kosh said WHAT!? Seriouslly?? WTF?!

[Guy Gardener]

It is basically a bit of fanservice inserted into the pilot; since JMS hadn't come up with the idea of Sinclair being Valen when "The Gathering" was made, he wanted to add a retroactive nod to the idea. The 'oh, it was Kosh's internal thoughts' is as good a handwave as any as to how it's supposed to make sense.

I often wonder what the original reasoning was for Kosh extending himself before JMS decided that Sinclair and Valen were one and the same.

Legend has it that JMS thunk up a 5 year plan in the beginning in the shower (Very Emmett Brown.) which had Sinclair doubling up as both being valen and then returning back to the future (told you.) to found the interstellar alliance and marry Delenn. Michael's "departure" forced JMS to spread the work around.

Internal dialogue?

Hodgepodge.

And we heard the internal dialogue of how many other people throughout the course of the show?

Methinks the man is back peddling.

Think what you like but the fact is that the line wasn't in the original version and was added for the TNT re-edit and it was right after that aired that JMS posted:

>So Kosh recognizes that Sinclair is the same person he knew 1000 years in
>the past as Valen; since Kosh didn't know that this wasn't really Sinclair
>(else why greet him so?) wouldn't this have given Sinclair a dangerous
>foreknowledge?

Internal dialogue...what he was thinking, his reaction.

jms

Jan

And refrigerators provide susceptible relief against atomic fallout. Sometimes even a genius can go back tot he well too many times.

Kosh is "rather" telepathic, surely he wouldn't be fooled by just a visual illusion?

Did he stick his hand out of the encounter suit, or did the Minbari assassin breach the suit? Vorlon's exposing flesh is highly out of character.

Kosh and Alkesh had been in contact, directing Delenn for the last decade.

The Triluminary?

It's Vorlon tech or Minabri tech?

 

[Harvey]

JMS oversaw the re-edited version, including the addition of that line, yes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's reminding me of River Song and the Doctor, or Bill and Ted before they learned how to play Guitar, because season one Sinclair wasn't as impressive as one would expect from Valen, especially if "Marcus" was only a fraction as magnificent a tactician and fighter as Jeff would become after a couple years on Minbarr cutting his teeth.

 

[Reverend]

He's just being polite? (Besides he still had the encounter suit on, so what would that extension have looked like to Sinclair?)

Another reason for adding the line is to, well, give Kosh something to say. Kosh in the original pilot, despite being a major plot point, never says anything at all.

Well, since it wasn't Sinclair who saw it, nothing. But to the Minbari in the changeling net I imagine it looked a lot like the glowing hand that was last seen attached to Valeria.

As for the line, yes it's a retcon, so what? I doubt anyone watching it now for the first time round will pick up on it's significance until a second viewing. As I recall, Valen isn't mentioned much at all until season 2.

It's pretty much stated in both the Gathering and later in season 1 that Kosh had to have opened his suit for the skin tab to have worked. The real question is, how did the assassin know Kosh would expose himself like that, even to Sinclair.
There's defiantly some back story there that's never been revealed. It's briefly mentioned that the assassin belonged to a clan that split from the Federation right after the war and I think JMS has said it's the same lot that took in Deathwalker. The fact that they knew of Sinclair's memory wipe and enough about Vorlon bio-chemistry to determine what would be fatally toxic very loudly suggests that one of the Grey Council was involved, perhaps a member of the wind swords themselves who shared the secret with the rest of his clan which possibly in conjunction with being caught with a Dilgar war criminal got them all booted out. I'd also but money on Sineval being a wind sword too.

 

[Kegg]

There's defiantly some back story there that's never been revealed.

Not a lot, I think. Fundamentally it's about the disatisfaction that the warrior caste had towards the ending of the war, which builds rather nicely to a certain arc in the fourth season which we all know. The specifics of the Windswords were less important, their disaffection stemmed from the same reasons the warrior caste acted as they did in season four.

