Q --- overused/comicalised?

[Trollheart]

Not sure where to put this, since it covers at least three series, but since we first encountered (ahem!) him in NextGen, thought it might be best to write it here.

Q began as a powerful, perhaps evil, certainly omnipotent force in EAF, and they eventually tried to bring him full circle in AGT, but over the years (and series), can it not be true that they diminished his character, bringing him quite quickly to the role of buffoon, jester and sort of good egg: not a bad fella once you get to know him --- sure, he wipes out the odd civilisation, mucks about with time, but then, who doesn't?

From his exploits fencing with the crew of NCC1701-D, through his later encounters with Janeway and brief appearance in DS9 (and I would assume he also turns up in Enterprise, though I quickly lost interest in that series), Q seems to be very rapidly downgraded, from a life-threatening, godlike power to more a "Charlie X"-style mischievous little boy.

Sure, some of the eps were funny, almost comedy gold (Q ordering 10 chocolate sundaes, his classic "This is really getting on my nerves, now that I have them!" and so on), but initially he wasn't supposed to be funny, was he? Was it JdL's own quirky nature that rewrote the character? Did he appear too frightening and all-powerful in the first episode and had to be toned down? Was he just not working as a character ("Get rid of the fellow with the ears." Yeah, we know what would have happened if THAT advice had been followed!).

Was Q, to be brutal, castrated like the poor Borg? And even Species 8472 iin Voyager? Is there/was there no room for an unremitting, remorseless, totally evil figure in the ST universe? I would say Gul Dukat came closest, and even then they tried to water his character down.

Any thoughts?

I loved Q, by the way, just wonder if he was meant to turn out as he did, and if it was, in general, good or bad, both for the franchise and for the fans.

 

[Withers]

Was Q, to be brutal, castrated like the poor Borg? And even Species 8472 iin Voyager

Absolutely. It's hard for me to look at the meancing Q from All Good Things... as the same Q who appeared on Voyager. One was an ominous, layered, prankster with something to teach humanity while the other was essentially just a cosmic clown placed on Voyager for seemingly no other purpose than the "get the yucks" factor. A lot of people find what was done to the Borg on Voyager the shows biggest mistake. For me it was what they did to Q. What. A. Shame.

Is there/was there no room for an unremitting, remorseless, totally evil figure in the ST universe? I would say Gul Dukat came closest, and even then they tried to water his character down.

People like to root for the bad guy every now and then. A Trek bad guy you absolutely can't root for = Shinzon and the less of that the better in my opinion. Gul Dukat was probably the closest to irredeemable and I think that was made clear by his behavior during the 6th and 7th seasons. I'd rather that than another villain like, oh, Ru'afo (or however you spell it.)

-Withers-​

 

[DevilEyes]

Not sure where to put this, since it covers at least three series, but since we first encountered (ahem!) him in NextGen, thought it might be best to write it here.

Q began as a powerful, perhaps evil, certainly omnipotent force in EAF, and they eventually tried to bring him full circle in AGT, but over the years (and series), can it not be true that they diminished his character, bringing him quite quickly to the role of buffoon, jester and sort of good egg: not a bad fella once you get to know him --- sure, he wipes out the odd civilisation, mucks about with time, but then, who doesn't?

From his exploits fencing with the crew of NCC1701-D, through his later encounters with Janeway and brief appearance in DS9 (and I would assume he also turns up in Enterprise, though I quickly lost interest in that series)

He never appeared in ENT, fortunately.

Q seems to be very rapidly downgraded, from a life-threatening, godlike power to more a "Charlie X"-style mischievous little boy.

I think you mean Trelane-style mischievous little boy. Charlie X was creepy and troubled and his acts very sinister and not funny at all.

In that case, yes, they did water him down - although I don't think Q was ever presented as an unremitting, totally evil figure. I'd say he started off as mix of annoying, sinister and funny, and then lost complexity and turned into a buffoon, esp. on DS9 and VOY. But he was used well in Tapestry in All Good Things... even though he was not really a bad guy there, and those were his most interesting appearances.

