Enterprise arriving after the main battle over Vulcan
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I-Am-Zim
Captain
The ones you get when missiles from a gigantic 24th century Romulan mining vessel blows the crap weasels out of six 23rd century Starfleet starships in orbit above Vulcan.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Sort of. If the Abramsprise's sensors could tell that the other ships were out of warp, it would stand to reason that they could also read the radiation or energy discharges from the battle as well. Pike tells Hannity to "scan Vulcan space", then to "check for transmissions in Romulan". Apparently, the sensors were scanning Vulcan space while comms was checking for transmissions. Also, if the Abramsprise's sensors could detect the other ships and tell that they were out of warp, why couldn't they detect the gi-frakkin-normous Narada in orbit right there next to all the Fed ships? The Narada's drill disrupted transporters and communications, not sensors. This scene was basically aonther case of sensor functionality, or lack thereof, depending on what the plot called for. The problem is that some scenes contradicted each other. For example: the drill disrupted communications. However, Nero was still able to communicate perfectly well with Pike on the Abramsprise.
Totally. How else did the Enterprise know that Spock was about to be destroyed by missiles THE VERY MOMENT THEY CAME OUT OF WARP?!
Legitimate as well as accurate, certainly.
Contributes anything to better discussion or understanding? Probably not.
For all we know, the Enterprise could see more clearly (Impulse power), and jumped to warp shortly before arriving at the location of Spock and the Narada.
Another possibility would be that the Narada and the Jellyfish don't have a big planet, or massive amounts of energy thrown up by that drill, which obviously interferes with some EM frequencies for communications, and thus may provide some interference to long-range sensors.
Or, since she's at COMMUNICATIONS, and not SCIENCE, it's possible that the order to check for transmissions in Romulan was an elaboration.
A bit like: "Go to the store. See if you can get some Milk."
If the Narada's drill can hinder a lot of your enemies abilities, why the heck would you ever want to turn it off? It didn't look like having the Drill on disrupted any of the Narada's capabilities, and I seriously doubt Nero would be concerned about hitting anyone with it down the road.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
Either way, the sensors could detect the other ships. They could detect that the other ships were no longer traveling at warp. Yet they could not detect that they were under attack. Nor could they detect the Narada in orbit above Vulcan. Any way you look at it, that is an inconsistency.
She's not at communications station, she's at the "what's going on" station. Everything she does there is simply to inform everyone about what's going on, while other characters like Chekov or that other coms lady do all the communications related work.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
I didn't think about that. Hannity was the go-to girl for current info on the ship. "The Lieutenant" that Uhura relieved was actually apparently the comm officer. Then there was that other girl next to Uhura...doing...something. That's one of the things that irritated me about the iBridge. There were too many stations and too many people. The original TOS bridge was perfectly sized and perfectly manned. There were just enough stations and crew to run the ship. The iBridge is too busy. There are too many people. Too many stations. Too many glaring spotlights shining in your eyes from every...conceivabel...angle!! Aaaaaarrrrggghh!
Okay. I'm done. Cary on.
Ships at warp leave a signature, and probably some kind of sign that they are at warp. Probably easy to detect.
When there's nothing to indicate that a ship is at warp, they obviously came out of warp.
Either that, or the ships would be easily distinguishable before they reach Vulcan, against Space, but not so easy once they stop compressing spacetime in front of them, producing detectible distortions, or when masked by the presense of something like a Planet.
Another possibility: That the TIMING led to the ASSUMPTION that the ships came out of warp; after all, Sulu gives a countdown to their arrival at Vulcan. Hanity looked at a Clock and the warp calculations.
I-Am-Zim
Captain
We seem to have to make a LOT of ASSUMPTIONS to make things work in the Abramsverse.
That reminded me of something. Why do they count everything down in the Abramsverse? They count down dropping out of warp. They count down transports. They count down spacejump drops. They count down impulse bursts. Gee whiz. I don't recall that many countdowns in the whole history of Star Trek in any incarnation. It's just interesting.
