After the Destiny events, The Typhon Pact and future novels

[Deranged Nasat]

"Others see us as a moral bully, a power so strong they fear it threatens their autonomy. Could they be right? Are we acting in ways that are ultimately harmful to the autonomy of other cultures? Do we need to reform?" Self-examination is vital if one wishes to stay honest and ethical.

True, but I'd say that no government would ever self-examine in this way because governments aren't interested in honesty or ethics, apart from in terms of hollow pronouncements in keeping with certain ideologies the people might demand they spout out.

When did I say anything about the government? I was referring to the society as a whole -- the populace whose values determine what they're willing to let the government get away with and what they'll penalize it for at the polls.

Oh, sorry. When you said "the Federation" I went away with the idea you meant the organism of government, when, as you say, you meant the society.

Anyway, I was in a cynical mood last night (big shock, I'm sure, after that post ). Please excuse me. I was a bit caught up in my own bitterness (and I certainly wouldn't presume to lecture people- particularly you and Sci- on politics. Again, please accept my apologies).

 

[PrimeDirective]

It's true that they do try to convince others(if the civilization that they encounter has a culture where its people are made to suffer in anyway), that the Federation's ideals are more suitable for everybody. But if the civilization's ideals make its people happy and prosperous, like those of the Federation's, the thing that they do is try to incorporate them into the Federation so that everybody(including the civilization being incorporated) benefit. But if they don't want to be part of the Federation, then they don't become part of it.

 

[Sci]

It's true that they do try to convince others(if the civilization that they encounter has a culture where its people are made to suffer in anyway), that the Federation's ideals are more suitable for everybody. But if the civilization's ideals make its people happy and prosperous, like those of the Federation's, the thing that they do is try to incorporate them into the Federation so that everybody(including the civilization being incorporated) benefit. But if they don't want to be part of the Federation, then they don't become part of it.

Yes, we know. No one's accusing the Federation of violent conquest or of violating other cultures' sovereignties.

But putting a positive spin on it does not change the fact that the Federation can be profoundly ethnocentric, expansionistic, and culturally imperialistic.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It's true that they do try to convince others(if the civilization that they encounter has a culture where its people are made to suffer in anyway), that the Federation's ideals are more suitable for everybody. But if the civilization's ideals make its people happy and prosperous, like those of the Federation's, the thing that they do is try to incorporate them into the Federation so that everybody(including the civilization being incorporated) benefit. But if they don't want to be part of the Federation, then they don't become part of it.

Yes, we know. No one's accusing the Federation of violent conquest or of violating other cultures' sovereignties.

But putting a positive spin on it does not change the fact that the Federation can be profoundly ethnocentric, expansionistic, and culturally imperialistic.

If the Federation is not forcing anyone to adopt its beliefs, it's not 'imperialistic' - the essential element of force/imposing one's will on others is missing.

The Federation is the least 'ethnocentric' political structure in the trekverse. Compare it to the romulans, klingons, cardassians, borg.

And the Federation expands, yes - because new member worlds choose on their own, without any coercion to join it. 'Expansionistic' implies an element of aggression, of conquest, which is completely missing.

 

[PrimeDirective]

Thank you ProtoAvatar, for seeing my point

 

[Sci]

It's true that they do try to convince others(if the civilization that they encounter has a culture where its people are made to suffer in anyway), that the Federation's ideals are more suitable for everybody. But if the civilization's ideals make its people happy and prosperous, like those of the Federation's, the thing that they do is try to incorporate them into the Federation so that everybody(including the civilization being incorporated) benefit. But if they don't want to be part of the Federation, then they don't become part of it.

Yes, we know. No one's accusing the Federation of violent conquest or of violating other cultures' sovereignties.

But putting a positive spin on it does not change the fact that the Federation can be profoundly ethnocentric, expansionistic, and culturally imperialistic.

If the Federation is not forcing anyone to adopt its beliefs, it's not 'imperialistic' - the essential element of force/imposing one's will on others is missing.