Was Q, to be brutal, castrated like the poor Borg? And even Species 8472 iin Voyager? Is there/was there no room for an unremitting, remorseless, totally evil figure in the ST universe? I would say Gul Dukat came closest, and even then they tried to water his character down.

Actually with Dukat it was the opposite: he became a lot more complex, likable and popular with the fans than any of the writers ever intended, so they did their best to make him as one-dimensionally evil as possible in the last season in the misguided idea that this was the only way to hammer it home that he was a bad man and that nobody should find excuses for him.

 

[Kelthaz]

I've always hated Trek's use of God Nouns, and Q was no exception. Turning him into a comical character was the best thing they could have done for him and it made his few appearances in the otherwise sterile TNG a real delight. Every show needs a bit of comedy and John De Lancie excelled at it.

 

[Withers]

Every show needs a bit of comedy and John De Lancie excelled at it. __________________

This show had nothing if not comedy. That they needed to bring in outside talent to do it right only speaks to its ultimate failings in writing dialogue and establishing characters through development.

-Withers-​

 

[Trollheart]

I think you mean Trelane-style mischievous little boy. Charlie X was creepy and troubled and his acts very sinister and not funny at all.

Yes, sorry. It's late...

As for TNG being sterile, I think that's unfair. Sure, the characters were a little rigid (even JLP had to pull that pole out of his (ahem!) every so often and let loose!), but for the most part the stories were well-written, if within a somewhat restrictive universe-view. For sterile going on dead, see Voyager and continue with Enterprise (bring your hammer and some nails).

I would rate the shows thus personally, on two levels.
Level 1: comedic/light-hearted/not taking itself too seriously (in descending order):-
TOS
VOY
TNG
DS9
(Can't really rate ENT as I didn't watch it all --- couldn't)

Level 2: the opposite. Serious drama, real issues, shades of grey
DS9
TNG
VOY
TOS
(see above)

 

[Trollheart]

As for the fall of the Borg, yes, Voyager kicked the proverbial out of them (and their suddenly tougher enemies, Species 8472), but for me the rot began with two words:

I, Borg.

This also shows how unwilling JLP is to "cross the line". Could you see Sisko shirking the chance to wipe out the Borg, given a once-in-a-lifetime chance? I don't think so! He'd have had that virus programmed and uploaded quicker than you can say "Wrongs darker than death or night"!

 

[Sykonee]

I would rate the shows thus personally, on two levels.
Level 1: comedic/light-hearted/not taking itself too seriously (in descending order):-
TOS
VOY
TNG
DS9
(Can't really rate ENT as I didn't watch it all --- couldn't)

Really? Not to turn this into a Niner's thread () but DS9 probably poked fun at the Trek Franchise the most out of all the shows. Quark parodying Picard's "THIS LINE, NO FURTHER!" speech; Nog asking Jake what the hell it means to "work to better ourselves". Not to mention other fun comedy episodes, like the great send-up of the Bond franchise in Our Man Bashir.

DS9 may have had its fair share of serious episodes, but it had some of the funniest ones too.


Okay, back to Q. Um... yeah, they sadly watered him down, I'd say as far back as Q-Pid, but they did redeem him somewhat before the end of TNG's run. After The Q And The Grey, however...

 

[Kelthaz]

As for TNG being sterile, I think that's unfair. Sure, the characters were a little rigid (even JLP had to pull that pole out of his (ahem!) every so often and let loose!), but for the most part the stories were well-written, if within a somewhat restrictive universe-view.

Yeah, maybe sterile wasn't the right word to use. Maybe stiff would be better?

Anyway, TNG was such a rather stiff show that a character such as Q, or Lwaxana even, helped to break up the tedium and make the show much more enjoyable. Great as those episodes were, you just can't bombard viewers with "The Inner Light", "Best of Both Worlds", "Measure of a Man", etc. for seven years without a break -- without a release. Q was an excellent break from the standard TNG formula.

