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Janeway's Convient Morals

I'm not reluctant to post because of how I feel about specific aspects of Voyager but it wouldn't at all surprise me to show up one day and find I have a warning or a threat of one, not because I broke the rules, but because those supposedly enforcing them don't happen to agree with what I've said and have taken special exception to the way I've said it. I've gotten more PM's about that very subject than any other in my time at this site.

But I mean what's the alternative? Give this section to someone who hates Voyager? As far as I've noted this particular area is on par with the rest of the board as far as this goes. There are areas, however, where the bias is positively rampant. It's in those areas where I pretty much refuse to post (whether I'm on the side of the angels or not.)


-Withers-​
 
It also bothered me that Janeway was several years younger than Mulgrew. It seemed to me to have been done to stroke Mulgrew's ego ("you're still young and beautiful"). I have no evidence to support that, it just seemed that way to me. I have recently figured out that Johnathen Frakes was about 5 years older than Riker, and since Chakotay and Riker were about the same age, and Robert Beltran and John Frakes are about the same age, .... It still bothers me, because on the one hand it seems like Janeway actually got younger as the show went on, and also because they made her young enough that her first command becomes implausible.
See, Janeway was in High School in 2354 (Future's End Part 1). She might have been a senior, or a freshman, but that pretty well nails her birthdate at somewhere from 2336 to 2340. I could go on and narrow it further, but:
Janeway completed her first Starship Command assignment in 2365. Riker was offered his first Starship Command in 2364, and Riker was on a meteoric rise to command and was at least 1 year older than Janeway.
I'm tempted to blame that kind of thing on the fact that the series bible was written with an actress 13 years older in the role of Janeway, but that little fact wasn't dropped on us until Season Four (Revulsion), so it isn't like they didn't have time to fix it.

There isn't a canon confirmation of her age in the series (unless you mean her comment in Future's End about her having quit tennis 19 years ago - she does also mention that she was on the tennis team in high school, but that doesn't necessarily follow that nineteen years ago is when she finished high school). Therefore it isn't canon that Janeway is younger than Mulgrew - the novels put her year of birth at 2335, making her 3 years younger than Kate if you choose to go by that, and the Elite Force Voyager game puts it as 2332, which makes her the exact same age as Kate.

Unfortunately, as none of these sources, or canon, agree with each other, I guess it's up to each individual fan to cherry-pick the one they like best.
 
I'm not reluctant to post because of how I feel about specific aspects of Voyager but it wouldn't at all surprise me to show up one day and find I have a warning or a threat of one, not because I broke the rules, but because those supposedly enforcing them don't happen to agree with what I've said and have taken special exception to the way I've said it. I've gotten more PM's about that very subject than any other in my time at this site.

Your comments are always cogent and very logical, so much so that I was quite surprised when you mentioned elsewhere that you are only 24. But yes, I agree that you may earn a warning for flagrant disregard of the party line. I've also had a number of PMs from people that agree with me but are loath to post to the Voyager portion of this site, and this thread in particular, for the same concerns you have.
 
The party line? I'm not aware of a party line.

I have no problem with people who take issue with Janeway for having been written inconsistently or for having made a difficult decision that they disagree with. It is her lack of perfection that appeals to me, to be honest. She is flawed, and that makes her more real to me. My problem is the assumptions and prejudices that some people have about her.

I snooped a bit and find that some of you have only been on the BBS for a year or two. It's possible that you are not really aware of the types of posts that have been placed on this board over the years. I've been AuntKate here since 2002, but before the great "migration" to this board that year, I had another screen name (for the life of me, I can't remember what it was). I probably started lurking here in 1999 or 2000. You'll just have to trust me when I say that the prejudice was here in spades--especially from the Niners who seemed to think that Voyager was a slap in the face to their favorite series.

I'm not asking everyone to love Janeway or even like her. I'm just asking for the same sort of respect that other captains and characters receive. Don't judge her based on one or two episodes or on word-of-mouth comments made by others. Watch the whole series with an open mind and then decide what you think of her.

