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Why is ST09's altered timeline a problem?

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Why does there have to be a "message"?

There doesn't. And, like you said and I said before that, XI didn't have a specific theme. The difference is that most Trek movies did (whether or not that helped is debatable as we were just talking about Nemesis in that case...)

In comparison to XI, Nemesis was a well-written, well-structured movie. Of course, Nemesis is a plot-hole ridden pile of shit.

Nemesis was, in no way, a better movie. It had a different approach (more in keeping with what we saw from the TNG era movies) but that's about it. The writing and execution were terrible and if nothing else, if one just muted both films and watched them, it would be very difficult for me to believe anybody could be more visually pleased watching Nemesis than XI... but then there are people who think TOS looks futuristic and realistic so... maybe I'm crazy.

I've never seen a movie this bad, ever.

All that says to me is that you've only, by virtue of having actually lived through the plot of Blast From the Past, seen a handful of movies. If XI was honestly the worst movie you have ever seen... well, yeah, that's it. You just can't possibly have seen that many movies. I said it before somewhere but I have accidentally seen worse movies than XI.

:rolleyes: Weren't you saying the same exact thing before the film even came out?

When the criticism are so...inflammatory, that's honestly how it comes off, at least to me. "I hate this movie!!!... now let me watch it and find out why."



-Withers-​
 
All this discussion has got me wanting to see XI again. I saw it twice in the theater, and not since.

I can accept how Kirk needed to be in the Big Chair by movie's end - but nor does this excuse the relatively Star Wars way in which he got there. Even just a line or two of dialog further explaining it would have helped a lot.

My other main gripe from XI was not that Vulcan was destroyed - this was a bold move, and it is an alternate universe after all - but I don't recall much impact. The film didn't get me to feel anything about it, and, I hate to say this - I don't think Nimoy gave us much either. I realize Spock is in a very sagely point in his life by then, but I think a real opportunity was missed. To see him crack a little, let us feel the emotion through him -
 
this was a bold move, and it is an alternate universe after all - but I don't recall much impact. The film didn't get me to feel anything about it, and, I hate to say this - I don't think Nimoy gave us much either. I realize Spock is in a very sagely point in his life by then, but I think a real opportunity was missed. To see him crack a little, let us feel the emotion through him -

OhEmGeeOhEmGeeOhEmGee! Can we please be BFF's now? This.

Somehow, in the first 10 minutes, they managed to produce tears in my eyes over the death of a character I'd never met and the destruction of a ship I'd never seen. It was a highly emotional and dramatic moment from Cameron (the chick from House)! It was...gold, pure gold. I could watch that scene a billion times over and never get sick of it.

Flashforward to the destruction of Vulcan. Not a wet eye in the house. Basically the whole species gets annihilated along with the destruction of the entire planet, we get to watch Nimoy watching it happen, and yet still is strikes me as neither all that sad nor "game changing" based on the reaction we get. Saying you're emotionally compromised and being emotionally compromised are two different things. Since Nimoy tells him at the end of the movie "abandon logic and follow your heart" it seems like he should have been a little more...bothered by what happened than he was and as an actor he could have done it had they written the scene with the thought of relevance involved. Instead the destruction of Vulcan was written and subsequently portrayed like 3 minutes of C-Span.


God... I didn't even realize how much that bothered me until just right then.



-Withers-​
 
He's a Vulcan. ( Or at least half of one. )

SPOCK PRIME: "Jim, I just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised. What you must do is get me to show it."
 
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Yes-yes. I think everybody is probably clear on Mr. Spock being a Vulcan- not just at this forum but who has access to pop culture in some capacity.

Just saying that isn't enough though. But fine, whatever, chalk it up to the "he's half Vulcan and therefore showing him break down wouldn't be appropriate" bit. Fine. It wasn't just his lack of a reaction that made the destruction of Vulcan a passionless affair. The way it was portrayed, physically, and the way everybody reacted to it as though any mention of what just happened would make it worse or something... added to the very casual way Chekov figures out what's going on and is like "Yeah, blackhole at the center of Vulcan = / Bummer Yo. They've got, hmm, minutes before they'll all be dead." They managed to make the sinking of the Kelvin epic and important while the destruction of Vulcan felt (to me anyway) less important than a criminal activities report. It wasn't just Nimoy (that was just a missed opportunity) it was the whole shebang.