 

[Mojochi]

Brent Spiner is an actor/comedian, known primarily for his tv comedy appearances, prior to TNG. They casted a comedian to play the android. It's easy to make comedy with a smart mouthed Ferengi. The hardest I ever laughed at Star Trek, was Data reading a poem about his cat, & that was in a horror-like episode about alien abductions, no less. It still cracks me up after countless viewings

I hold firm in believing that they spread some solid comedy throughout the entirety of that show, as well as any of the other shows did. I haven't even mentioned some of the stuff they did with Worf

But yes, Q was softened as TNG developed, but I think that evolution was always going to be the case. The way it happened, with comedy, was largely due to De Lancie. However, though I'm unfamiliar with much of what they did with him afterward, I'll say that they did manage to keep a certain amount of foreboding about his character throughout TNG, impish though it may have gotten at times

 

[RegFan]

Q seems to be very rapidly downgraded, from a life-threatening, godlike power to more a "Charlie X"-style mischievous little boy.

I think you mean Trelane-style mischievous little boy. Charlie X was creepy and troubled and his acts very sinister and not funny at all.

In that case, yes, they did water him down - although I don't think Q was ever presented as an unremitting, totally evil figure. I'd say he started off as mix of annoying, sinister and funny, and then lost complexity and turned into a buffoon, esp. on DS9 and VOY. But he was used well in Tapestry in All Good Things... even though he was not really a bad guy there, and those were his most interesting appearances.

I agree that Tapestry and AGT were his best episodes. I always liked him the best as a sort of a mentor for Picard. He didn't work as a villain and even though he was funny, I didn't like his episodes in VOY. His best scenes were always the ones between him and Picard. I'm glad he never appeared on ENT, it would probably have been like that Ferengi episode. But still, Regeneration was much better than most of the Borg episodes in VOY and In a Mirror, Darkly is one of the best episodes in the series even though the MU episodes in DS9 were bad. So a Q episode might have been good.

 

[Nightdiamond]

What made Q so interesting in the earlier TNG episodes was the combination of being all powerful and menacing at the same time.

He would simply whisk the crew to anywhere he wanted and do almost anything he wanted to them, and it seemed like no one could do anything about it.

You could see that in how frustrated Tasha looked when she had to stand in Q's penalty box. Did Q like her very much?

Even with Q who and Deja Q, I liked the way they showed the types of things this guy could to do.

But by the time of Voyager's later episodes, they made him too less mysterious and familiar, lost some of the fascination...

 

[C.E. Evans]

I believe Q was used the most effectively in TNG. We did saw a character go from being potentially the biggest threat Humanity had ever faced, to a playful (albeit still dangerous) meddler, to someone who ultimately helped Humanity avoid its own destruction. I think that was an evolution of the character that was likely driven by Q learning more about Humanity through his contacts with Picard and his crew. He went from a would-be arbitrary judge and executioner to an actual advocate (or sorts, anyway).

Now after TNG, however, that's a different story. I do tend think he was used mostly for comic relief in DS9 & VOY and was largely depicted as an annoyance. In VOY, he was actually bringing his domestic problems within the Q Continuum to Aunt Katie's door...

 

[Tiberius]

The best thing about Q wasn't that he was funny, or menacing, or powerful.

it was that he dealt with some really deep issues and yet did it in a way that made them understandable?

What would happen if a person got unlimited power? Would they find that they could control it, as they thought they could? or would they find that they would be corrupted by it? (They did this twice, in two different ways, Hide and Q and True Q.)

What would happen if a cocky person who thought that they didn't need help and were prepared for anything was put in a position that they couldn't get out of? Would they admit their mistake, or would their pride lead to their death? (Q Who?)

What would you do if you had the chance to relive your life, to correct some of the mistakes you made in your youth? (tapestry)

He also dealt with the issue of suicide (Deathwish), showing what the best qualities of humanity are (Q2 and All Good Things), and he got Picard to wake up and admit to himself his feelings about Vash.