I have my opinions of ENT and Archer, but I haven't seen the entire series and wouldn't dream of going to the ENT forum and casting aspersions based on a partial understanding of his character. Same with Sisko; I missed the last half of the series because the independent station that carried DS9 went network and stopped showing it at a reliable time and day of the week. Some people, who do not have a comprehensive understanding of the series, love to come here and say that Janeway makes one decision one episode and changes it the next, that she refuses to listen to her subordinates, that she is immoral. When asked for specifics, they seem to disappear. My assumption is that they can't back up their claims.

I'm a captain fan. I love Kirk, Picard, and Janeway. They are my favorites because I know how hard it is to be a leader and to sit in the center seat and make the tough decision. I like that some of Janeway's decisions are basically "lose-lose," as in Tuvix. I admire her for following through with her choice, and I have no doubt whatsoever that she continues to agonize over what she's done for the rest of her life.

That's why some of us seem to overreact to some comment that might otherwise seem innocent. There is along history here. A title like "Janeway's Tough Moral Decisions" would be much less troublesome than the more judgmental "convenient" morals. I don't think she found that decision easy, in any way, shape, or form.


:)
 
You'll just have to trust me when I say that the prejudice was here in spades--especially from the Niners who seemed to think that Voyager was a slap in the face to their favorite series.

Heck, I can remember lurking here back when the "Janeway should be raped." thread was popular. Scary times. :(

Yes, we want the forum to be a place where fans of the show are comfortable posting about it. On the other hand, we don't want thread conversations to go like this:

Poster 1: I love Janeway!
Poster 2: Me too!
Poster 3: OMG, I do too!!!!
<crickets>

To prevent that we need to have folks with negative opinions be able to express them here too. It's like a pendulum - our goal is to keep it swinging in the middle without widely swinging to either blind adulation or mindless trolling. Sure, those few on the fringes of either side are going to feel oppressed but hopefully the majority in the middle will find it an interesting place to post. That's up to you guys.
 
Heck, I can remember lurking here back when the "Janeway should be raped." thread was popular. Scary times. :(

If someone really did say that, first--I would wonder about his sanity for thinking that a fictional character could be raped without the writers writing it in a story, second--who cares? They would be talking about a fictional character.

This thread was simply started in order to investigate the ethics of Captain Janeway's character as written.
 
There isn't a canon confirmation of her age in the series (unless you mean her comment in Future's End about her having quit tennis 19 years ago - she does also mention that she was on the tennis team in high school, but that doesn't necessarily follow that nineteen years ago is when she finished high school). Therefore it isn't canon that Janeway is younger than Mulgrew - the novels put her year of birth at 2335, making her 3 years younger than Kate if you choose to go by that, and the Elite Force Voyager game puts it as 2332, which makes her the exact same age as Kate.

Unfortunately, as none of these sources, or canon, agree with each other, I guess it's up to each individual fan to cherry-pick the one they like best.
Okay, I had been trusting the Encyclopedia more than I should have: reviewing the transcript of the episode shows that Janeway doesn't actually say that she hasn't played tennis since high school, just that she did play in high school and that she hasn't played in 19 years.
So that doesn't give us anything but a minimum: Janeway played tennis at some point in high school, and that was at least 19 years before, so if she was only playing tennis her freshman year she was born around 2340. She might be older than that, but can't be younger.

I can't find the reference to her having been set up on a blind date with Riker (a date she had to cancel, IIRC, so they never met), but I'm pretty sure that was on-screen and not from a book. If so, it establishes some overlap in their times at the Academy, and since Riker graduated in 2357 that narrows the field a bit more: if she was a freshman in Riker's senior year, she was probably born in 2338 (which would make her 18 in 2356 at the start of her freshman year). At the other end of the spectrum, if she was a senior when he was a freshman she was born around 2332 (21 in 2353). Most likely somewhere in between. So that gives her a canon age within six years.

Just a minor quibble here: if Janeway was born in 2332, she was 39 in the first season. Kate Mulgrew was 40 that year. So even Elite Force Voyager makes Janeway younger than Mulgrew, and she pretty much has to be to fit canon comments. But not as much as I thought.