From Wikipedia:

Imperialism, defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." Imperialism has been described as a primarily western concept that employs "expansionist – mercantilist and latterly communist – systems."[1]

Imperialism is considered the control by one state of other territories. Through political or military means (direct imperialism), the imperial power may take over the government of a particular territory, or through economic processes (indirect imperialism), in which the concerned region is officially self-governing but linked to the imperial power by (often unequal) trade relations. Furthermore, the notion of cultural imperialism is indicated by "existing or traditional ways of life and ways of thinking [that] are subordinated to the culture of the imperialists."[2]

I'm sorry, but in no way can a power that engages in a systematic campaign to erase cultural beliefs that do not match up its beliefs not be said to be engaging in a form of cultural imperialism. It's a completely fair assessment: The Federation seeks to create an un-equal cultural relationship by replacing native cultural beliefs that conflict with its own, thereby subordinating foreign cultures to its own culture.

Consent does not necessarily conflict with the definition of imperialism.

In particular, it does not conflict with the definition of cultural imperialism, which is the more specific description given to the Federation's actions:

Cultural imperialism is the practice of promoting, distinguishing, separating, or artificially injecting the culture of one society into another. It is usually the case that the former belongs to a large, economically or militarily powerful nation and the latter belongs to a smaller, less important one. Cultural imperialism can take the form of an active, formal policy or a general attitude. A metaphor of colonialism is employed: the cultural products of the first world "invade" the third-world and "conquer" local culture.[1] In the stronger variants of the term, world domination (in a cultural sense) is the explicit goal of the nation-states or corporations that export the culture.[1] The term is usually used in a pejorative sense, usually in conjunction with a call to reject foreign influence.

The Federation's systematic campaign to replace any foreign belief systems it regards as unegalitarian can quite accurately be described as a large, militarily and economically powerful society injecting its culture into a foreign society, thereby culturally subordinating them.

The Federation is the least 'ethnocentric' political structure in the trekverse. Compare it to the romulans, klingons, cardassians, borg.

So what? Other people's behavior does not mitigate the Federation's. It remains a fact that the Federation can be profoundly ethnocentric, particularly where its beliefs in egalitarianism come into play. Is that a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. But let's not sugar-coat it.

And the Federation expands, yes - because new member worlds choose on their own, without any coercion to join it. 'Expansionistic' implies an element of aggression, of conquest, which is completely missing.

But there is an element of aggression. They engage in a systematic campaign to persuade people who believe differently from them to abandon their beliefs. They may not engage in coercion, but they certainly don't tolerate beliefs that conflict with theirs, either -- and you've got to wonder how many relatively unimportant planets that aren't major players in the quadrant might feel coerced even if that's not the Federation's intent.

How much of the Federation's campaign to eradicate foreign beliefs it doesn't approve of with the consent of those foreigners actually has their consent, and how much of that campaign's success is attributable to those foreign societies being afraid of or intimidated by the Federation because of its size and power?

No one's saying the Federation is evil, or that it's a traditional imperialist. No one's saying they're an empire or that they're the moral equals of the other powers of the galaxy. But in their zeal to promote egalitarianism, they're, well, not exactly egalitarian.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@Sci
About imperialism:

You say the Federation is engaged in "a systematic campaign to erase cultural beliefs that do not match up its beliefs" "through political or military means (direct imperialism)"?

You'll have to prove that - show when the Federation politically pressured any other civilization to renounce its values. Or show when the Federation militarily imposed its values on another civilization. SYSTEMATICALLY, no less.

O, and you'll have to do better than a line from an episode - you'll have to name FACTS, not WORDS.

About cultural imperialism:

The cultural imperialism practiced by the Federation is more correctly named 'exchange of ideas'. This exchange of ideas is inevitable each time two different civilizations meet. And this echange of ideas is beneficial to both civilizations.

The Federation is actually pathetically timid when it comes to 'cultural imperialism', Sci - more timid than it's wise or even moral.
Observe the ridicoulous interpretation of the Prime Directive in the 24th century (TNG:Homeward) - Don't make contact regardless of the circumstances or you'll 'contaminate' them!.

About expansionism:

Again with your systematic campaign to erase other people's values.
As I said, prove that the Federation is actively and systematically trying to erase other's values - either through military means or through force.
Prove that the Federation's cultural imperialism extends beyond an 'exchange of ideas'.

 

[Sci]

@Sci
About imperialism:

You say the Federation is engaged in "a systematic campaign to erase cultural beliefs that do not match up its beliefs" "through political or military means (direct imperialism)"?