-Withers-​
 
And the fact that the first salvo of planetary defense batteries didn't blast - with its shields down - the Narada to smithereens is because apparently the people manning them were too stupid to fire back.

Or were themselves blasted to smithereens.

All of them before they got a shot off?

There's a fleet, then there's a planet-wide defense grid. A planet is a BIG place, you can put a LOT of phaser cannons and torpedo launchers on one.

I've never seen a movie this bad, ever.

:eek: Then there are some movies you need to see...

It gets a lot worse than this.

Name one.

In comparison to XI, Nemesis was a well-written, well-structured movie. Of course, Nemesis is a plot-hole ridden pile of shit. Which should tell you just how bad I consider XI. I've never seen a movie this bad, ever.

:rolleyes: Weren't you saying the same exact thing before the film even came out?

Nope, in fact, at the very first appearance of the news, I was rather cautiously optimistic.
 
Withers said:
They managed to make the sinking of the Kelvin epic and important while the destruction of Vulcan felt (to me anyway) less important than a criminal activities report.
http://reboot.trekcaps.net/caps/Star_Trek/ariane179254_StarTrek_4545.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1624.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2041.jpg

It's serious enough to Spock that he initially plans to leave Starfleet. And we don't get to see how Spock Prime reacted between what's shown in the mind meld and the time Kirk arrived.

3D Master said:
Name one.

:rolleyes: Oh, there's a lot more than one. By the way, several have already been named.

3D Master said:
There's a fleet, then there's a planet-wide defense grid.

The information needed to bypass Earth's defenses was given to Nero by Pike.
 
Withers said:
They managed to make the sinking of the Kelvin epic and important while the destruction of Vulcan felt (to me anyway) less important than a criminal activities report.
http://reboot.trekcaps.net/caps/Star_Trek/ariane179254_StarTrek_4545.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1624.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2041.jpg

It's serious enough to Spock that he initially plans to leave Starfleet. And we don't get to see how Spock Prime reacted between what's shown in the mind meld and the time Kirk arrived.

Well color me convinced. Screen caps from a movie I've seen at least three dozen times and the fact that Spock was going to quit Starfleet are all I needed to really feel the emotion in that scene properly.




-Withers-​
 
The reasons are many:
- It had to work as a standalone adventure, meaning a fresh start.

Which requires no cadet to captain.

- It had to be faster paced, which means the story strictly known to Canon would not have worked.
Bull. Faster paced does not require the sacrifice of canon, let alone cadet to captain.

- It had to to start with Kirk's youth, and end with him as Captain, again not possible with the linear story within Canon.
Which of course, makes the choice of a "linear" story, a BAD choice.

It wasn't actually handed to him. He had to fight through this movie to earn his place:
- He had to convinve Captain Pike about the nature of the Romulan attack.

Bull. His "convincing" first had no functional logic to it whatsoever. It's pure luck that he was right. Further, his convincing did absolutely nothing to the movie, because the whole reason he tried to convince Pike was so they could drop out of warp well before Vulcan and take a tactical assessment of what's going on around Vulcan and not "land in the (non-existent) trap." However, the moment he convinces Pike this indeed the case, they arrive at Vulcan, land in "the trap", and thus his convincing was utterly pointless and meaningless, and thus had no need to do it.

- He had to get Spock to reveal he was emotionally compromise.
And totally failed at it, as he first had to commit insubordination, attack a superior officer, get thrown off the Enterprise and learn to love the snow, and fail to notice old Spock's senility.