The fact that he was often quirky about these things doesn't bother me.

The only time I really feel he was misused was in that shitty DS9 episode. deLancie himself said, "Q is best used when he deals with large philosophical issues."

 

[Nardpuncher]

I found it funny how Sisko and Janeway reacted when Q came around. All and acting like he was an annoyance.
For Picard it was OK as he's dealt with him a few times, but they looked a little silly saying "What do you want Q? We don't want to play games!"
If I was a Captain and I got to meet him I'd be acting like I met a celebrity.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It seems like they became less awe struck and more annoyed.

It seemed like Trek was becoming a little bored with super powers at that point. Maybe a little over exposure.

In the TOS, there was certain fascination when encountering supernatural beings like that, and they sort of kept them mysterious and out of reach to continue that feeling.

When TNG came along, we suddenly see this omnipotent being, whom seemed to have no limits.

I remembered how baffled or shocked Picard and the crew were at his powers, but over time, I think all the advanced technology and exposure wore the fascination out...

 

[Trollheart]

I would rate the shows thus personally, on two levels.
Level 1: comedic/light-hearted/not taking itself too seriously (in descending order):-
TOS
VOY
TNG
DS9
(Can't really rate ENT as I didn't watch it all --- couldn't)

Really? Not to turn this into a Niner's thread () but DS9 probably poked fun at the Trek Franchise the most out of all the shows. Quark parodying Picard's "THIS LINE, NO FURTHER!" speech; Nog asking Jake what the hell it means to "work to better ourselves". Not to mention other fun comedy episodes, like the great send-up of the Bond franchise in Our Man Bashir.

DS9 may have had its fair share of serious episodes, but it had some of the funniest ones too.


.

No, I stand by that. Although the show had some funny moments (almost no show can last without SOME comic rellef --- 24, Spooks, BSG (apparently: never watched it) being the only ones I can think of at the moment), DS9 stills tands out to me as the most serious of all the Treks. Voyager was loaded with throwaway lines (and throwaway scripts!), people getting into a sticky situation over a five pound note etc. TOS almost always ended with the crew laughing, and there was much "happy" music, plus the dynamic between Spock/Kirk/McCoy was possibly, at times, one of the greatest three-man stand-up acts in the galaxy! Even TNG had eps where they poked fun at things (Q aside, Data's hamfisted attempts to "become more human" would come to mind).

But DS9, I believe, took itself more seriously as a TV DRAMA than a Sci-fi show. It was very dark, very heavy at times and the good guys did not always win. Things did not always work out and the right way was not always necessarily the RIGHT way. Even the opener had Sisko on a downer, not wanting to be assigned to the station. Contrast that with any of the others, possibly Voyager excepted: "Caretraker" was a pretty dark episode, but they quickly set about making us forget about that with a slew of "light conic relief" ones.

No, a few jokes thrown into a serious situation doesn't make the situation that much lighter. It may temporarily lessen the mood, but the darkness is always there. For me, DS9 was always the brooding, elder brother of the franchise, with all the cares, worries, responsibilities on its shoulders, while its siblings ran around the galaxy and played spacemen.
Or maybe, it was more the father...?

Now, sing it with me...

Some things can make you sad
Others make you mad
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll make things turn out for the best!

Aaaannndddd.....

 

[Anika Hanson]

I liked Q in TNG but I think he wasnt used well in DS9 and VOY. I think they should have left it with TNG.

 

[JustKate]

I don't think Q was ever overused. He might have been misused (and yes, Voyager, I am talking about you, at least part of the time), but overused? Never.

And jeez, if the comedy comes naturally - which I think it really did with Q, presumably because of de Lancie - why NOT use it?

 

[Start Wreck]

The lack of ominous threat of Q is somewhat justified by the fact that humanity had already 'proven' itself after the first episode. He stopped calling them a savage child race and became more... intrigued by them. Heck, in Q's second appearance, we discover they are actually SCARED of humanity and what they may eventually become, surpassing the Q!