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Why do they always miss the first shot?

muzzleflash

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
What's always bugged me about Trek is when some unseen foe fires the first shot at our heroes and misses.

Come on! Here is this person who we assume is competent with energy weapon, which is already inherently extremely accurate, who has the element of surprise and time which he could use to take an accurate shot, but instead misses.

*sigh*

I also like how, when engaged in a firefight, people will fire off a few poorly aimed shots despite the fact that they are in not immediate danger at the time of firing, then proceed to duck behind cover, again, even though nobody is shooting at them when they could easily suppress/disable the enemy if they weren't so stupid.

Who writes these ridiculous action sequences in Trek?
 
I have always found ground combat (hand-to-hand/melee as well as ranged) to be one of the areas in which Trek is weakest. There are some examples of good sequences of this nature (the big fight at the end of "The Siege of AR-558" comes to mind... the insane lack of tactical thinking on both sides that led to that fight is another matter), but even then, they often don't stack up too well against combat scenes from most other shows/movies. And there are an awful lot of bad ones. :lol:

The "Hit! Block! PAUSE!" choreography present in most hand-to-hand fight scenes is another Trek combat staple that bugs the hell out of me.

Basically, I tend to lump most of these types of scenes into the "If Trek were 'real life', that scene wouldn't have gone quite the way we saw on-screen" category.
 
If Trek were real life, ship to ship combat would be fought by computer at speeds so fast that the passengers wouldn't even know what had happened until they were victorious or defeated.
 
The BoP didn't miss the Grissom on the first shot. No sir.
Indeed not. And while we're on the subject of things that make no sense: one shot? I don't care if it's a "science vessel". If the thing can be obliterated, with full shields, by a single shot from a Bird of Prey (after Krudge had ordered the gunner NOT to destroy it!), it shouldn't be in active service.

That said, I assume the OP was referring specifically to ground-based ranged combat.
If Trek were real life, ship to ship combat would be fought by computer at speeds so fast that the passengers wouldn't even know what had happened until they were victorious or defeated.
Well, perhaps. But that falls into the category of "It may be more realistic this way, but it would sap any drama from these scenes and make them quite boring." So it's excepted. :D

Changing the nature of hand-to-hand combat scenes so that it no longer appears that one or two real-life military veterans or practiced martial artists could blow through hordes of Starfleet officers, Klingons, and Jem'Hadar without breaking a sweat, on the other hand, wouldn't compromise the drama.
 
Indeed not. And while we're on the subject of things that make no sense: one shot? I don't care if it's a "science vessel". If the thing can be obliterated, with full shields, by a single shot from a Bird of Prey (after Kruge had ordered the gunner NOT to destroy it!), it shouldn't be in active service.

Most warships can be killed with a single shot today. It's just that one needs a big shot... But one knows this in advance, and indeed prepares a sufficiently big shot.

That said, I assume the OP was referring specifically to ground-based ranged combat.

Seems so. And it's noteworthy that in Star Trek space combat, it is extremely rare for anybody to miss. 100% hit rate is more the norm than an exception. Although one might argue that this is because these folks see no advantage in taking shots that have less than 100% odds of hitting. After all, when shields are up, Star Trek starships usually don't have to fear the first hit.

Except when the enemy comes prepared, and makes the first hit count, of course. But here we must note that the enemy in Star Trek seldom aims for an immediate kill. A fight between two starships is usually about something else than merely removing the opponent from existence... Which also goes a long way in explaining why starships don't fight on automatic.

...Hell, when they do, or can be expected to do, the result indeed is more devastating. In TNG, ships could slug it out for several minutes because there was a logical, dramatic reason for not destroying the opponent outright. In DS9, ships at war may die in seconds.

Changing the nature of hand-to-hand combat scenes so that it no longer appears that one or two real-life military veterans or practiced martial artists could blow through hordes of Starfleet officers, Klingons, and Jem'Hadar without breaking a sweat, on the other hand, wouldn't compromise the drama.

It might compromise the photography, though. One can't move too fast, or hide too well, or act too unexpectedly, if one hopes to remain cinematographically interesting.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The BoP didn't miss the Grissom on the first shot. No sir.
Indeed not. And while we're on the subject of things that make no sense: one shot? I don't care if it's a "science vessel". If the thing can be obliterated, with full shields, by a single shot from a Bird of Prey (after Krudge had ordered the gunner NOT to destroy it!), it shouldn't be in active service.

I had no problem with that (I wouldn't have any problem with a pho-torp destroying a Connie, if the Connie wasn't ready). The problem with the Grissom was that it was operating, by itself, in a system that had been declared off limits. I mean, in the Federation, are military quarantines enforced by the honor system?

