Can you explain the health care thing to a non-american

[browney]

Hi,
I know this is a random question to ask here but I'm not from the US and don't really know anyone that well from there to explain this to me (and no doubt we don't get a ballanced story on the other side of the world).

My question is why does their seem to be so much opposition to a public heath care system in the United States?

We have what we call 'Medicare' in Australia, which is the effectivly government paying for a large amount of our heath care. They don't cover everything and their is often a 'gap' between what they pay and the total cost (for example it might cost $20 dollars to see the GP instead of $100, with the Government covering the rest). People can still have private insurance as well, to cover other things and to enable them to go to nicer (not necisarily better medically) hospitals and have shorter waits on ellective surgery. This sort of system seems like the sort of thing that people in the US don't want?

From my perspective, our system is far from perfect but it does (at least try to) give people people, no matter what there circumstances or age, access to affordable Doctors and Medicine.

We often hear quotes of people bringing up both "Nazis" and communism in the News about this. Australia is certainly not communist (far, far from it, Rupert Murdoch started his media empire in my home city). Do people really think these things are related?

Thanks for any information you can give me, I've thought about this for the last few months and it only just occured to me to ask here because there would be American's to answer my question.

 

[Rii]

Don't do it.

 

[browney]

Um why? I didn't so much want an opinion, just to understand what the whole debate was about because our coverage of it is probably very biased (because we have such a system).

 

[Roger Wilco]

Yes, that is a baffling question that has baffled many non-Americans to the point of complete baffleness many times here in Misc and elsewhere on TrekBBS (in places that must not be spoken of) and assumingly in the real world also but I can only speculate about that since I never step away from the computer.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

No doubt most of us brought up in a country that take health care for granted for all will have trouble understanding other peoples opposition to it, that don't mean they are wrong or right, only we don't really have any point of reference because most of us were born into a already working healthcare for all system and brought up that way.......a bit like guns, i have never seen, held or heard a gun in my life, i would probably collapse to the ground in a state of panic if a loaded gun ever appeared in my life, yet for some cultures its a way of life and they take it for granted.......such is the way of the world.

 

[Rii]

It occurs to me that Americans must get really tired of hearing about how things work in places that aren't America. It's wearing thin on me and I'm not even American.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I think what people from other countries aren't grasping, is that *money*, the money we make, is rooted into our national psychology.

There's a segment of the US population, I suppose, maybe an outgrowth of the money-focused nature of capitalism, that essentially feels, if you make more money, you're better, and deserve better for it. Supplying healthcare to people without money is seen as an affront to those with money. "Why do they deserve it? They don't make as much money as me. Why are my tax dollars paying for them?" Like it's unfair. To them, Healthcare is more akin to something like an LCD TV, rather than, say, the police department. If you're dirt poor and get really ill, and you can't afford treatment or regular private healthcare.... well its your own fault, because you don't have the money like I do. You're probably just lazy or something.

there are huge segments of our population here whose ENTIRE self-worth is defined entirely by money.

There's this big fear (not entirely unfounded i might add) that if everybody can get healthcare, then it makes things worse for those who are already being treated now (ie, those with the money to afford it). "I'm the one with the money, why should I now have to wait in longer lines so every poor person can get treated too!?" If you actually dig down past all the arguments, I found that it all comes down to a central idea: Having more money makes me more deserving.

Here's a great example of what I mean. This is an actual transcript between Captain Kirk himself and Rush Limbaugh, very popular political commentator

SHATNER: Here's my premise, and you agree with it or not, that if you have money, you're going to get health care. If you don't have money, it's more difficult.

RUSH: If you have money, you're gonna get a house on the beach. If you don't have money, you're gonna live in a bungalow somewhere.

SHATNER: Right, but we're talking about health care.

RUSH: What's the difference?

SHATNER: The difference is we're talking about health care.

RUSH: No.

SHATNER: Not a house and a bungalow.

RUSH: You're assuming that there's some morally superior aspect to health care than there is --

SHATNER: No.

RUSH: -- to a house.

Like I said, that segment of the US population thinks of healthcare as something akin to an LCD TV... or, say, a house. Something to buy, and whether you get it or not depends on your income.
The opposing viewpoint is that it's something more fundamental, 'morally superior' as Rush puts it, more along the lines of public health, having clean water, a police and fire department, etc etc.

 

[Miss Chicken]

When I first joined the workforce there was no UHC in Australia. Soon after beginning work I joined a private health scheme that I was to stay with for the next 7 years even though during that time UHC was introduced in Australia. During those 7 years the amount of money the health fund had to pay out for me was far greater than I ever had to pay to them in fees. This is mainly because during that time I had three pregnancies and three difficult births. Someone other than me had to pay for most of those costs and it was the other members of that health fund.

Since 1982 I have relied totally on the UHC but the total paid out for my family's health care wouldn't equal the amount paid out for my family between 1975 and 1982.

I guess what I am trying to say in a system where either there isn't UHC or many people use private insurance instead of UHC some people's money still fund other people's health care.

Why is it that some Americans can't accept this?

