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Dukat: Not so bad once you get to know him?

Withers

Captain
I sat down to the episode Waltz last night just before I went to bed. As I watched I read a few pages on Memory Alpha about the writers, producers, and the actor who played Dukats feelings on the character. Obviously, they'd taken the character on a long, curvy road, from being antagonistic, to being more ambiguous bordering on being a protagonist, to truly being the evil man he became as the series concluded. They modeled his rise to power on Hitler's. Ira Behr described the character as “the Richard Nixon of Deep Space Nine.” In Waltz, as the writers intended, any ambiguity about the character is more or less cast aside as he finally declared to Sisko that he should have turned Bajor in a grave yard the likes of which the galaxy had never seen, after beating him what looked like a pipe. It's pretty hard to view Dukat in any light but a truly sinister one after hearing him say such a thing and do something like that to an already injured man. But back up to the beginning of the rant that became and play devils advocate for just a moment;


Dukat brings up some fairly solid points. One is that the Occupation had been going on for forty years once he became the Prefect. He also mentions steps he took like abolishing child labor, increasing food rations, and providing more adequate health care. The death toll dropped by 20% after his first month as Prefect. (Of course, he could be lying about all that, but why? I mean Sisko would know the truth so it would be pointless to do so.) Does that excuse the Cardassians being on Bajor in the first place? Of course not. But in Dukat's head he wasn't an unreasonable man. He went so far as to describe his idea of justice (essentially an eye for an eye) in a way that makes one think that's just what Cardassians think justice means (and there's some pretty compelling evidence that their system of justice is pretty skewed by comparison to the Federation but it still seems like their way of doing things not just Dukat's craziness.)


Dukat's points and his feelings about his own motives aren't really the point though. The point I really wanted to write about is this;


Dukat was obviously mentally unstable. After his daughters death he obviously didn't really get any better. He was hallucinating for crying out loud. Now, while he demanded Sisko participate in his “trial on the spot,” Sisko didn't hold back in pushing Dukat. He held off as long as he could given his condition but ultimately he played Dukat's game and fed into his...unraveling. Who hasn't been there? You're in a fight with someone you have deep personal history with, they say things, you say things, and it goes over board. That's where that phrase “We all say things we don't mean” comes from. Go to the mat with a sociopath who is hated in an entire ¼ of the galaxy and what do you get? Dukat... probably meant what he said about the Bajorans. Knowing that he'd be treated (by everyone who wasn't a Cardassian) like he had exterminated the population of Bajor he probably wished he had at that point. Here we have a guy who has been (perhaps justifiably) vilified for the past six years in spite of the way he sees himself (a reasonable guy, just following orders). When you're told over and over again that you're a villain, doesn't it make it easier to just be a villain? It's like when someone tells you to 'calm down' and you feel compelled to shout that you are calm. And I think Sisko walks him to that cliff and then shoves him over the edge with statements like “And you hated them, huh?!” and “You should have killed them!” If you really listen to the progression of the conversation it really seems like there was one guy with a short fuse on a stick of dynamite and another guy with a lit match.


Dukat was an evil man. There's no real way to get around that. But I think a lot of him going from ambiguous to irredeemable has to do with Sisko's conversation with him in Waltz. It's the classic conundrum; would Lex Luthor be Lex Luthor if Superman didn't exist? The actor who played Dukat also never gave up on the idea of the character being decent underneath it all. The writers did such a good job weaving different threads into the character that I'm left with the ambiguity they wanted to eliminate from the character altogether. Sure, he was a bad guy, but if the actions of the hero caused him to transform in to true evil, who is to blame for what comes of the transformation?


(I just wanted to write about Dukat. I don't really have a position on him I guess. Regardless, I really, really like the character the more I think about him. He's so intricate and multifaceted. What would it take to get a villain of the caliber into a movie? Anyway, just me pontificating, no real... ya know, “point” to any of it really.)


-Withers-​
 
Well, I agree with your 'self-proclaimed pointless pontificating'. :) I think before he went nuts, Dukat actually had SOME decency and some limits as to what he would and wouldn't do but by the end he was totally evil, although it wasn't entirely his fault.
 
Dukat was an evil man. There's no real way to get around that.

I disagree. I get around that by not attaching a lot of clout to the writers' deliberate, conscious decision to bastardize the Dukat character as of Waltz.

I get around that by viewing the 5 years of superb characterization of Dukat as canon, as opposed to the 2 years of retconning bastardization of Dukat, which I view as not canon.

The retconning of Dukat's character as of Waltz and on in is in no way congruent with Dukat as he appears in episodes that occur earlier in the series, so I'll go with that portrayal of Dukat instead.

Dukat was never evil or mentally unstable before Waltz (megalomaniacal yes, but that's the extent of it).

According to Jeffrey Combs, they even made another ending to Waltz wherein Dukat did not suffer from character assasination by the writers, which just goes to show that the bastardization was ill-conceived, spur of the moment, ad hoc nonsense.
 