That said, I assume the OP was referring specifically to ground-based ranged combat.
Oh.

Well, yeah, that's usually pretty terrible. Purely speculating, the actors seem to be bad shots--or to be directed to take bad shots--so that's what the VFX people have to work with. Perhaps additionally, the directors may or may not just be using the first takes.

The really weird thing is that a phaser ought to be its own aiming system. We've seen them operate for cycles of several seconds with no ill effects to the mechanisms. It's not very hard to track a laser pointer onto a target, even if the beam misses it at first; so why is it hard to track a phaser?

Apropos of nothing, but related to goofy Trek hand-to-hand combat scenes, they're pretty bad but Babylon 5 challenges them. I was watching that the other day, and some bar brawl, every random person appears to know kung-fu. Spontaneous, inebriated, poorly photographed kung-fu is really kind of hilarious to watch.
 
Who writes these ridiculous action sequences in Trek?

This is not unique to Star Trek, nor did it originate with Star Trek.

There's a reason they call it the "Stormtrooper Effect."
Perhaps, but since TOS precedes Star Wars, you can't really say it originated with the latter. That said, I wouldn't assume that Star Trek was the first show or movie (sci-fi or otherwise) with this issue, either. And your point is taken, as well, in that Stormtroopers do seem to suck a lot. :vulcan:
Most warships can be killed with a single shot today. It's just that one needs a big shot... But one knows this in advance, and indeed prepares a sufficiently big shot.
Warships today don't have shields. And the Klingons certainly weren't intentionally preparing a "sufficiently big shot", since they were trying to cripple, not destroy, the Grissom.
...Hell, when they do, or can be expected to do, the result indeed is more devastating. In TNG, ships could slug it out for several minutes because there was a logical, dramatic reason for not destroying the opponent outright. In DS9, ships at war may die in seconds.
But it's much easier in a wartime scenario to assume - when one sees a ship go down after only one or a few hits - that there are other factors involved: other hits previously taken from other enemy vessels, the ship has been in combat for some time and some damage wasn't fully repaired before the engagement in which the ship goes down, etc. That said, I did find that every now and then, a ship would blow up during a DS9 battle scene a bit TOO quickly, even with the wartime circumstances in mind. And this wasn't confined to one side or the other, either.
It might compromise the photography, though. One can't move too fast, or hide too well, or act too unexpectedly, if one hopes to remain cinematographically interesting.
I dunno... that would work if there weren't other shows and movies in which hand-to-hand looks MUCH better/more realistic, yet don't suffer in the way you are talking about. To be fair, though, even TNG and DS9 are old enough that the technology and technique of filming have progressed since they were made. Making it look better would no doubt be a LOT easier now than in, say, 1995.


I had no problem with that (I wouldn't have any problem with a pho-torp destroying a Connie, if the Connie wasn't ready). The problem with the Grissom was that it was operating, by itself, in a system that had been declared off limits. I mean, in the Federation, are military quarantines enforced by the honor system?
You bring up an interesting point about the Grissom's location, actually. But I still don't buy the one-hit-kill.

The Grissom had shields up. This was never stated, but they had plenty of time from the moment the BoP appeared to the moment it fired, so if the shields weren't up, then the ship was crewed by idiots. I'm going with the shields being up.

This is not a civilian vessel, a freighter, or a transport ship. This is a Federation starship, crewed by Starfleet officers. The fact that it's a science ship can indicate a lesser defensive capability than, say, a Constitution-class cruiser. Far less, perhaps. But not THAT much less. Not so much that it literally would have zero chance of surviving an encounter with the small, 12-man crew variety of Bird of Prey (hardly the heaviest hitter among Klingon ships). And again, the Klingon gunner had been ordered NOT to destroy the ship! So if anything, he was attempting to fire a shot that wouldn't be a one hit kill.

The Oberth-class in general always seemed ridiculously weak, though. Practically every time a ship of this class showed up in TNG, it was destroyed, or the entire crew was killed by some radiation or phenomenon, or some such.
Well, yeah, that's usually pretty terrible. Purely speculating, the actors seem to be bad shots--or to be directed to take bad shots--so that's what the VFX people have to work with. Perhaps additionally, the directors may or may not just be using the first takes.
I wouldn't think it would be THAT hard to get them to just aim toward other actors, if they really wanted them to. I think a lot of it boiled down to wanting fight scenes to stretch on for a certain amount of time, and thus not too many people on either side can go down, but their choreography just wasn't up to doing that and making it look believable. Whatever the cause, the end result looked pretty bad more often than not.
The really weird thing is that a phaser ought to be its own aiming system. We've seen them operate for cycles of several seconds with no ill effects to the mechanisms. It's not very hard to track a laser pointer onto a target, even if the beam misses it at first; so why is it hard to track a phaser?
Well, there may be some property of phasers (and disruptors) that makes this impractical. Though such a limitation would be hard to reconcile with the long, extended single beams we've seen, as you point out. So I dunno. Best solution going forward may be to stick with pulses for hand held weapons (as they did with the rifles in the latter three TNG movies; just make it so hand phasers make the switch from beam to pulse type - everyone's phasers, and disruptors too, not just Starfleet - and throw in some technobabble reason why they are better that way. Then we can't ask why they don't aim in the manner you suggest. :D)