 

[Roger Wilco]

I guess what I am trying to say in a system where either there isn't UHC or many people use private insurance instead of UHC some people's money still fund other people's health care.

Yeah. That's basically how every insurance works, private or public, for-profit or non-profit.

 

[browney]

It occurs to me that Americans must get really tired of hearing about how things work in places that aren't America. It's wearing thin on me and I'm not even American.

I appologise, I wasn't trying to offend anyone and certainly not 'preach' (The Australian system is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and is in the process of some pretty big review and possible changes). I am trying to understand another point of view. You must be able to see how it is actually really interesting to see people protesting against something in one country that is an important right in my country. We often see protests to get the government to spend more on health rather than less.


That Transcript with Shatner is interesting. I never quite thought of it like that, but I guess I do consider basic heathcare as a fundimental public service, like a police department (to use your example). Is basic healthcare and medicine still offered in the US if you don't have insurance and don't have much money?

Also what is with the link to Nazis? I have heard this a couple of times and don't understand the link.

 

[KiraDax]

There's a segment of the US population, I suppose, maybe an outgrowth of the money-focused nature of capitalism, that essentially feels, if you make more money, you're better, and deserve better for it. Supplying healthcare to people without money is seen as an affront to those with money. To them, Healthcare is more akin to something like an LCD TV, rather than, say, the police department.

That's it exactly. It's insane and it's sad.

 

[TheBrew]

Also what is with the link to Nazis? I have heard this a couple of times and don't understand the link.

Because the Nazi Party was also known as The National Socialist German Workers' Party and a few mentally deficient people think that NHS would make the US a socialist country; ergo these are Nazi policies.

Yes, I know, I can't believe that there are people who are this stupid in this country.

 

[CmdrAJD]

I think Stone Cold Sisko summed up most of it, but what I find amusing is that the US already has government-run health care programs. We have Medicare, which covers some health care costs for the elderly (It's not completely comprehensive, and many older folks with financial means also keep additional health insurance), and Medicaid for those who fall below a certain poverty level. As I understand it, the individual state governments are responsible for managing these programs, but a lot of the funds come from the Federal government. Many states also have government-run insurance programs for children. The people in this country that don't have insurance are mostly those working lower paying jobs that do not provide any health benefits to their employees.

 

[Kirby]

I think the main problem is that a lot of people believe that their taxes will go through the roof to fund government-run health care, and that the government will run it very, very poorly. I think everyone agrees that people should have adequate health care, that isn't the point.
I haven't been able to get the city to fill in the giant tire-bursting pothole at the end of my street for the last month, so if I have some sort of disease, do I really want to go into the same burocracy to see a doctor?

 

[RoJoHen]

Yes, that is a baffling question that has baffled many non-Americans

Trust me, it baffles some Americans, too.

 

[Docbrown777]

The answer to the original questions really is not that complicated.

Most Americans have health care already and are fine with the current system. It's a minority that don't have any. So the government program would result in higher taxes and the already covered people don't want higher taxes.

On top of that you have to understand that most jobs in the US provide a healtcare plan for all employees. So you get hired you basically walk into healthcare coverage. Now you want these people to pay higher taxes too?

So you don't have a lot of people clamoring for it. Then on top of that add that the insurance companies have a lot of money and are spending a ton to lobby politicians to be against any reform.

That's why Obama is fighting uphill and why so many are against it.

Personally I'm not against it. I think of health care kind of like education. It's something that should be provided to all citizens. If you want a "better" private school for your kids of private health care then go right ahead. However, there should be a public option just like there are public schools.

The people that are hurt the most under the current system are small buisnesses and the self employed. For the little guys private insurance premiums are very high.

 

[SeerSGB]

Depends,

If I'm in a verbose mood I'll go into the political, cultural, and media driven hysteria reasons used by both sides of the debate. And why both sides can have valid points, but generally avoid addressing the larger and more critical issues in favor of political talking points and campaign donations.

If I'm tired, cranky, or generally in a foul mood: "We're all a bunch of whiny pussies that are throwing a national tantrum and need a good smacking and told to behave."

 

[scotpens]

Is basic healthcare and medicine still offered in the US if you don't have insurance and don't have much money?

Yes. By law, emergency rooms, whether privately run or public, have to treat patients with immediately serious or life-threatening conditions. And there are public hospitals. They just don't exactly offer the highest level of care.

Also what is with the link to Nazis? I have heard this a couple of times and don't understand the link.

Ever hear of Godwin's Law?

 

[RoJoHen]

Is basic healthcare and medicine still offered in the US if you don't have insurance and don't have much money?

Yes. By law, emergency rooms, whether privately run or public, have to treat patients with immediately serious or life-threatening conditions. And there are public hospitals. They just don't exactly offer the highest level of care.

Unfortunately, without insurance, the costs are absolutely insane. I once got charged $75 for a frickin' Ibuprofen.

 

[scotpens]

.....a bit like guns, i have never seen, held or heard a gun in my life, i would probably collapse to the ground in a state of panic if a loaded gun ever appeared in my life . . .

You're saying you've never even TOUCHED a gun, much less fired one?

You haven't lived!

However, this is a subject for another thread . . .