Really. You know how much energy people waste deluding themselves about themselves? Fuck that noise.
ST09 critics, why don't you like it?
- Thread starter Warped9
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Really. You know how much energy people waste deluding themselves about themselves? Fuck that noise.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Nope, my posts ARE facts. Every plot-hole I've named, is a plot-hole, no matter how you twist or turn it. And anyone who is honest and objective about it, will agree with me.
Once again, the opinions of a majority do not matter.
It's not an insult, it happens to the best of us. It happened to me. Armageddon when I first watched it, I liked a lot. Of course, a lot of people went to watch it, and apparently liked it, but there was a minority who called it bad.
These days, it's more like the other way around.
Thing is, back then, when someone pointed out all the bad things in that movie, all the plotholes, that I somehow missed because my mind got lulled, I didn't go spend my time trying to refute all the plotholes, nor did went, "Yeah, but, it made lots of money, and lots of people liked it." No, I kept my mind open, examined their arguments and the pointing out of the plotholes, I realized they were right, and acknowledged it as an abysmally bad movie.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
I hated Armageddon, from the get go.
And yes, it is an insult. That because one enjoys a film YOU deem to be bad, it has to be because of some kind of hypnosis.
No, 3D, people differ with you.
That's it.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
So, everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest and subjective (not that there is anything really objective about why one likes a film or not).
And what you call 'plot-holes' are nothing more than petty nitpicks.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
I just wish that us "ST09 dislikers" could have been left alone, entitled to our opinion, and allowed to express it amongst ourselves as a refuge, a "support group" for each other, to deal with the fact that we will not get "real" Star Trek for a very, very long time since this movie came out. They're not going to "go back" anytime soon, and I just wish other fans had been able to practice IDIC and allow us our say (to each other) instead of invading the thread and continuing to oppress us wherever we are found. We were minding our own business...
I was also hoping there'd be at least ONE place on the Internet that could be a mutual discussion instead of a flamewar/argument.
Yeah. Me too. That's why the "critic's" thread is sooooo much higher on the board than the "fan's". Because the proponents of NuTrek simply can't stay away. They can't resist the urge to ridicule, insult, and degrade those of us who don't share their opinion that STXI is the greatest Trek film ever made. It's not. By a looooooong shot. However, it seems that we, the detractors, can resist the urge to venture into the ST09 Fans' thread with no problem. Personally, I don't go there because I don't wish to cause the kind of ruckus that has happened on this thread. I would have nothing meaningful to contribute to a thread meant for people who actually liked the movie. So I don't go to that particular thread. I just wish some of the more vocal ST09 proponents would show us the same courtesy. Unfortunately, I'm sure it will never happen.
In fairness when some invoke the accusation, "You're not a fan or a real fan if you like or don't like________" (fill in the blank) then it smells of a last ditch attempt to silence whoever they're debating/arguing with.
I think a lot of the posters around here are very intelligent--hell it's one of the reasons I hang around, hoping some of it will rub off on me.
I think of mysrlf as reasnably perceptive. And if I say I don't see something in a film or television show and someone else keeps arguing, "Yes, it's there. What's wrong with you?" that isn't likely to be persuasive with me. Just insisting on something isn't a convincing argument. Often enough it's when someone just says, "I disagree because of this, this and this..." then I'm more likely to think about it and consider whether I should take another look. In the end I may change my mind or I may still not agree, but at least I won't feel like I was browbeaten about it.
I think this bears repeating.
I just wish that us "ST09 dislikers" could have been left alone, entitled to our opinion, and allowed to express it amongst ourselves as a refuge, a "support group" for each other, to deal with the fact that we will not get "real" Star Trek for a very, very long time since this movie came out. They're not going to "go back" anytime soon, and I just wish other fans had been able to practice IDIC and allow us our say (to each other) instead of invading the thread and continuing to oppress us wherever we are found. We were minding our own business...
I was also hoping there'd be at least ONE place on the Internet that could be a mutual discussion instead of a flamewar/argument.