No. I've said, time and again, that the Federation is engaged in a systematic campaign to erase cultural beliefs that do not mach its beliefs through persuasion. Please do not put words in my mouth.

You'll have to prove that - show when the Federation politically pressured any other civilization to renounce its values.

I've already done so earlier in this thread.

No one says it openly, but it's easily observable in their behavior. How many times does Captain Kirk have to overthrow an alien dictatorship, or Captain Picard have to give a sanctimonious speech against values he disagrees with, or does Riker have to talk about the idea of the Ferengi learning from the Federation, or do we have to see the Federation trying to moderate the behavior of the Klingon Empire, or do we have to see Sisko receiving orders to do everything he can short of violating the Prime Directive to bring Bajor into the Federation, or see Captain Janeway citing the Federation Charter as an example of how to bring disparate groups together, before we can reasonably conclude that one of the Federation's goals is the spread of its beliefs and the union of the galaxy under its banner?

About cultural imperialism:

The cultural imperialism practiced by the Federation is more correctly named 'exchange of ideas'. This exchange of ideas is inevitable each time two different civilizations meet. And this echange of ideas is beneficial to both civilizations.

Except that the Federation, when it comes to beliefs it disagrees with, doesn't want to "exchange" ideas. It rejected Ferengi capitalism out of hand, for instance. The Federation wants to spread its values to other cultures, wants those other culture to abolish beliefs it disagrees with, and only wants to accept beliefs from other cultures that don't conflict with its own beliefs.

The Federation's goals with regards to such "cultural exchange" are completely one-sided. The goal isn't to exchange cultural beliefs as equals -- the goal is to spread their beliefs, period.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@Sci

About imperialism:

If "the Federation is engaged in a systematic campaign to erase cultural beliefs that do not mach its beliefs through persuasion" then the Federation is NOT imperialistic.

As per the definition (quoted by you), "imperialism" requires systematic political or military pressure against another civilization in order to change its values.
Mere persuasion is cultural imperialism - at most.

About cultural imperialism:

Ferengi and Federation civilizations - at first, each civilization rejected the other's values out of hand. And each civilization tried to persuade the other one of its values every time they met.

In the end, the Federation persuaded the Ferengi to adopt some of its values and not the other way around.
Why? We can speculate that Federation values give birth to a civilization which creates happy and productive lives for the largest part of its population - unlike traditional Ferengi values, for example.
Whatever the reason, what is important to realise is that the Federation used ONLY PERSUASION (backed up by NO PRESSURE WHATSOEVER) to spread its values. Much like the Ferengi used persuasion to spread their values.

This is called 'exchange of ideas' - and, as I already mentioned, it is not only inevitable when two civilizations meet, but beneficial to both civilizations.

I have the impresion that this 'exchange of ideas' is not what you actually criticise - you don't like the fact that this 'exchange of ideas' is SO EFFICIENT in spreading Federation values.
Well, Sci, perhaps Federation values just make sense.


Sci, I am surprised that you argue that the Federationn is culturally imperialistic.

The scenarists/writers specifically made the Federation to be as culturally NON-imperialistic as possible - and the Prime Directive is the clearest proof. They made the Federation so NON culturally-imperialistic that the Federation often looks suicidal or plain immoral.

I know you disagree - in this case, Sci, create an hypothetical STABLE civilization that travels between stars and talks with other species/civilizations which is actually LESS culturally imperialistic than the Federation.

 

[David cgc]

Well, if it's a two-way exchange of ideas, can we think of any examples of how the Ferengi or the Klingons have influenced Federation culture? We've already established how the Federation influenced those two powers, so let's see what the other side of the coin.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Well, if it's a two-way exchange of ideas, can we think of any examples of how the Ferengi or the Klingons have influenced Federation culture? We've already established how the Federation influenced those two powers, so let's see what the other side of the coin.

Like Sci, "the 'exchange of ideas' is not what you actually criticise - you don't like the fact that this 'exchange of ideas' is SO EFFICIENT in spreading Federation values.
As I said, perhaps Federation values just make sense."

To detail:
The Federation citizenry/the Federation analysed the ferengi and klingon values - and decided that they prefer their own.
And, without coercion, the ferengi analysed Federation values - and many/most of them decided these values are better than traditional ferengi values.

Better according to what criterion? Quality of life, perhaps.
Perhaps Federation-like values allow for a better/happier and more prosperous life for more people in a given society.

