Photonic torpedoes

[Herbert1]

In another topic we are discussing Spock's description of the Earth-Romulan War in "Balance of Terror" in which he describes the use of "primitive atomic weapons." For years we have presumed that they were likely hydrogen bombs or other 1960s era nuclear weapons.

I was curious if the warhead in a photonic torpedo uses antimatter to "trigger" a nuclear explosion like the theoretical antimatter-catalyzed nuclear weapon. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_bomb

So that we can reconcile Spock's description of "primitive atomic weapons" and the photonic torpedo shown in Star Trek: Enterprise?

Or if the photonic torpedo shown in Star Trek: Enterprise should be considered a "pure" antimatter weapon like the photon torpedo has been described in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual?

 

[Mytran]

Given that early TOS didn't use photon torpedoes but delayed-action phaser blasts, I think that "photonic torpedoes" should be considered distinct from photon torpedoes.

 

[The Badger]

It's a plausible idea, and I certainly prefer it to the televised Enterprise portrayal of technology that was exactly the same as in other Trek, only with a slightly different name.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Unless you believe as I do that the ENT timeline is an alternate timeline created by Picard's interference with First Contact, in which case Spock's description is no longer valid.

Since even if you buy that explanation about "photonic torpedoes" being nuclear devices, we already know the Romulans have more advanced weapons, as do Earth's assorted allies. There's also the line about "primitive space vessels that allowed no quarter, no prisoners, nor were there even ship-to-ship visual communications," all of which were blatantly contradicted in the first episode of ENT, so that line has become dated anyway. Really, the problem is the Trekiverse is already a different place than it was when Balance of Terror was filmed. To quote another Vulcan scientist, "It was a different time, then: there were fewer warp-capable species." Adding people like the andorians, the tellarites, the Rigelians, the Malurians, and other alien-of-the-week races throws BoT's description by the wayside and the Earth-Romulan War almost HAS to be something different than the way it's described.

 

[PrimeDirective]

The only difference I see between a photonic and photon torpedo, is that the photon torpedo is the result of advances in the understanding of how to harness power from an atom, the same with the quantum torpedo used in the 24th century. The more advanced the torpedo is, the deeper the source of power inside the atom is.

 

[Myasishchev]

In another topic we are discussing Spock's description of the Earth-Romulan War in "Balance of Terror" in which he describes the use of "primitive atomic weapons." For years we have presumed that they were likely hydrogen bombs or other 1960s era nuclear weapons.

I was curious if the warhead in a photonic torpedo uses antimatter to "trigger" a nuclear explosion like the theoretical antimatter-catalyzed nuclear weapon. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_bomb

Timo and I had a discussion on these lines once, where (iirc) we agreed that there's no reason in the world why 24th century folks should not use hydrogen or deuterium fusion "boosters" in their pho-torps (tritium, of course, decays, so it might not be suitable, but they've got deuterium just laying around).

As for Enterprise weaponry, newtype's right: it's just completely incompatible with Balance of Terror.

So that we can reconcile Spock's description of "primitive atomic weapons" and the photonic torpedo shown in Star Trek: Enterprise?

1. Spock is wrong.
2. The holodeck program that was ST: ENT was wrong, and used an anachronism to describe nuclear weapons.

Actually, when you get right down to it, the sheer fact that antimatter is present at all in Enterprise invalidates Balance of Terror. In the final analysis, the antimatter-driven NX-01 itself is a photon torpedo, just a really large, crew-served one. If you have an antimatter propulsion system, you already have an antimatter bomb, because antimatter is immediately, effortlessly weaponizable. All you have to do is turn off the magnetic field holding it in a vacuum.

 

[T'Girl]

Even if Earth and her allies were using high yield, focused energy, fission-fusion weapons the size of your left leg, Spock still might describe them as "primative."

Looking backwards at the weapons used just prior to the first world war, they were well thought out devices, the product of generations of engineered killing evolution. From current view point, primative. The likely mass produced warships built for the Romulan War were the best that the technology of the 22nd century could create. Earth and (unseen?) allies used them to beat back the Romulans and their pretty green warbirds.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Even if Earth and her allies were using high yield, focused energy, fission-fusion weapons the size of your left leg, Spock still might describe them as "primative."

But they're not, though. They're using particle beam weapons and antimatter warheads, "phase pulse" weapons and similar types of directed-energy weapons as are still in use a hundred years later (and had evidently been in use for a hundred years prior to that). Their "primitive space vessels" were anything but, again considering that most of the principle Starfleet technologies were already in use by other races the day Zephram Cochrane launched his first flight.

Looking backwards at the weapons used just prior to the first world war, they were well thought out devices, the product of generations of engineered killing evolution. From current view point, primative.