Yeah. Me too. That's why the "critic's" thread is sooooo much higher on the board than the "fan's". Because the proponents of NuTrek simply can't stay away. They can't resist the urge to ridicule, insult, and degrade those of us who don't share their opinion that STXI is the greatest Trek film ever made. It's not. By a looooooong shot. However, it seems that we, the detractors, can resist the urge to venture into the ST09 Fans' thread with no problem. Personally, I don't go there because I don't wish to cause the kind of ruckus that has happened on this thread. I would have nothing meaningful to contribute to a thread meant for people who actually liked the movie. So I don't go to that particular thread. I just wish some of the more vocal ST09 proponents would show us the same courtesy. Unfortunately, I'm sure it will never happen.
Well said, my friend! Well said.
Get over yourselves. You cannot speak nuTrek or Trek 09 or Trek XI without some hater interjected him or her into the topic on why the new film sucks in accordance with their own opinions. Which would then detract from the original topic, such as the discussion about Shatner's Trial Run, a planned sequel to Collision Course.
To 3D, opinions of the majority do matter. They are the biggest indicator on whether or not more Trek should be produced and made. Your facts are quite diluted and without truth to them. In fact, they are opinions and you made another insulting remark that was pointed out.
To 3D, opinions of the majority do matter. They are the biggest indicator on whether or not more Trek should be produced and made. Your facts are quite diluted and without truth to them. In fact, they are opinions and you made another insulting remark that was pointed out.
You keep saying this particularly when someone says something you don't agree with or even like. You bait easily, don't you? Why not get over that? You don't have jump on every little thing like it's a deal breaker.
Let people have their say.
For the record anyone might think someone else has lower standards than themselves, but I'd suggest that it isn't the most diplomatic thing to say aloud. It pretty much guarantees that your opinion isn't going to get a respectful hearing after being told their standards aren't very high.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
No, nitpicks, as I've explained before, are pointing out editing errors, a power line that is visible in a shot, etc. The mirror wound on evil Kik's face in "The Enemy Within", that is a nit.
Those that I mentioned are actual plot-holes in the story; or things are just plain stupid, period.
They are two very different things. And claiming the things I pointed out are mere nitpicks to try and marginalize them is dishonest.
Okay, go to the fan thread, return here, and post the proof please. I know I haven't gone in there, not even to read it.
Yeah, you see, I've always said, I much rather see Trek (or any other franchise) END, than to see it continued with utter shit, and that shit being dumped all over the good stuff that came before.
Of course they are, I only imagined Spock arriving in the transporter room much later than Chekov, I only imagined dialogue claiming the anomaly was still outside of visual range while it was already visibly on the screen, I only imagined a massive dangerous predator throw another animal away as opposed to killing and eating it even more ludicrous given the freezing climate, I only imagined the most advanced just new starship in the fleet having apparently no way to scan anything FTL, yet some rinkidink little station that doesn't even get proper food deliveries, can, I only imagined a massive ship firing a massive weapon at the Earth, and nobody deciding to fire back.
They're just deluded figment's of my imagination.
Then why is the "ST09 Fans" thread practically empty, while the "ST09 Critics" thread infested with people who are intolerant of "dissenters" and has a way higher post count?
It is you who will not leave us alone or allow us to have our say.
YES!
Following this thread I'm inclined to think that we've pretty much aired all the reasons the film doesn't work for us. At this point the thread is continuing because the old arguments have ensued: "No, it isn't!" "Yes, it is!"
No one here is going to convince the other side of anything, but by all means they'll keep trying. It's back to, "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!"
No one here is going to convince the other side of anything, but by all means they'll keep trying. It's back to, "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!"
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Following this thread I'm inclined to think that we've pretty much aired all the reasons the film doesn't work for us. At this point the thread is continuing because the old arguments have ensued: "No, it isn't!" "Yes, it is!"
No one here is going to convince the other side of anything, but by all means they'll keep trying. It's back to, "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!"
'Twas ever thus.....
...ok. Now what? Can we continue to talk about why we didn't like it without you getting all confrontational? I welcome your thoughts on why you liked it, just as long as it doesn't mean you have to make a case in pointing out that our views are irrelevant. If they weren't irrelevant, you wouldn't be talking like this in a thread that is obviously not to your liking.
Yes. He should get over himself.
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When the title of the thread is ST09 CRITICS, you'd think that'd be a cue to those that like it to stay away.
WARNING: POTENTIALLY IRRITATING PEOPLE INSIDE. And obviously we do irritate, otherwise, they wouldn't keep picking at the irritant.