You see, there IS a two-way exchange of ideas. It's just that the Federation values/ideas are more convincing.

 

[Penta]

Did they, or did limited subsets of their elites?

That's something we've never had particularly explored, I think - not through canon Trek, anyway.

In ther Ferengi case, I never got the impression it was much more than something imposed from top-down. It can't really be called a "cultural conversation", thus.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Did they, or did limited subsets of their elites?

That's something we've never had particularly explored, I think - not through canon Trek, anyway.

In ther Ferengi case, I never got the impression it was much more than something imposed from top-down. It can't really be called a "cultural conversation", thus.

It's a certainty that the ferengi "females", at the very least, welcomed and supported the changes in ferengi society.

And, considering the improved work and life conditions (mentioned by Quark on multiple occasions), it's quite likely that most of the rest of ferengi society embraced the reforms, as well.

 

[PrimeDirective]

No matter how hard the naysayers try, they will never convince anyone on here that the Federation is a militaristic, imperialistic, and expationistic government. The truth is that it's the most honorable and humanitarian alliance the Trek universe has ever seen, or will ever see come into existance. Unless the Tholians and the Romulans(Star Empire) radically change their views on others, not even the Typhon Pact will be worthy of comparison with the values of the Federation.

 

[David cgc]

Unless the Tholians and the Romulans(Star Empire) radically change their views on others, not even the Typhon Pact will be worthy of comparison with the values of the Federation.

And they will, because that's what happens when you interact with the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

Unless the Tholians and the Romulans(Star Empire) radically change their views on others, not even the Typhon Pact will be worthy of comparison with the values of the Federation.

Ahh, but the very fact that they chose to join the Typhon Pact -- to cooperate with "others" for mutual benefit -- shows that their views are already starting to change. They've taken the first step.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Well, if it's a two-way exchange of ideas, can we think of any examples of how the Ferengi or the Klingons have influenced Federation culture?

How about this: every Starfleet officer on Deep Space Nine is evidently addicted to raktajino, which is a Klingon beverage. I know, it's a minor point, but the cultural "contamination" is not entirely one-sided.

Only about 98% one-sided.

 

[PrimeDirective]

The Romulans and the Tholians didn't come together to be a peaceful and humanitarian government. They joined because they know that together they are more powerful(politically and militarilly), to fulfill their expantionistic and oppressive agendas.

 

[DBall]

Unless the Tholians and the Romulans(Star Empire) radically change their views on others, not even the Typhon Pact will be worthy of comparison with the values of the Federation.

Ahh, but the very fact that they chose to join the Typhon Pact -- to cooperate with "others" for mutual benefit -- shows that their views are already starting to change. They've taken the first step.

The Romulans and the Tholians didn't come together to be a peaceful and humanitarian government. They joined because they know that together they are more powerful(politically and militarilly), to fulfill their expantionistic and oppressive agendas.

I gotta agree with Prime here... nothing in the way the Pact started or the races that joined is screaming 'harmony' to me. Seems more like a 'choosing sides to start a war' kind of agreement. Tholians, Romulans, Kishaya... I doubt they got together to sing kumbaya... especially when they all seem to have scores to setting with members of the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

I gotta agree with Prime here... nothing in the way the Pact started or the races that joined is screaming 'harmony' to me. Seems more like a 'choosing sides to start a war' kind of agreement. Tholians, Romulans, Kishaya... I doubt they got together to sing kumbaya... especially when they all seem to have scores to setting with members of the Federation.

Why do people keep thinking that?? Why is it so hard for some people to get past this stereotype that every rival power must be warmongering aggressors? I'm going to remind you of what's been pointed out about fifty times on this forum by now: that when the Kinshaya and the Tholians went off on aggressive campaigns of their own, the rest of the Typhon Pact members stopped them. Read A Singular Destiny -- it's right there. The first official action of the Typhon Pact was to halt the aggressive actions of two of its members. They're not interested in starting a war. They're not out for conquest. They're just tired of being outmuscled by the superpower of the quadrant and want to be strong enough politically and economically to be independent of the Federation's dominance. Yes, they want to compete with the Federation -- politically, economically, socially, ideologically. That doesn't mean they want to start a shooting war. That's not the only way nations can compete with one another.