From current point of view, OLD. But while a Model 92 Winchester rifle may not be as powerful or as sophisticated as an M4 Carbine "primitive by our standards" doesn't really apply. "Old" probably applies, as when the Romulans in BoT refer to "old style nuclear warheads" (the type of thing that might still be in use for self-destruct) but something primitive is something that would no longer be effective in a modern setting. Like a muzzle-loading rifle or a crossbow or something.

Anyway, the implication in BoT is that the galaxy had changed ALOT since the Earth-Romulan War and that the entire battlefield had been transformed by newer weapons. Since the background history of the Federation and the influence of Vulcan had not been thought out at the time, this is no longer consistent with the rest of Trek canon where we found out that the galaxy really hasn't changed that much in a hundred years.

The likely mass produced warships built for the Romulan War were the best that the technology of the 22nd century could create. Earth and (unseen?) allies used them to beat back the Romulans and their pretty green warbirds.

But Earth's allies at the time already included the Andorians and Vulcans, whose space forces were already superior to Starfleet in almost every way. Arguably it was protection against the Romulans that helped catalyze the Federation in the first place, in which case the massive multi-planet fleet from Babel/United would be just a taste of the sort of activity that went on during the war. Even if Starfleet couldn't afford to build anything more sophisticated than DY-100s with warp drives attached, the Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites didn't have this problem (and even if Earth did, simple necessity would have required their buying better ships from someone else).

 

[Timo]

Given that early TOS didn't use photon torpedoes but delayed-action phaser blasts, I think that "photonic torpedoes" should be considered distinct from photon torpedoes.

I don't really think that a division into "early TOS" and "late TOS" can be made to work here. There's no indication that the later use of photon torpedoes was the result of some sort of a refit to the ship, nor that photon torpedoes in later TOS would be new weapons, unfamiliar to our heroes. Indeed, very few TOS technologies or concepts are indicated to be new to our heroes. The two exceptions are invisibility devices in "Balance of Terror" and fully automated starships in "The Ultimate Computer" - and the latter episode actually features an old, long since automated ship as a plot point!

From current point of view, OLD. But while a Model 92 Winchester rifle may not be as powerful or as sophisticated as an M4 Carbine "primitive by our standards" doesn't really apply.

I'd argue quite the opposite. After all, Spock takes the extra care to say that the old technologies are primitive only "by our standards", not in absolute terms. And indeed an average WWI sidearm, machine gun, aircraft or tank would be based on long-lasting tactical or engineering principles yet still be distressingly primitive, with only a few glaring exceptions where little improvement has been deemed worth the while in the past century.

Since the background history of the Federation and the influence of Vulcan had not been thought out at the time, this is no longer consistent with the rest of Trek canon where we found out that the galaxy really hasn't changed that much in a hundred years.

Which is only logical, as TOS already did away with any "clean slate" ideas of the galactic environment and introduced a plethora of advanced predecessors to the current players. Simple linear development doesn't sound plausible in such a setup.

However, there's nothing to stop incremental local improvements from happening. And certainly ENT in "In a Mirror, Darkly" makes a valiant if belated attempt to show that 23rd century phasers, torpedoes, warp engines and shielding devices are worlds apart from 22nd century phasers, torpedoes, warp engines and shielding devices.

Really, the only device we truly see unchanged between the two centuries is the transporter - and nobody ever said it was new or better in TOS, or inferior in ENT. If not for "Daedalus", we could have assumed it was a stagnated, already perfected technology bought off the alien shelves. And even after "Daedalus", we're left wondering how much Erickson really invented, and how much he just took credit for.

The other technologies appear to remain the same in principle, but simply become more potent as the century passes. Which nicely fits the definition of "by our standards, primitive"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Given that early TOS didn't use photon torpedoes but delayed-action phaser blasts, I think that "photonic torpedoes" should be considered distinct from photon torpedoes.

I don't really think that a division into "early TOS" and "late TOS" can be made to work here. There's no indication that the later use of photon torpedoes was the result of some sort of a refit to the ship, nor that photon torpedoes in later TOS would be new weapons, unfamiliar to our heroes

I agree, but what I actually had in mind was that the "delayed action" phasers were simply renamed in-universe to prevent confusion. After all, the special fx is just the same, so why shouldn't they be the same weapon?

From Memory Alpha:

Even as late as Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Andrew Probert did not envision the photon torpedo to be a capsule, as he says in his 2005 Trekplace interview: "I envisioned them as what we saw during the TV era, they were glowing globs of plasma or some sort of energy. They weren't giant capsules. I envision them as big, glowy, dangerous blobs of... scariness."