It's not the hardest thing to not venture into threads with titles which should be regarded as a guideline for who should be posting in there. Like on the Classic board where Chris Pine supporters have come out of the woodwork since some people had the temerity to suggest they liked Shatner's Kirk better.
WARNING: POTENTIALLY IRRITATING PEOPLE INSIDE. And obviously we do irritate, otherwise, they wouldn't keep picking at the irritant.
It's not the hardest thing to not venture into threads with titles which should be regarded as a guideline for who should be posting in there. Like on the Classic board where Chris Pine supporters have come out of the woodwork since some people had the temerity to suggest they liked Shatner's Kirk better.
Withers
Captain
So, if I don't see Trek as some sort of sacrosanct set of principles that must never be violated by attempts to add to it as a whole contrary to what I personally want, I must not care about it enough to warrant posting on a forum about it? Essentially, if I don't go off the deep end in one way or another, either gushing love for it or spewing bile at it, I don't belong?
It sure would make your job easier if that were true, wouldn't it? Unfortunately some of us actually are reasonable, measured people, who just want to talk about it- not hold a daily meeting of the pretentious tight-ass club over it or nail anybody to the cross for their feelings on it one way or the other.
-Withers-
^^ You know I'm getting rather pissed with this.
I set up TWO THREADS to cover this film: one for the fans to praise it to high heaven without any argument from critics, and one for critics to gripe about why they're disappointed without being badgered.
The evidence speaks for itself. The fan thread is basically dormant because for the most part the critics stayed out of it so fans could have their say without argument. It worked well enough that rather quickly the fans seemed to run out of positive things to say. The critic's thread likely would have petered out as well EXCEPT that fan's of the film elected to come in here and start challenging the critics' criticisms.
The fans had their say without argument, BUT some fans weren't satisfied with that---they had to challenge any criticism of their beloved film.
I hasten to add not all fans did this, but rather a handful of them. Some fans did take part in reasonable debate, but a few seem hellbent on getting an argument started. They couldn't respect the intent of the thread.
And arguing against the intent of the thread is blatant hypocrisy after they had a thread of their own unmolested.
I set up TWO THREADS to cover this film: one for the fans to praise it to high heaven without any argument from critics, and one for critics to gripe about why they're disappointed without being badgered.
The evidence speaks for itself. The fan thread is basically dormant because for the most part the critics stayed out of it so fans could have their say without argument. It worked well enough that rather quickly the fans seemed to run out of positive things to say. The critic's thread likely would have petered out as well EXCEPT that fan's of the film elected to come in here and start challenging the critics' criticisms.
The fans had their say without argument, BUT some fans weren't satisfied with that---they had to challenge any criticism of their beloved film.
I hasten to add not all fans did this, but rather a handful of them. Some fans did take part in reasonable debate, but a few seem hellbent on getting an argument started. They couldn't respect the intent of the thread.
And arguing against the intent of the thread is blatant hypocrisy after they had a thread of their own unmolested.
Withers
Captain
That, is in fact, not what happened at all. The moderating team, in its infinite wisdom, shut the sister thread to this one down after deciding the barbs (if one can even call them that) were a little too mean spirited for tea-time Tuesday. The critics did not stay out of that thread which was eventually what got it shut down. The real question is what's the difference here? More people were participating and were being meaner about it than the other thread? Is that it?
Either way I don't think its fair to blame fans for defending this film when critics defended their criticism in the thread where they weren't supposed to do that. This has gone for 26 pages because the Moderating team allowed it to go for 26 pages not because there's more criticism for the movie than there is love for it and not because fans of the movie can't keep their mouths shut like the critics can.
It isn't just the fans who seem hellbent on getting an argument started and it isn't just the fans who disrespected the integrity and intent of your threads. This one just went on long enough for you to notice.
Either way I don't think its fair to blame fans for defending this film when critics defended their criticism in the thread where they weren't supposed to do that. This has gone for 26 pages because the Moderating team allowed it to go for 26 pages not because there's more criticism for the movie than there is love for it and not because fans of the movie can't keep their mouths shut like the critics can.
It isn't just the fans who seem hellbent on getting an argument started and it isn't just the fans who disrespected the integrity and intent of your threads. This one just went on long enough for you to notice.
-Withers-
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