He could have pointed out Spock's irrationality (and I suppose stupidity) by simply calmly pointing out that a. wherever they were going they should be doing it at warp already instead of limping bout at sublight speeds, and thus that Spock isn't thinking straight, and then b. that now the Narada is gone they should be able to contact the fleet by subspace radio, as opposed flying all the way to it, before telling them what's going on. Thus if they do decide for the Enterprise and the fleet go to Earth together, they at least can decided a rendez-vous point much closer to Earth, as the fleet can already start for Earth.

But he was too much frothing at the mouth to be able to perform simple logic. Kirk is every bit as emotionally compromised as Spock is; in fact if the reaction to the destruction of Vulcan is normal, EVERYONE is emotionally compromised, which rather makes trying to show Spock is emotionally compromised rather pointless.

- He had to work with a crew who had no reason to respect him in order to defeat Nero, and save Earth and the Federation.

That's a hell of a lot to overcome.
That's because he's an asshole. Yet nowhere did he even for once have to prove himself to them, or even show a hint of leadership ability, not even a speech to convince them. Meaning he did not grow, he learned nothing, everything got tossed to him on a silver platter, and he did not really overcome anything.

I suspect this may be partly true. The movie could not guarantee sequels, and yet had to be set up so that sequels could be made.

The film also had the requirement to show the basic construct of Star Trek. That means, by definition, Kirk as the Captain by the end of the movie.
A simple promotion to Lieutenant instead of ensign, and then a "seven years later" caption would have done that just fine.

From the Studio, the return on investment was the primary focus.

From the filmmakers, making a good movie that achieved this goal was.

The "Bad Art" argument is not that applicable to those who do not believe this movie was "Bad Art".

It was not a Picasso Painting from a Shakespear play.

It was not a good movie, it was a horrible movie, that despite that made money.

Fortunately or unfortunately, it's done and over. I am looking forward to XII, which should be a much freer project. XI was tough to pull off. At least they did it in a fun way that was successful enough to bring another film which will hopefully have some more depth to it.

I share this sentiment. XI had some things done out of necessity, even if that necessity is not always seen.

XII now, thanks to XI, has an effectively clean slate.
Ah, yes, "Just wait till the next movie."

Ain't gonna happen. This pile made money. The next movie is not only going to be more of the same, it'll be worse. Just like Transformers 1 versus 2 by the same writing team.

3D Master said:
Name one.

:rolleyes: Oh, there's a lot more than one. By the way, several have already been named.

Again, name them, because I haven't heard them. I'd like to know which movies you consider worse, there's a chance I've seen them, and I'll tell you 'no', and why not.

I've seen The Asylum movies ripoffs, and they're better than JJ Trek, all of them.

3D Master said:
There's a fleet, then there's a planet-wide defense grid.
The information needed to bypass Earth's defenses was given to Nero by Pike.

No, Nero got the codes to shut down the solar systems AUTOMATED defenses. Which rather shows again the total incompetency of people in Starfleet. Seriously, if you do not know how to program a defense system that is capable of recognizing Starfleet ships (and we suppose civilian liners and merchant ships) you're an incompetent moron! Why else would a captain of a ship carry the command codes to turn off an entire solar systems defense systems? Because it gets blown to bits if it can't turn them off.

Of course, that doesn't really matter. Because even if being able to shut down an entire solars system's defense systems with some command codes isn't idiocy enough, there would still be MANNED MANUAL defense systems. And if not, then they're once again idiots, because whoever trusts the security of your capital world to an automated defense system only that can be hacked, and even more so one that has ways to be remotely shut down built in, are idiots.

This movie is mind-boggingly bad. I know how bad it is, and I still can't believe just how bad it is. With the exception of two scenes with Spock, it's just nothing but plot-holes, idiocies, and what not.
 
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Name one.

One just isn't enough. Off the top of my head? Quest for Camelot, Space Jam, Glitter, Land Before Time (I kid you not) XIII, X Files: I Want to Believe, Battlefield Earth, Star Wars: Christmas Special, Titanic: The Animated Musical (Seriously, look that one up. It GD exists), Good Burger, Batman and Robin, Congo, Judge Dread, Cool as Ice, ... I could go on with this forever.