That reminded me of something. Why do they count everything down in the Abramsverse? They count down dropping out of warp. They count down transports. They count down spacejump drops. They count down impulse bursts. Gee whiz. I don't recall that many countdowns in the whole history of Star Trek in any incarnation. It's just interesting.
We seem to have to make a LOT of ASSUMPTIONS to make things work in the Abramsverse.
That reminded me of something. Why do they count everything down in the Abramsverse? They count down dropping out of warp. They count down transports. They count down spacejump drops. They count down impulse bursts. Gee whiz. I don't recall that many countdowns in the whole history of Star Trek in any incarnation. It's just interesting.
I'm not making assumptions, as much as I am questioning them.
Some are making MASSIVE assumptions about sensor clarity, scanning using sensors vs. scanning communications channels, whether ships at warp are more visible/easier to detect, differences between warp and impulse sensor clarity etc., in order to counter the plausibility of the Enterprise's arrival at Vulcan, and events immediately prior and beyond this.
I am simply extrapolating some ideas as to what MAY have happened, given on-screen information, and adjusting for additional information as it comes in.
In going further, we are getting more and more theoretical, and rather than anything concrete being established, it is becoming an assumption-based-problem-followed-by theoretical-solution pattern.
We never see what the operators see, we do not know what factors may affect the kinds of information the ship's sensors can differentiate, or what additional data the other ships may transmit coming out of warp.
If things can be explained to a reasonable degree, then it is plausible.
My GENERAL IDEA works, even if we don't have all the technical answers or details.
Okay, time for Plausible Scenario - V2.
- Fleet and Enterprise on the way to Earth, as Kirk finds Uhura, does some math an figures things out as seen on screen.
- Nero, on the Narada, notes that several Federation ships are approaching while he's drilling into Vulcan.
- He aims a lot of missiles to fire so that they will hit the ships the moment they come out of warp, but before the crews have time to react to short-range sensors that would comeonline and reveal anything the moment the ships leave warp.
- On the Ships, the crews count down to arrival. Due to Warp Field interference, and limitations of long range sensors at warp, they basically get the outline of Vulcan, but little to no details.
- Ships come out of warp, just in time to see the missiles slam into the Bridge, Engineering and tear apart the hulls before even a Red Alert can be sounded.
- On Bridge, Hannity "scans" and finds no active warp signatures for the other ships, indicating that they are not at warp.
- She also notices that navigational ID is not being transmitted from the vessels, establishing that they have lost contact.
- This is confirmed with the attempt to hail one of the ships.
- Uhura takes over the Comms station, and discovers that there is no communication in Romulan, or of any other kind.
- Given Kirk's hunch, and the evidence that something is off, Pike raises shields and goes Red Alert.
- The come out at Vulcan, the same co-ordinates the Fleet were at, and end up dodging the debrit.
- Clearing the radiation and sensor noise of the debrit field, there's the Narada.
- The rest: is Alternate Reality History.
A few notes:
- During the dodging sequence, some of the wreckage hits the Enterprise, including the saucer of the Mayflower scraping some surface panels from the Port Nacelle.
- This indicates that the Shields of the Enterprise are designed for directed energy or energized particle weapons, such as Phasers and Photon Torpedoes, rather than solid objects.
- Pike also orders Auxiliary Power diverted from the Port Nacelle to forward shields during the battle.
- This is logical, since the Hydrogen Collectors are located on the Nacelles, and energy could be diverted as a temporary, immediate extra boost, to make shields stronger.
- The Missiles are not the "simple" missiles some assume them to be. During the Kelvin attack, the Kelvin's shields were rapidly depleted by the missiles, indicating that they have shield-penetrating technology, thus no "shield bubble" or other Deflector Shield effects. This is supported by reports of rapid shield depletion during both battles.