Now, who the hell blew up the first three Babylon stations, that's the elephant in the room. Vaguely defined vaguely stubborn 'forces' determined not to see it get made for some reason perhaps maybe because.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Reverend, the assassin was working fro G'Kar. Dude was just a patsy no matter if he knew more about the battle of the line than his employer did.

 

[Reverend]

There's defiantly some back story there that's never been revealed.

Not a lot, I think. Fundamentally it's about the disatisfaction that the warrior caste had towards the ending of the war, which builds rather nicely to a certain arc in the fourth season which we all know. The specifics of the Windswords were less important, their disaffection stemmed from the same reasons the warrior caste acted as they did in season four.

Now, who the hell blew up the first three Babylon stations, that's the elephant in the room. Vaguely defined vaguely stubborn 'forces' determined not to see it get made for some reason perhaps maybe because.

Well I did say "some backstory", not a 1,225 page epic novel's worth of backstory. While it's true there was a consistent trend of the warrior caste becoming increasingly alienated from the other two castes following the war, the Windswords were specifically singled out as being particularly militant and even before the battle of the line, shocked the council when they started proposing the use of genocidal weapons. While they certainly shared the same dissatisfaction of the other warrior clans, they were clearly further along the curve and willing to act on it.

As far as the first three stations go, I think in it's said they were destroyed through accident and sabotage and in 'Grail' Jinxo said the first two were sabotage while B3 just "blew up". As for who was behind it, I'd say the list of suspects is pretty short. It probably wasn't the allies of the shadows as they didn't twig until B4 was completed and their attempt was anything but subtle sabotage. The prime suspects in my mind are Homeguard, Freemars and yes, the Windswords. Homeguard because they're Earth first isolationists, Freemars because anything EA is a valid target and the Windswords because the last thing they wanted was closer ties with the humans. Logically, if it had been the first two they'd have taken credit for it (and may have done regardless), so it was probably the Windswords. The only other possibility I can think of is the shadowy black ops Department Sigma that was behind Bureau 13, Earthforce Bio-weapons and seemingly IPX too, though I can't quite think of a motive beyond being bastards.

Reverend, the assassin was working fro G'Kar. Dude was just a patsy no matter if he knew more about the battle of the line than his employer did.

He wasn't working for G'Kar. While there was definite collusion going on there, G'Kar was only in it to gain some kind of obscure political advantage. Takashima was also in on it (whether she knew it or not) so it's anyone's guess as to who really instigated the plot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You can usually figure out who the instigator is by accounting at the finally tally "who benefits"?

The Vorlons and Minbari built folke hero.

G'kar almost garnered an alliance with he Minbari by proving that everyone else was too weak or untrustworthy to be counted on, then of course maybe he just wanted to get a "diplomatic team's" boots o npoint on the Vorlon Homeworld?

Londo got smpathy from being a punching bag to g'kar's wit.

The human's (back home) might have wanted to rejigger the command structure of babylon 5, because if laurel was in the psi Corps pocket, that would put them in control, even though they have always maintained that they are focused inward toward their own ssubpecies for the most part, so maybe this was Clarke setting his secret police up against the "alien menace" early on?

 

[shivkala]

It's reminding me of River Song and the Doctor, or Bill and Ted before they learned how to play Guitar, because season one Sinclair wasn't as impressive as one would expect from Valen, especially if "Marcus" was only a fraction as magnificent a tactician and fighter as Jeff would become after a couple years on Minbarr cutting his teeth.

I don't think Sinclair was supposed to be impressive. When we meet him, (if I'm remembering correctly) he's spent 10 years bouncing around from post to post, never doing anything major. I believe JMS has pointed out that EarthForce was a bit wary of him due to the time he spent onboard the Minbari ship, for which he could not account.

He definitely wasn't Earth's choice for running Babylon 5 and was only given the post because the Minbari made it a condition in their agreement to help them build the station, since the first four took up too much of Earths' resources.

His loss of memory from the "Battle of the Line" seems to have troubled him personally. At first, I think he, too, was lost, and needed a position like this to "wake him up." I wonder if O'Hare had remained on the show, if we would have seen his "evolution" from unimpressive guy to "Yeah, he could be the legendary leader of the Minbari," come across a little more.