-Withers-​
 
In comparison to XI, Nemesis was a well-written, well-structured movie. Of course, Nemesis is a plot-hole ridden pile of shit.
Nemesis was, in no way, a better movie. It had a different approach (more in keeping with what we saw from the TNG era movies) but that's about it. The writing and execution were terrible and if nothing else, if one just muted both films and watched them, it would be very difficult for me to believe anybody could be more visually pleased watching Nemesis than XI... but then there are people who think TOS looks futuristic and realistic so... maybe I'm crazy.
The writing and execution of Nemesis were indeed terrible, but they're nothing compared to Trek XI. Nemesis as a reasonably structured movie, lots of scenes that aren't filled with plotholes and idiocies, despite the fact it is rife with it. There is at least an attempt at something more and deeper than just, "Madman wants to blow up Earth". XI... XI just had nothing. There are just two scenes, last time I saw it, that wasn't FILLED with plot-holes, idiocies, or horrifying sets and other stuff. My god, the Kelvin engineering - had a brick wall! Enterprse communications had beer valve for the vats clearly visible and undisguised just sticking out! The vats it was part of, were easily spottable, massive roundings, even if they were slightly covered with white to make it look like an Enterprise wall.

And then there's the lens flares, the Enterprise engineering, the iBridge, god damn it, it looks awful. That's not even talking about the Narada outside and in. Hey, Nero, ever heard of railings? Keep people from falling to their deaths.

I've never seen a movie this bad, ever.
All that says to me is that you've only, by virtue of having actually lived through the plot of Blast From the Past, seen a handful of movies. If XI was honestly the worst movie you have ever seen... well, yeah, that's it. You just can't possibly have seen that many movies. I said it before somewhere but I have accidentally seen worse movies than XI.
Well, there you'd be wrong. I've seen lots and lots and lots of movies. I love movies. I watch them in the cinema all the time. I've got a huge collection, even b-movies. And all of them are better than Trek XI.

Name one.
One just isn't enough. Off the top of my head? Quest for Camelot,

Not even close.

Space Jam
This is actually not so bad; in fact I've always liked it.

, Glitter
Got nothing.

Land Before Time (I kid you not)
Hell no.

Lots better than Trek XI.

X Files: I Want to Believe
It ain't very good, but compared to Trek XI it's a masterpiece.

Battlefield Earth,
No, sorry, no. It's bad, it's horrible, but Trek XI manages to achieve "Unholy Abomination".

Star Wars: Christmas Special
No, sorry, again, no. It's bad, it's horrible. But it actually has some redeeming things in it, some good sets, can't remember the actresses name, but the bartender and her story line is pretty good, and isn't filled with the sheer level of horrifying that Trek XI manages, both plotholes, sets, idiocies, on and on, and on, and on, a staggering 12 within a single four minute set at one point.

Titanic: The Animated Musical (Seriously, look that one up. It GD exists)
No, sorry, again, no. It's bad, but it isn't Unholy Abomination bad, let alone of the unprecedented level that Trek XI is.

, Good Burger, Batman and Robin, Congo, Judge Dread, Cool as Ice, ... I could go on with this forever.
Sorry, nope, again, none of them come anywhere close.

Troll 2 and Troll 3 those are really bad, and from what I can tell, if I had seen them, I would call them Unholy Abominations as well, but sorry, I don't think they have achieved the unprecedented level of it that Trek XI managed, especially not considering the budget differences.

But I haven't seen them, and I'm not planning to, quite frankly, part of me wishes I had never seen Trek XI.


Haven't seen it, but I highly doubt it. The bits I have seen of it, don't seem Trek XI level of bad.

Also House of 1000 Corpses.

One I know nothing of.
 
Wow, 3D Master. If you seriously hate Star Trek 09 that much maybe you should just stop posting in this forum lest you have aneurysm or something.

Withers, Land Before Time should never be included in a list of bad movies.
 
Again, name them, because I haven't heard them.