Not that we're likely to see any more 24th century TV shows or movies, and in Abrams' movie, all the hand-held weapons already DO fire pulses instead of beams, so "going forward" may be moot, but you get what I'm saying.
Apropos of nothing, but related to goofy Trek hand-to-hand combat scenes, they're pretty bad but Babylon 5 challenges them. I was watching that the other day, and some bar brawl, every random person appears to know kung-fu. Spontaneous, inebriated, poorly photographed kung-fu is really kind of hilarious to watch.
Oh god, I remember that. They did scenes like that a couple of times, as I recall. I'm not sure what's worse, in the end: the Trek way (people who are supposedly well-trained in close combat and SHOULD look like they are good fighters, yet look like imbeciles who couldn't outfight a blind Pakled), or the B5 way (all these random civilians are badass - yet REALLY badly choreographed - martial arts masters.) :lol:
 
Who writes these ridiculous action sequences in Trek?

This is not unique to Star Trek, nor did it originate with Star Trek.

There's a reason they call it the "Stormtrooper Effect."
Perhaps, but since TOS precedes Star Wars, you can't really say it originated with the latter. That said, I wouldn't assume that Star Trek was the first show or movie (sci-fi or otherwise) with this issue, either. And your point is taken, as well, in that Stormtroopers do seem to suck a lot. :vulcan:

I wasn't actually trying to say it originated with Star Wars, just that it didn't originate with Star Trek.

I called it the "Stormtrooper Effect" since that is one of the popular nicknames of poor marksmanship.
 
Well, there may be some property of phasers (and disruptors) that makes this impractical.

Semi-seriously, there's a reason to argue for exactly this.

Phaser beams don't have a specific speed. Instead, they demonstrate a specific, consistent travel time that is independent of distance. That is, it always takes approximately three frames of film to get the beam from the emitter to the target, regardless of the distance between emitter and target (because that looks good on film).

This might be interpreted as the phaser creating a "channel" of some sort between the emitter and the target, after which the destructive energies travel across that channel like a lightning bolt travels through an ionized path. Essentially, a phaser might create a small wormhole-like phenomenon for channeling destruction - and once the receiving end of that wormhole is created, it's nigh-impossible to move it. So the beam cannot be turned or otherwise re-aimed much while it's on, because it's not really a beam as much as it's a manifestation of a channel...

Of course, the far end could and would be established as moving - more exactly, it would be established as having a specific state of motion, one that would track the target's last observed flightpath. But that state of motion could not be altered afterwards, not without turning off the beam and starting anew. Thus, we could get solid hits, or solid misses, or a sweeping arc that starts as a miss, then becomes a hit yet fails to lock on and goes on sweeping.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you hit your opponent on the first shot, the scene is over. So you have to miss in order to build drama.
 
The "Bad guys can't shoot" thing is actually a feature of TNG and later Trek. In TOS and the TOS films, there was never a problem with the bad guys MISSING the target, the problem was the bad guys would take one in the teeth before they had a chance to pull the trigger.

Notable examples include:
- Spock's Brain (Kirk quick-draws on one of the space chicks)
- Errand of Mercy (Kirk and Spock snipe a pair of guards with hand phasers)
- Friday's Child (Klingon vaporizes the chief and is immediately nailed in the guts by a boomerang)
- TWOK (Trigger-Happy Capt. Jorel vaporizes one of the scientists)
- TSFS (Kruge blows away his gunner; Kirk blows away one of Kruge's men as he tries to draw a disruptor on him)
- TUC (Most of the Klingons are unprepared and get blasted before they can even draw their weapons)
- End of TUC (Sniper gets nailed by Scotty before he can kill Valeris)

The only examples I can find of phasers missing the target is TFF, and even then it's only Sybok's band of desert bums with their improvised slugthrowers who can't shoot for shit (though one of then nearly takes Sulu's head off with a bazooka, and they got some good mileage out of that gatling gun for a while). There's also "The Man Trap" where Doc Crater blows up a column of something, narrowly missing Kirk and Spock, but Crater isn't exactly an expert marksman.
 
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