I also suspect Kate Mulgrew might have been ... "cooking" her bio a bit. It happens a lot: hollywood has a distinct age bias, even moreso when it comes to women. I have a hard time believing she did Mrs Colombo when she was 24. Perhaps that is mostly because I always pictured Colombo's wife as being approximately his own age, and Peter Falk is 28 years older than Kate Mulgrew's bio makes her. But it matches my brothers opinion, and he was a fan of that show (although it has been decades since he saw it). He has said, "Perhaps she was 24 and playing a 35 year old, and that's why I think she's older, but I think she's actually about 5 years older than her bio says."

Anyway, thanks for setting me to gathering evidence, as it pointed out that (as I said) I had been relying on the Encyclopedia too much, and it obviously isn't as exact as I thought it was.
 
Sure Janeway could win the Miss Universe Crown on her looks alone, but she'd never risk that when it's so easy to poison and threaten her opponents families, if the greater good was at stake and she could convince herself that the other "girls" were plain evil.

Some times Kathryn is a Stafleet officer and sometimes she's a glorious bastard, and I enjoy both interpretations but lets not joke to think that if not for the omega 13 powered reset button in the writers room Annoraxing all of Janeway's most interesting decisions, her character has been irrevocably stained by some of her more insidious actions over the years.
 
The date with Riker was in a book (?Mosaic"?), not on screen. The two characters did meet on screen during "Deathwish", but there was no suggestion in that encounter that they knew each other previously, just that he knew OF her.

I'm not quite sure why the interest in the difference between the age of the character and the age of the actress. Barbara Streisand was in her late 30's when she portrayed Yentl in her late teens/early twenties. Angela Lansbury was only 3-4 years older than the actor that played her son in the first "Manchurian Candidate." In Golden Girls, Estelle Getty was a year younger than Bea Arthur, the woman who was supposedly her daughter.

I liked the idea that Janeway was in her mid - late 30's when she was thrown into the hind end of space. Sure, she had commanded at least 2 other ships before Voyager, but it wasn't like she had the experience of Picard, someone who'd been sitting in the center seat of the Enterprise itself for nearly a decade by the time Voyager was taken by the Caretaker.

2 different Captains at two different points in their career. That alone made it more interesting to me, and is another reason I was glad Bujold turned the role down.

As for "Mrs Columbo", Mulgrew's youth was one of the reason's my family never got into the show. It just didn't sit right. We weren't the only one's who thought so, and IIRC that was why the network ultimately changed the name from "Mrs Columbo", to "Kate loves a Mystery".
 
Heck, I can remember lurking here back when the "Janeway should be raped." thread was popular. Scary times. :(

If someone really did say that, first--I would wonder about his sanity for thinking that a fictional character could be raped without the writers writing it in a story, second--who cares? They would be talking about a fictional character.

This thread was simply started in order to investigate the ethics of Captain Janeway's character as written.
Sanity + Star Trek fan = Oxymoron. :lol:

Seriously, those posts did exist at one time and not just by one poster. It was a topic some wished the show had expored at one point. Why and for what reason, I don't wanna know but I don't understand why anyone that didn't expect Picard & Sisko too be raped, why Janeway? JUst because she's a women is an insulting concept which I can understand why so many woman who are fans of even a fictional character would be highly insulted by it.

I understand the complains in general about how ther forum is run but lets be serious for a moment and have some empathy.
 
Heck, I can remember lurking here back when the "Janeway should be raped." thread was popular. Scary times. :(

If someone really did say that, first--I would wonder about his sanity for thinking that a fictional character could be raped without the writers writing it in a story, second--who cares? They would be talking about a fictional character.

This thread was simply started in order to investigate the ethics of Captain Janeway's character as written.
Sanity + Star Trek fan = Oxymoron. :lol:

I don't understand why anyone that didn't expect Picard & Sisko too be raped, why Janeway?