I like the character... but I also think Marc Alaimo did such a fantastic job going over the edge, I have no choice but to believe what I saw on screen. I really get the sense that, because of his conversation with Sisko, Dukat went over the edge and started down the path to become what he (over the rest of the show) became. I think it became "Fine. You thought that was bad? You ain't seen nothin' yet!" It's like what happens to anybody who gets pushed long enough in one direction only in Dukat's case you have to add megalomania and egocentricity along with his ability to get his hands on an army and cause trouble.


I have to buy where Dukat went in the end. With any other actor I think I would have felt like they just... hit the gas in the evil-mobile with Dukat. Had anyone else played along side him those scenes I think it would have seemed like a ploy to make the hero look all that much better. Dukat is proving, once and for all, the depths of his depravity. At the same time, however, Sisko is proving to Dukat just what everyone really thinks of him and is basically giving him license to finally be the villain he's been trying to prove to everyone he wasn't.


-Withers-​
 
Was Dukat evil? On balance I'd have to say yes. However, before Waltz he was an interesting character with different sides to his personality. Certainly he thought he was a good man, and there were other people, like Ziyal, who thought so too.
From Waltz onward I think the writers lost the plot as regards Dukat. The complex characterisation built up between Emissary and Sacrifice of Angels pretty much went out the window and he was turned into Sisko's archnemesis in what I thought was a really forced way. The point of no return was Tears of the Prophets and that "Hi Damar, no, I don't blame you at all for murdering my daughter, somehow it was all Sisko's fault" scene.
 
I agree that Alaimo is an amazing actor, and even when saddled with crap writing (Dukat in S6-7), he certainly made the most of it, performance-wise.

Alaimo would have, and did, performe(d) anything they told him to do very well.
 
Evil? Maybe not. Insane? Definitely, although his insanity didn't make a lot of sense. Wait, that sounds dumb. Insanity rarely makes sense. His transformation didn't make a lot of sense.

I get around that by viewing the 5 years of superb characterization of Dukat as canon, as opposed to the 2 years of retconning bastardization of Dukat, which I view as not canon.

And here I thought I was the only one who picked and chose his own canon... :) Personally, I choose to ignore the last 9 episodes or so of DS9 so what you're doing isn't all that different. I much prefer the 'shades of grey' Dukat to the all-out evil Dukat.
 
Dukat's not a bad guy once you get to know him.

He's worse.

Indeed. :techman: He deludes himself into thinking he is a benevolent, caring, heroic individual- and that's far more dangerous and twisted than simply being malevolent, uncaring and villainous. He turns himself into the victim- no-one understands him, the Bajorans won't love him despite "all he's done for them" (he abolished child labour and shortened work hours or whatever but did the Bajorans fall at his knees and love him for that, nooooooo, they selfishly wanted the occupation to end and turned his benevolent hand aside), neither will the Cardassians love him (Cardassia invaded? Who cares? I've got pah-wraiths), it's Sisko's fault Ziyal died and not Damar's or mine because I like Damar and I really like me and I need to blame someone and I hate Sisko for getting my office anyway so it's his fault...

I think this is where the opening poster's argument fails (I don't mean this in a rude way- it was a very articulate post). Calling Dukat a villain over and over and shoving it in his face wouldn't, I think, cause him to say "Fine! I'll be a villain then! I'll be the villainest villain you ever saw!" Dukat would instead just get more and more frustrated that no-one was recognizing his "true" greatness and heroism. Why can't they see? Why can't they perceive his greatness? And the more it goes on the more he becomes totally convinced he is at heart right and everyone else fails to see this and persecutes him- so he hates them. I just don't buy that Dukat ever responded to the galaxy seeing him as a villain in the way described, because I think he was simply incapable of seeing himself as the true villain of anything for very long. As far as he sees it, he's the hero, the benefactor, the rightful avenger, the noble leader, the good caring father, the strong leader of his people, the good husband, and the more extreme things get for him the more he insists upon this until eventually it consumes him and he hates everyone and everything for refusing to recognise his greatness (See his conversation with Weyoun at the beginning of season six- he's obsessed with having everyone, "beloved Bajoran children" and fallen enemies alike, look upon his greatness. And this is before his breakdown).
 
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Dukat's not a bad guy once you get to know him.

He's worse.

Indeed. :techman: He deludes himself into thinking he is a benevolent, caring, heroic individual- and that's far more dangerous and twisted than simply being malevolent, uncaring and villainous. He turns himself into the victim- no-one understands him, the Bajorans won't love him despite "all he's done for them" (he abolished child labour and shortened work hours or whatever but did the Bajorans fall at his knees and love him for that, nooooooo, they selfishly wanted the occupation to end and turned his benevolent hand aside), neither will the Cardassians love him (Cardassia invaded? Who cares? I've got pah-wraiths), it's Sisko's fault Ziyal died and not Damar's or mine because I like Damar and I really like me and I need to blame someone and I hate Sisko for getting my office anyway so it's his fault...

Thank you, both of you. Dukat does not get nicer the further down you go. He can be charming and kind and gentle, but Dukat, the man, the basic person, is a self-serving snake. Season Four and Five showed the so-called gentler side of Dukat and he CHOSE to turn away from it, preferring the power he gained through shackling Cardassia to the Dominion and becoming the leader of the Cardassian people.