It is interesting to conjecture what would have happened if they had appeared in an episode in the manner you suggested. But what sort of plot development would warrant it? A change to the yield needn't be shown - a line of dialogue would suffice. A TWOK coffin capsule would probably be just that - a capsule, not a reconfigured PT casing. In fact, there were only two real reasons that the TWOK capsules were introduced in their solid form:
1) The coffin capsule (comparison dealt with above)
2) The dramatic WWII torpedo launching scene, complete with crewmen lifting the grates up by hand! I'm pretty sure that this sort of scene just wouldn't appear in TOS.

A final thought:
The TMP Enterprise's PT launchers are large and prominent; there's nothing remotely similar on the original. Might this be because "capsule" style PTs are one of the innovations introduced during the refit? While this innovation does require the ship to now store physical cases, the advantage of a computer controlled guidence system certainly seems a reasonable price to pay for the encapsulation of "big, glowy, dangerous blobs of scariness."

 

[PrimeDirective]

I think that in the near future, humanity will have enough understanding of physics(regular and quantum), to create photonic torpedoes like the ones seen in later episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise. "We shall bodly go where no one has gone before."

 

[Myasishchev]

Heck, we more or less have the understanding to build photon torpedoes in the present.

 

[PrimeDirective]

I hope that we use them for defense, not to go looking for trouble on our world or in the galaxy(once we have warp-capable starships).

 

[Timo]

The dramatic WWII torpedo launching scene, complete with crewmen lifting the grates up by hand! I'm pretty sure that this sort of scene just wouldn't appear in TOS.

Well, TOS did give us a scene where a WWII style gunnery command center was shown. A seemingly illogical addition of a man into the loop instead of an automated system where Sulu's keypress fires the phasers was deemed dramatically satisfying there; the same sort of dramatic rationale could have given us a torpedo launcher set.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

I suppose the difference I had in mind was that the Phaser Control Room actually had a function in the plot (Spock saves Stiles, who overcomes his racism), whereas the PT room in TWOK was pretty much window dressing (with excessive manual operations, I might add).

 

[blssdwlf]

I was thinking that the man in the loop phaser control room(s) were just redundancy during combat in "Balance of Terror" (since they were going for the WW2 model apparently.) If the bridge got blown up, the phasers could still be fired. That seems to be the "default" mode, but apparently the ship could also fire phasers when no phaser crews were present ala "The Doomsday Machine". Perhaps the reason why in "Balance Of Terror" that the bridge couldn't over-ride the forward Phaser Control Room was maybe related that fire that Spock had to put out and fix (and/or the switch to allow override from the bridge was not flipped in the phaser control room because they were both incapacitated by the coolant)?

As far as the photon torpedoes go, regardless of whether they were in casings or just scary blobs, they did turn to hit Nomad in "The Changeling" so perhaps very smart scary blobs

My completely non-canon pet theory for the photon torpedoes in-universe: the Enterprise was meant originally to be an all phaser gun ship. After losing phasers in "Balance of Terror", Kirk requested a secondary weapon to be installed and the photon torpedo launchers got added to the underside of the primary hull, replacing the EVA center. In TMP the EVA center came back to the same space when the torp launchers were moved closer to the antimatter source.

As far as the photonic torpedoes, they probably were the Federation's way of avoiding a trademark/patent lawsuit from the Klingons, who according to ST:Enterprise had the name "photon torpedo" first I wonder does ST:E work as a prequel to TNG? TOS doesn't fit very well into the TNG+ continuity so could just be its own universe, IMHO. But wasn't there an episode in DS9 that stated when (and perhaps who?) developed photon torpedoes?

 

[Mytran]

...As far as the photon torpedoes go, regardless of whether they were in casings or just scary blobs, they did turn to hit Nomad in "The Changeling" so perhaps very smart scary blobs...

I must admit, I don't remember them changing course! From the episode:

SULU: Photon torpedoes armed, sir.
KIRK: Has the target changed location, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: No, sir. Holding steady.
KIRK: Ready photon torpedo number two, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Ready, sir.
KIRK: Fire.
SULU: Torpedo away. (a pause, then a flash) Direct hit.
SPOCK: No effect. Target absorbed full energy of our torpedo.

In fact, it sounds like the target had to be in a given location before a PT could be fired.

BTW, I like your reasoning about the BOT fire control room, the need for secondary weapons and so forth. That makes a lot of sense!

 

[Timo]

In "Balance of Terror", it's rather remarkable that the phasers overheat after a few shots ("Control circuit overload"), and our heroes seem to think this a mundane event.

If phasers at the time were indeed such fragile and finicky devices, it would only make sense that there would be lots of men-in-the-loop, lots of points where dedicated experts could abort the firing of phasers so that these deathtrap weapons don't pose a hazard to the firing ship. Even if Sulu wanted to fire phasers, the people down at Phaser Control could veto him whenever their gauges were redlining.