- Fleet and Enterprise on the way to Earth, as Kirk finds Uhura, does some math an figures things out as seen on screen.
- Nero, on the Narada, notes that several Federation ships are approaching while he's drilling into Vulcan.
- He aims a lot of missiles to fire so that they will hit the ships the moment they come out of warp, but before the crews have time to react to short-range sensors that would comeonline and reveal anything the moment the ships leave warp.
- On the Ships, the crews count down to arrival. Due to Warp Field interference, and limitations of long range sensors at warp, they basically get the outline of Vulcan, but little to no details.
- Ships come out of warp, just in time to see the missiles slam into the Bridge, Engineering and tear apart the hulls before even a Red Alert can be sounded.
- On Bridge, Hannity "scans" and finds no active warp signatures for the other ships, indicating that they are not at warp.
- She also notices that navigational ID is not being transmitted from the vessels, establishing that they have lost contact.
- This is confirmed with the attempt to hail one of the ships.
- Uhura takes over the Comms station, and discovers that there is no communication in Romulan, or of any other kind.
- Given Kirk's hunch, and the evidence that something is off, Pike raises shields and goes Red Alert.
- The come out at Vulcan, the same co-ordinates the Fleet were at, and end up dodging the debrit.
- Clearing the radiation and sensor noise of the debrit field, there's the Narada.
- The rest: is Alternate Reality History.
A few notes:
- During the dodging sequence, some of the wreckage hits the Enterprise, including the saucer of the Mayflower scraping some surface panels from the Port Nacelle.
- This indicates that the Shields of the Enterprise are designed for directed energy or energized particle weapons, such as Phasers and Photon Torpedoes, rather than solid objects.
- Pike also orders Auxiliary Power diverted from the Port Nacelle to forward shields during the battle.
- This is logical, since the Hydrogen Collectors are located on the Nacelles, and energy could be diverted as a temporary, immediate extra boost, to make shields stronger.
- The Missiles are not the "simple" missiles some assume them to be. During the Kelvin attack, the Kelvin's shields were rapidly depleted by the missiles, indicating that they have shield-penetrating technology, thus no "shield bubble" or other Deflector Shield effects. This is supported by reports of rapid shield depletion during both battles.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
No, the Enterprise survived because Nero wanted Spock to watch Vulcan be destroyed.
Which makes turning a main character in an idiot completely pointless.
Some of your points made me think of the image of the wreckage above Vulcan.
A little exercise in orbital dynamics. The Narada appears to be low over Vulcan, maybe a hundred miles up or less. Because it is drilling into the surface of Vulcan, it is stationary above the surface. This means the Narada isn't actually in orbit, it is hovering on it's engines, with it's drill emitter extending down into the atmosphere.
At 200 miles of altitude (twice as high) the ISS moves at 4.8 miles per second.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1204.jpg
The Enterprise emerges from the wreckage debris field at relatively slow speed and there is the Narada, again hovering not orbiting. If the Narada is hovering and the wreckage/Enterprise are in orbit, the two should have been separating at tens of thousand of miles per hour.
Amanda walk across a small plaza and sees the drilling beam, minutes later she present at the Katric ark when Spock beams down. The Narada is basically above the Katric ark.
I don't believe the fleet ever intended to drop out of warp into Vulcan orbit, their intent was to to drop into a stationary position over Vulcan's capital (the Katric ark). Just as Narada was doing, the fleet would have hovered on their engines.
Once the Narada destroyed the fleet (and their engines), the wreckage would have begun to drop towards the surface of the planet.
This tells me that the wreckage hasn't been there for very long.
How do you figure that? Whats the connection between the Enterprise arriving late to the battle (therefore missing out on getting destroyed) and Nero plopping Spock down on "D'Ltah V'gah"?
Uh, our heroes do idiotic things all the time. Like getting trapped in a wormhole with an asteroid heading towards them because somebody doesn't know jackshit about "his" ship.
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