I think his time on B5, combined with his training as a Ranger, and eventually his acceptance of the position of Entil'Zha helped him become the leader he was destined to be. I absolutely believe it was JMS' intent to have him start out as unimpressive. I also don't blame O'Hare for being a stiff actor, as I think he played the character perfectly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well it's not like he could have been a bvllet timed/timing Neo given the cardboard spfx and cheese stunts that O'Haire was a fraction as stunning as Adam West's Batman 30 years earlier... but he did knock Neroon on his ass by the last quarter of season one, when a couple years later Neroon beat Marcus to death with a metal pipe.

Hmmm?

What if all Minbari Kungfu was devised by Valen with a back door to be manifest susceptible to the natural brawling fighting style of jeffery Sinclair? minbari can't help themselves but get their ass kicked by this guy even though they fight a hundred times better than him and they're twice as strong?

 

[Brent]

I don't see any problem with Kosh saying it, /shrug, it's not like Sinclair would know what it means

The real problem I have is the hand extension thing

 

[hyzmarca]

As far as the first three stations go, I think in it's said they were destroyed through accident and sabotage and in 'Grail' Jinxo said the first two were sabotage while B3 just "blew up". As for who was behind it, I'd say the list of suspects is pretty short. It probably wasn't the allies of the shadows as they didn't twig until B4 was completed and their attempt was anything but subtle sabotage. The prime suspects in my mind are Homeguard, Freemars and yes, the Windswords. Homeguard because they're Earth first isolationists, Freemars because anything EA is a valid target and the Windswords because the last thing they wanted was closer ties with the humans. Logically, if it had been the first two they'd have taken credit for it (and may have done regardless), so it was probably the Windswords. The only other possibility I can think of is the shadowy black ops Department Sigma that was behind Bureau 13, Earthforce Bio-weapons and seemingly IPX too, though I can't quite think of a motive beyond being bastards.

Don't discount the possibility that Zathras did it. After all, history records that Babylon 4 was sent back through time, not Babylon 1 or Babylon 2. I can certainly see him quietly sabotaging Babylon stations until he finds the one that is just right.

 

[Reverend]

I'm pretty sure there were a number of fatalities when those stations were destroyed, so I seriously doubt it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's like that Rutghar Hauer movie with the big rats and that Ozzie actor who one day would be Smith in the Matrix Movies goes OCD trashing the inventory of the precinct armoury like a kid though a box of legos looking for the right block: "Gun, need a bigger gun, bigger gun, bigger gun, need a bigger gun, too fucking small, need a bigger gun."

"Babylon Station, need a bigger Babylon Station, bigger Station, need a bigger Station, too fucking small, need a bigger Babylon Station."

Hells? That's almost how Zath'ras talks.

According to the comic about Babylon 4, written by JMS, Babylon 4 was huge. Huge and Mobile. just the act of opening Jumpgates is an enormous weapon that can quarter enemy starships amidships god forbid the delight in having the option to flee which Sinclair and Sheridan never had whenever everything got super bleak.

 

[Kegg]

While they certainly shared the same dissatisfaction of the other warrior clans, they were clearly further along the curve and willing to act on it.

Generally the series was never really willing to dwell on the dark side of the Minbari for too long. Delenn is, bluntly speaking, an accomplice to attempted genocide; and it's only because of mystical mumbo-jumbo that she was able to not go through with it... but this is never really questioned as often as Londo's many transgressions, even if he never actually came to the brink as closely as she did.

As far as the first three stations go, I think in it's said they were destroyed through accident and sabotage

Yeah, but sabotage by whom? This is not even a question Babylon 5 deems worthy of mentioning let alone answering. You've suggested possible suspects, but on the show it's just forces who don't like the idea and this vague assertion is enough to consider the matter closed.

Takashima was also in on it (whether she knew it or not) so it's anyone's guess as to who really instigated the plot.

Depends whether we're to still consider her a control, as that was written out of the story and the plotline given to Talia.