Are you suggesting that Picard and Sisko are cuter than Janeway?:) (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

I don't know what the poster might have had in mind by suggesting a Janeway rape--maybe it would be to explore how the momentary loss of power affected her view of herself as captain (would she be able to, in her mind, regain authority--how would she handle sympathy from the crew--would she, from then on, be more apt to abuse her authority--etc). But no, they could not do this with Picard or Sisko--the episode would crumble into an unintentional comedy. The writers would have to find another way to crack their veneer of power.
 
If someone really did say that, first--I would wonder about his sanity for thinking that a fictional character could be raped without the writers writing it in a story, second--who cares? They would be talking about a fictional character.

This thread was simply started in order to investigate the ethics of Captain Janeway's character as written.
Sanity + Star Trek fan = Oxymoron. :lol:

I don't understand why anyone that didn't expect Picard & Sisko too be raped, why Janeway?

Are you suggesting that Picard and Sisko are cuter than Janeway?:) (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

I don't know what the poster might have had in mind by suggesting a Janeway rape--maybe it would be to explore how the momentary loss of power affected her view of herself as captain (would she be able to, in her mind, regain authority--how would she handle sympathy from the crew--would she, from then on, be more apt to abuse her authority--etc). But no, they could not do this with Picard or Sisko--the episode would crumble into an unintentional comedy. The writers would have to find another way to crack their veneer of power.
As I said, empathy.
The writers wouldn't turn away their growing female audience by having Janeway endure what they weren't willing to inflict on their male lead roles. I think Picard's "rape" by the Borg is enough.
 
Chakotay was raped in a way by Seska. Remember, she took his DNA without permission to impregnate herself. It always bothered me that the writers didn't dig a bit deeper into that...

That being said, exodus was and still is correct.

I would also like to say, regarding what the OP was talking about, that I think her moral code wasn't much different than the others. However, because she was alone and far from Starfleet where there were other easy comparisons of dubiousness that far outweighed her own, it becomes increasingly easy to point fingers at what she 'should have done' versus what she did.
 
I think Sisko has been "branded" with this sort of thread (unfairly) as well. Whereas here we have a clear bias in the title of the thread "Janeway's Convenient Morals" there's a thread that is less than a month old entitled "Sisko's Racial Rant in Badda Bing." Such forgone conclusions about motives and morals exist, obviously, but it's a mistake to interpret those thoughts and opinions as anything more than an extremely vocal minority. The same thing happens in the XI forums; visiting there one might get the impression that everybody hated JJ Abrams film and that it had no redeeming qualities outside of amazing visuals. That isn't because that's the truth- it's because a very small group of highly "motivated" posters routinely posit their opinions in a very emphatic fashion.

Something to keep in mind.


-Withers-​
 
I think Sisko has been "branded" with this sort of thread (unfairly) as well. Whereas here we have a clear bias in the title of the thread "Janeway's Convenient Morals" there's a thread that is less than a month old entitled "Sisko's Racial Rant in Badda Bing." Such forgone conclusions about motives and morals exist, obviously, but it's a mistake to interpret those thoughts and opinions as anything more than an extremely vocal minority. The same thing happens in the XI forums; visiting there one might get the impression that everybody hated JJ Abrams film and that it had no redeeming qualities outside of amazing visuals. That isn't because that's the truth- it's because a very small group of highly "motivated" posters routinely posit their opinions in a very emphatic fashion.

Something to keep in mind.



-Withers-​
Something that many that have been here for years are well aware of.

However, you also have to have the sense to know that what's said on the board doesn't speak for all of those that watch Trek.(no board does) There are tons of Trek fans or viewers that have no interest in message boards or interacting with "die hard" fans, who's opinions aren't taken into consideration. It's those folks that helped keep Voy. alive & made J.J.'s Trek film a success.
 
Sanity + Star Trek fan = Oxymoron. :lol:

I don't understand why anyone that didn't expect Picard & Sisko too be raped, why Janeway?

Are you suggesting that Picard and Sisko are cuter than Janeway?:) (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

I don't know what the poster might have had in mind by suggesting a Janeway rape--maybe it would be to explore how the momentary loss of power affected her view of herself as captain (would she be able to, in her mind, regain authority--how would she handle sympathy from the crew--would she, from then on, be more apt to abuse her authority--etc). But no, they could not do this with Picard or Sisko--the episode would crumble into an unintentional comedy. The writers would have to find another way to crack their veneer of power.
As I said, empathy.

