own race, almost the Daleks, and when the clone/metacrisis Doctor wiped out the Daleks, he was most definitely supposed to represent the 9th incarnation. The damaged one. The one who had committed wholesale genocide at least twice. I think that notion of Nine is what drives home the "toughness" of his Doctor, the threat of the Oncoming Storm.
But hey, again, just my own musings...
Actually, it's quite sane. Every other time the Tenth Doctor faced the Daleks in person, he knew in advance what he'd find and was able to manipulate them into not immediately shooting him. He never found himself unexpectedly alone in a room with a murderous Dalek he had no way to manipulate prior to encountering.
I think he was using the word "coward" as a euphemism for "moral" rather than "Machiavellian." Which, granted, is not always true of him, either, but I don't think he literally meant he was a coward.
Oh, I completely disagree. The Doctor was throwing a temper tantrum because he'd thought he had managed to avoid his death, and then realized it was coming anyway. But as angry as he was at how unfair it was that he'd still be called upon to give his "life," I don't think he ever really had any intention of allowing Wilfred to die.
Given that "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End" was essentially RTD bringing together all his toys and then saying goodbye to his era of the show (albeit in advance of the last five specials), I always thought it was a crying shame that they couldn't have had Christopher Eccleston come back to play the Metacrisis!Doctor.
Amongst other things, I think it would have made the goodbye scene with Rose work a lot better; as it stands, it doesn't quite register as the Doctor both getting and not getting Rose, because 10.2 is just too much like Ten. But if it were almost literally the Tenth Doctor losing Rose to the Ninth Doctor, I think that would have simultaneously given Nine/Rose a happy ending and yet preserved the sense of loss and isolation for the Tenth Doctor.
And, of course, it would be a chance for RTD to truly say goodbye to all of his characters.
I totally agree with you here, The. Well said.
Matt Smith totally blew me away with his performance. When he said to the aliens at the end "Basically, run", the threat could be seen in his (gorgeous
) eyes, if that makes any sense. The same goes with Eccleston - whatever emotion he was acting was reflected in his eyes. I never saw that with Tennant. I thought he was brilliant with the lighter comedic stuff, but I never could believe he was someone to run from.
I hear all the arguments, and I see the point of view about Tennant's dark-side, as how WillsBabe explains it. But, I think it's just David Tennant's performance for me. I just didn't believe it. As some have mentioned, Family of Blood is the closest I can see his Doctor being a threat of some kind. And only then that it reminded me wholly of the 7th Doctor. Nothing wrong with that, as Eccleston gets his gruff and darkness from Docs 1 & 6. Still, Tennant's darkness never felt valid for me. Again, shouty child. Doesn't mean I don't like his Doctor. But, everytime he tried to act "tough" I cringed. But, hey, that's just me.
Starkers, your points are fair and I did consider the evidence beforehand. I think, for me, there's this notion from Season One that he's the man that destroyed Gallifrey. He wiped out his own race, almost the Daleks, and when the clone/metacrisis Doctor wiped out the Daleks, he was most definitely supposed to represent the 9th incarnation. The damaged one. The one who had committed wholesale genocide at least twice. I think that notion of Nine is what drives home the "toughness" of his Doctor, the threat of the Oncoming Storm.
But hey, again, just my own musings...
It does kinda depend if it was 8 or 9 who destroyed Gallifray however and I'm still not sure. For me it always made more sense that 8 did most of the Time War fighting, and that guilt fused with his regeneration to give us the damaged 9. Again its just my musings, but for me 9 is carrying the weight of 8's guilt (although they are the same guy obviously) until he takes the opposite decision to 8 by not destroying the Daleks this time (and Sci, I agree it is moral rather than coward, but coward is the word he uses) as such when he regenerates again it is more of a rebirth and 10 doesn't seem to carry as much of the guilt. Of course ironically this makes 10 far more blase than 9 about genocide.
I reckon he could, he did it well, but subtely, in 11th Hour last week. When he was adressing the aliens on the roof and when he was talking to Prisoner Zero.
I have a feeling that unlike Tennants obvious dark acting, Matts will be very subdues and subtle, but the glare in teh eyes have it. That sells the scene. That was something Tennant wasnt all that good at, maybe being wide eyed like Tom Baker here and there, though.
Yeah, i can see that.
Eccleston has the great ability to act and entire scene with no dialogue, and we still know what hes saying, much like Steve McQueen had.
Tennant not so much, but was good at some aspects.
With Smith, i was totally in awe of his facial performance. The glare that emulates from under those hooded eyes was so cool, calm and collected yet so full of dark passion for what cause he was fighting for.
I have a feeling that unlike Tennants obvious dark acting, Matts will be very subdues and subtle, but the glare in teh eyes have it. That sells the scene. That was something Tennant wasnt all that good at, maybe being wide eyed like Tom Baker here and there, though.
I totally agree with you here, The. Well said.
Matt Smith totally blew me away with his performance. When he said to the aliens at the end "Basically, run", the threat could be seen in his (gorgeous
Yeah, i can see that.
Eccleston has the great ability to act and entire scene with no dialogue, and we still know what hes saying, much like Steve McQueen had.
Tennant not so much, but was good at some aspects.
With Smith, i was totally in awe of his facial performance. The glare that emulates from under those hooded eyes was so cool, calm and collected yet so full of dark passion for what cause he was fighting for.
Which is exactly how I feel about Tennant's "angry" side.
Absolutely, completely agree 100%. From everything I got out of that episode, that's exactly what I felt RTD was trying to accomplish with that one. Tennant even acted like Eccleston's Doctor, with all the wild grinning and stuff. It would have made Rose's end much more poignant.
I think his "gruff and darkness" comes more from competent writing and acting, two things that Docs 1 & 6 never benefited from.
Well, yeah Kelso. That's stunningly obvious. I was speaking with an "in-universe" sense. Whether the actor and writer thought to emulate those Doctors, or whether it's a coincedence of writing and characterization, there is nonetheless a historical precedence for the character of The Doctor to be gruff and dark. And it's from those two particular incarnations you can make the comparison.
Or, did you have a different point?
I think Matt portrayed that "darkness" of the Doctor perfectly fine in his speech to the Atraxi on top of the hospital roof.
well, i think he did a damn good job tonight.
While I agree that it's generally silly to say that any particular Doctor got his whatever from some prior Doctor, I would point out that that Tom Baker's portrayal of the Fourth Doctor was such a strong departure from the prior Doctors, and so thoroughly influential, that every subsequent actor to approach the role has adopted some of Baker's manic energy, and Eccleston is no exception.
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