 

[Reverend]

Generally the series was never really willing to dwell on the dark side of the Minbari for too long. Delenn is, bluntly speaking, an accomplice to attempted genocide; and it's only because of mystical mumbo-jumbo that she was able to not go through with it... but this is never really questioned as often as Londo's many transgressions, even if he never actually came to the brink as closely as she did.

Apples and oranges. Outside of the grey council nobody knew the extent of Delenn's culpability, even Lennier didn't know until season 4 and I wouldn't be surprised if she ever even told Sheridan. Once the ball was rolling - tipped by a single moment of overwhelming grief and rage - she regretted her words and actively sought to end the war any way possible. By the Battle of the Line she was practically begging Kosh and Ulkesh for a way out. Londo on the other hand had several chances to turn back and chose otherwise. The only real "oh crap what have I done" moment he had was during his drink with G'Kar in 'The Long Twilight Struggle', after that he was committed to his path and made no effort to put the breaks on and when they won, he was hardly magnanimous.

Yeah, but sabotage by whom? This is not even a question Babylon 5 deems worthy of mentioning let alone answering. You've suggested possible suspects, but on the show it's just forces who don't like the idea and this vague assertion is enough to consider the matter closed.

Because they really never did find out. Not all mysteries get solved and not everything needs to be tied up in a bow. History is replete with mysteries, this is one of those.
Look at it this way, if it mattered to the plot of B5 who was behind the sabotage, we'd know who they were. We don't, therefore it doesn't matter. Q.E.D.

Depends whether we're to still consider her a control, as that was written out of the story and the plotline given to Talia.

Indeed, it can go either way. On the one hand Talia shows up not long after Takashima was transferred out, so you can read into that that she was there to be Laurel's replacement, just as much as she was Lyta's. On top of that, if you look at her behaviour during 'The Gathering', those are not the actions of someone working against Sinclair while maintaining a credible façade of loyalty. That kind of duel behaviour is consistent with the way Talia's control operated. Remember in 'Spider in the Web' Control ordered Horn to take Talia out because she might have jeopardised the mission. This thing clearly wasn't much on self preservation.

 

[Mike Farley]

Yeah, but sabotage by whom?

Maybe it was Zathros. Or maybe Zathros. Or if not those two, then perhaps Zathros, he was always a bit shady.

 

[Kegg]

Outside of the grey council nobody knew the extent of Delenn's culpability,

That's not what I mean. Consider episodes like "The Long Night of Londo Mollari", where he grapples with his guilt inside his own head. We never see Delenn really do that about this issue.

Not all mysteries get solved and not everything needs to be tied up in a bow.

This isn't a great mystery, this is the sort of stock stuff JMS pulls out occasionally - like the raiders.

The previous Babylon stations needed to blow up because he wanted the show to be called Babylon 5. That they blew up is a rather major plot point brushed under the carpet with the vague 'yeah, forces who didn't like the idea.'

The universe works in mysterious ways and also ways that are awfully conveinent for the writer, this is one of the latter.

 

[Jan]

The previous Babylon stations needed to blow up because he wanted the show to be called Babylon 5. That they blew up is a rather major plot point brushed under the carpet with the vague 'yeah, forces who didn't like the idea.'

The universe works in mysterious ways and also ways that are awfully conveinent for the writer, this is one of the latter.

So the question is, given that there are only about 42 minutes available per episode exactly where would you have put that bit of unnecessary exposition? What would you have removed to make room for it? A regular complaint people make about B5 is the amount of exposition contained in dialogue. Where would you have added this and what would it have contributed to that episode?

Jan

 

[Kegg]

So the question is, given that there are only about 42 minutes available per episode exactly where would you have put that bit of unnecessary exposition? What would you have removed to make room for it? A regular complaint people make about B5 is the amount of exposition contained in dialogue. Where would you have added this and what would it have contributed to that episode?

That's easy. I would have had an episode about it. New evidence comes to light or there's fears that the same group is working again. Hell, if one wanted to say that any of the groups Reverend mentioned did it, you could outright say it was them.

Want to be more subtle? Fine, imply something in In the Beginning, get a glimpse of a ship near when the Babylon station blows up.