Empathy is the reason television and movies keep doing this kind of story. I hate that type of pathos grabbing script, but we were discussing why that fabled poster might have suggested such a plot.

exodus said:
The writers wouldn't turn away their growing female audience....

Yes, this type of story certainly does seem to turn off the female audience:

"In the criminal justice system, sexually-based offenses are considered especially heinous."
- Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
 
Oh the rape threads.

They were silly.

The entire crew was raped nearly to the point of impregnation in Caretaker, meanwhile poor Kim and B'Elanna were almost raped to death in the same episode. Surely that's enough rape for even the vilest constitutions straight off the starting blocks?

Borg assimilation is pseudo-rape and obviously metaphorically sexual from a OC viewpoint, ergo Picard has been more raped better than most any other figure (in fiction) before him, and coming to terms to this violation in the episode family was magnificent as the naked guts of his angst just flooded the mudwestling pique he was sorting with his brother.
 
That is SVU theme but the prupose of the show is detectives bringing such people to justice not just having a rape scene just for the sake of it.


Trek is a completely and utterly in a different catagory and type of show than L&O.
It's like comparing Oranges to Bricks.
 
...here we have a clear bias in the title of the thread "Janeway's Convenient Morals"....

Well, yes, Withers, I could have entitled this thread "Janeway's Morals are Beyond Question, so Let's Not Discuss Them" but then again, this is a discussion board.
 
I liked the idea that Janeway was in her mid - late 30's when she was thrown into the hind end of space. Sure, she had commanded at least 2 other ships before Voyager, but it wasn't like she had the experience of Picard, someone who'd been sitting in the center seat of the Enterprise itself for nearly a decade by the time Voyager was taken by the Caretaker.
I liked the idea that Janeway was a young, inexperienced Captain too.
Then, in season four's Revulsion, they told us that she finished her first command five years before getting Voyager (2365). (More precisely, that she first met Tuvok then, and has known him for "nine years", which offers a bit of wiggle room: perhaps it was more like 8 3/4, perhaps it was 2366.)
Still, that mission could have been for less than a year, and six years isn't a lot of experience for a Captain.

The rub is that, as I said, Riker was shown to be someone on a meteroic rise to command. Riker was first offered a command in 2364, so to have Janeway not be older than Riker seems .... insulting, somehow. It suggests that she was on a similar meteroic rise.
Jean-Luc Picard was 28 the first time he commanded a starship. William Riker was 29 when he was offered his first command. Data described either his own career or a typical one (possibly both)to Lore as "four years at the Academy, another three as ensign, ten or twelve on varied space duty in the lieutenant grades...". This strongly suggests that only exceptional officers rise to Lieutenant Commander before reaching 34 years old.
I would not be surprised to learn that Janeway commanded a ship when she was 35, but am bothered by the idea that she did it when she was 30: she never seemed like that kind of meteoric riser to me. And that puts her in her early 40s at the start of Voyager, because she finished her first command in 2365 (ish).

I forgive the actor being the "wrong" age a lot. Estelle Getty on Golden Girls isn't a great example because she was actually made up to look older than she was, but lots of actors play characters who are older than they are, and most of the actors playing high school kids on tv are in their 20s. (On That 70s Show, the male kids were all 20 in the first season except Fez who was 18 and Hyde who was 22. Donna was 18 and Jackie was 15, yet they were all playing 16 year olds. Foreman's sister who was away at college is played by an actress 8 years older than him.)
Sally Field did a movie where Tom Hanks was her romantic interest. In their next movie together, she was his mother. :) (She is, actually, 10 years older than him.)
Heck, Picard was quite a bit older than Patrick Stewart. ;)

As I said, for some reason it stuck me that Janeway was being made younger in an effort to stroke Mulgrew's ego. That's why it bothered me.
Maybe I'm just projecting Shatner onto her. ;)
 
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