Again, they had already been named. Read the previous page. No one's bluffing here. Truly bad movies are very real and very numerous. Saying "name one" is beyond ridiculous. It's tantamount to saying "name one person". Fine, here's the phone book. Knock yourself out.

No, sorry, again, no. It's bad, it's horrible. But it actually has some redeeming things in it, some good sets, can't remember the actresses name, but the bartender and her story line is pretty good, and isn't filled with the sheer level of horrifying that Trek XI manages

I would call the above "surreal nonsense"... but that would be insulting to surreal nonsense. This leaves you with absolutely no credibility at all.

wherever they were going they should be doing it at warp already instead of limping bout at sublight speeds

They were at warp. I guess you missed the whole "transwarp beaming" thing.

that now the Narada is gone they should be able to contact the fleet by subspace radio, as opposed flying all the way to it, before telling them what's going on.

Preexisting Star Trek canon does not support the presumption of instantaneous galaxywide subspace communication.

there would still be MANNED MANUAL defense systems.

The Narada destroyed 47 Klingon ships, has a seemingly bottomless supply of torpedoes, and made mincemeat of the Federation ships sent to Vulcan in like 34 seconds. Earth's defenses may not have been as effective as you seem to think.

especially not considering the budget differences.

This is called "moving the goalposts". Your initial claim said nothing about scaling to account for budget differences.
 
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Again, name them, because I haven't heard them.

Again, they had already been named. Read the previous page. No one's bluffing here. Truly bad movies are very real and very numerous. Saying "name one" is beyond ridiculous. It's tantamount to saying "name one person". Fine, here's the phone book. Knock yourself out.

Again, none of them come close, except a few I haven't seen.

No, sorry, again, no. It's bad, it's horrible. But it actually has some redeeming things in it, some good sets, can't remember the actresses name, but the bartender and her story line is pretty good, and isn't filled with the sheer level of horrifying that Trek XI manages

I would call the above "surreal nonsense"... but that would be insulting to surreal nonsense. This leaves you with absolutely no credibility at all.

:rolleyes:

They were at warp. I guess you missed the whole "transwarp beaming" thing.

You must have missed where the transwarp beaming only comes after they've marooned Kirk down to the planet from which you can see Vulcan.

Preexisting Star Trek canon does not support the presumption of instantaneous galaxywide subspace communication.

Oh, absolutely, however,

1. It's still faster than flying there all the way yourself.

2. The fleet wasn't on the other side of the Galaxy.

there would still be MANNED MANUAL defense systems.

The Narada destroyed 47 Klingon ships, has a seemingly bottomless supply of torpedoes, and made mincemeat of the Federation ships sent to Vulcan in like 34 seconds. Earth's defenses may not have been as effective as you seem to think.

It's about numbers, versus the size of one ship and entire planet and sheer power you can put in a planet-based cannon and torpedo/missile launcher. Remember the Best of Both Worlds? The torpedos that were sent at the Borg cube as one part of the solar system defense systems, were the size of the Defiant. It helps if you've got planets to launch stuff from instead of just a small ship.

especially not considering the budget differences.

This is called "moving the goalposts". Your initial claim said nothing about scaling to account for budget differences.

No, it's not. Because 1. I didn't see them, 2. what I have seen I still don't think they're as bad as Trek XI, and 3. the budget difference is no moving anything, it just illustrates how bad Trek XI really is if with all that budget they still couldn't beat b- and even c-movies.
 
Again, name them, because I haven't heard them.

Again, they had already been named. Read the previous page. No one's bluffing here. Truly bad movies are very real and very numerous. Saying "name one" is beyond ridiculous. It's tantamount to saying "name one person". Fine, here's the phone book. Knock yourself out.

Again, none of them come close, except a few I haven't seen.

Then you probably have no taste.
 
the budget difference is no moving anything, it just illustrates how bad Trek XI really is if with all that budget they still couldn't beat b- and even c-movies.
The only thing you've managed to illustrate so far is that you don't like Star Trek. Which is fine. But there's no reason to pretend that you've demonstrated anything beyond your personal feelings.
 
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