Several notable warships of yore have gone to battle with such dangerously faulty main weapons - a notorious case in point HMS Prince of Wales, which lost her consort Hood to the Bismarck and had to withdraw because the guns of the British battleship were too novel and too unreliable (there were hordes of civilian technicians remaining aboard the battleship during this engagement, tending to the finicky guns!).

One might thus argue that phasers, not photon torpedoes, were the new thing aboard Kirk's ship. This would perhaps be better in keeping with Spock's comments on the century-old war, too: that war had featured "atomic weapons" which sound like fission or fusion missiles, the predecessors of Kirk's torpedoes, but there was no mention of beam weapons having been used back then.

Or one might argue that the phaser model aboard Kirk's ship was particularly untrustworthy when fired in this rare "proximity blast" mode. In all circumstances, the phaser control room would be in the loop for preparing and firing the guns, but only during proximity mode would the foreman of the phaser control team directly exercise his authority to abort or delay a phaser firing.

On the issue of whether TOS photon torpedoes could maneuver, they are said to be "locked on" during their first use in "Arena". That's an expression commonly used in connection with tracking weapons, but one not AFAIK used when a "dumb" weapon's launch systems are tracking the enemy for an accurate unguided shot. In the case of WWII unguided weapons such as torps or guns, the launch systems wouldn't "lock on" - they would be "tracking" and "computing" but without the sort of feedback loop that enables true guided weapons to hold onto a maneuvering target. So "Arena" is not proof positive that torpedoes can track.

"A Taste of Armageddon" mentions torpedo bombardment of a ground installation, where guidance is not an issue (but the fact that torpedoes can yet full phasers cannot be fired when shields are up is!). "Errand of Mercy" shows a close range Klingon torpedo attack where guidance again isn't an issue. "The Changeling" shows a torpedo scoring a "direct hit" on a target that's smaller than yer average gnome, though, more or less dictating very precise guidance. After all, the ship had lost maneuvering power, so it would be up to the torpedo's maneuvering systems to take up the slack.

"Journey to Babel" features torpedo spreads that may or may not be guided: the agile target evades them in any case. In "Obsession", the target is immune to torpedo spreads (or perhaps just agile?). In "Elaan of Troyius", Kirk pivots the ship at warp and then fires a torp spread; the ship does act as an aiming device, but the massive speed differential would seem to require some guidance on the part of the torpedoes, too.

Rather inconclusive, then. But while it's theoretically and practically possible to hit a 100m ship moving at 12 knots from 5,000 meters with an unguided torpedo, it shouldn't be even theoretically possible to hit a 100m ship moving at a high percentage of lightspeed from half a lightsecond away unless your torpedo were guided and maneuverable!

Also, our heroes were subjected to missile weapon attacks several times, and every time there was time to maneuver, yet this was not enough to avoid getting hit. Obviously, the interstellar norm for the day was that torpedo-style weapons did track. Why would Starfleet photon torpedoes be incapable of holding up to this standard? It's not as if they could compensate by sheer speed - the Romulan plasma-cloud missile was faster, easily keeping up when Kirk's ship was fleeing at "emergency warp"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Jack Riley]

I was thinking that the man in the loop phaser control room(s) were just redundancy during combat in "Balance of Terror" (since they were going for the WW2 model apparently.) If the bridge got blown up, the phasers could still be fired. That seems to be the "default" mode, but apparently the ship could also fire phasers when no phaser crews were present ala "The Doomsday Machine". Perhaps the reason why in "Balance Of Terror" that the bridge couldn't over-ride the forward Phaser Control Room was maybe related that fire that Spock had to put out and fix (and/or the switch to allow override from the bridge was not flipped in the phaser control room because they were both incapacitated by the coolant)?

That is my take too. The phaser control room was a back up system to the main phasers firing control that Sulu activated. We know that the phasers were damaged in BoT when Sulu laments that if he could just get one phaser to work to blow the Romulan's plasma bolt (for lack of a better word). This would necessitate the use of the back up phaser fire control. Since the phasers weren't working at all at this point, it didn't really matter, but it is possible that Sulu's fire controls were cut and therefore not able to fire phasers.

We also have the line when the phaser coolant begins to link where Kirk orders the phasers fired, doesn't get a response since Stiles is unconscious, and Kirk is yelling over the intercom system for Stiles to fire. Spock goes back and fires from the backup fire control system.

Just a possibility that seems to fit the facts.

YMMV.

 

[Saquist]

The only difference I see between a photonic and photon torpedo, is that the photon torpedo is the result of advances in the understanding of how to harness power from an atom, the same with the quantum torpedo used in the 24th century. The more advanced the torpedo is, the deeper the source of power inside the atom is.

That's the real problem. there is NO change

They're the same size as torpedoes with not difference in shape. They glow and take out ships...

No change in 250 years of complex weapon making...absurd.