Remembering that he could have been a good person, when there were people who believed in him - Ziyal thought the world of him, and through her, even Kira was beginning to see him as a person, not a symbol of Cardassian occupation - and that he chose to give that all up for greater power makes him a far more villainous character than he'd been.

Yes, he does prove all those things the Bajorans have said of him because they saw who he was under the veil of kindness and courtesy. There were Bajorans identifying Sisko as the Emissary before they even knew him (not just Opaka, didn't a Vedek or Prylar identify him as such before he met her?). Something about the Bajorans' connection to the Prophets, or maybe just as an after-effect of Orb experiences, lets them see straight to who a person is. And they saw through Dukat's mask. That's why he specifically is hated on Bajor. Your oppressor may try and make you comfortable in your oppression, but it is still oppression. The fact that the jailer tried to distract them with better curtains around the bars makes it worse - it's telling the prisoner they can ALMOST have the life of a free man, but not entirely.

Note also that despite his protestations that he was good for Bajor, that what he did helped them, he also made no arrangements to benefit them when the Occupation ended. It could be argued that he left Terok Nor intact (though personally, I tend to prefer the explanation from the Millenium novels, that the station WAS set to self destruct and that system got sabotaged) but remember that in Emissary, the Promenade was practically a ghost town and Quark, arguably the lynchpin of the Promenade businesses, was about to close up shop. Bajor was stripped of resources, and if the Federation weren't the good guys, they would have basically traded one occupier for another, this time with nothing to offer them but slave labor. Gee, what a swell legacy to leave behind.
 
Worse, didn't the Cardassians deliberately kill a lot of Bajorans for the hell of it and poison most of the fertile agricultural areas right before they left as a final "gift"? Dukat HAD to have known about that, likely he was the one who masterminded the whole thing.
 
See, I think that's part of it exactly.

Dukat's whole rationale is that they should be thankful he wasn't the monster he could have been. But, obviously, nobody is. And for six years this guy under goes this constant reminder of what a terrible man he is and how horrible he was to the Bajorans when, in his mind, he's thinking "Why don't they thank me for being the saint I was when compared to demon I might have been?"

Then, in this epic showdown with Sisko, he's finally let off his chain. It's finally like, "Okay, you're not thankful. You thought it was bad then? You're going to call those 'the good ole days' when I'm finished!" He as good as says it to Sisko:

"They thought I was their enemy? They don't know what it is to be my enemy, but they will. From this day forward, Bajor is dead! All of Bajor!! And this time, even their Emissary won't be able to save them!"

He was in a manic state leading up to that point anyway and I think his conversation with Sisko is what finally pushed him over the edge. His obsession with being loved is the real cause for it- he realizes he'll never be loved for what he didn't do but, in his twisted mind, he's thinking that by showing them what could have been they might appreciate the Dukat they had during the occupation. Think of it like breaking a finger. That seems horrible until someone cuts off your hand. Of course that's never going to happen but it would seemingly speak to his motives.


-Withers-​
 
When I see Dukat, what I see is squandered potential--and he is the one responsible for squandering it. I cut him no slack...there is no making him look good in comparison to what he DIDN'T do. What he DID do is bad enough.

There were elements, before his insanity, of the person he could have been--elements that would sometimes surface only to be shoved back down by the persona he built for himself. He was deluded and utterly wrapped up in himself, in the end, unable to really reach out and touch reality. But I blame HIM for the choices that led him to the point..."Waltz" was simply the point of no return. Dukat has zero excuse...he has no one else to blame for his failure to become the man he could have become, but himself.

I agree with the point that Mr. Alaimo's acting makes it credible--and that's one reason why even in my own fanfic (which features an AU Dukat who made much better choices and became the man he should've been) I fully accept the entire storyline from "Waltz" forward.

(It's interesting that you mention the idea of Dukat being in a manic state. That's actually something I carried over into AU Dukat, though the way it's handled is WAY different.)
 
Dukat's not a bad guy once you get to know him.

He's worse.

Indeed. :techman: He deludes himself into thinking he is a benevolent, caring, heroic individual- and that's far more dangerous and twisted than simply being malevolent, uncaring and villainous. He turns himself into the victim- no-one understands him, the Bajorans won't love him despite "all he's done for them" (he abolished child labour and shortened work hours or whatever but did the Bajorans fall at his knees and love him for that, nooooooo, they selfishly wanted the occupation to end and turned his benevolent hand aside), neither will the Cardassians love him (Cardassia invaded? Who cares? I've got pah-wraiths), it's Sisko's fault Ziyal died and not Damar's or mine because I like Damar and I really like me and I need to blame someone and I hate Sisko for getting my office anyway so it's his fault...

Thank you, both of you. Dukat does not get nicer the further down you go. He can be charming and kind and gentle, but Dukat, the man, the basic person, is a self-serving snake. Season Four and Five showed the so-called gentler side of Dukat and he CHOSE to turn away from it, preferring the power he gained through shackling Cardassia to the Dominion and becoming the leader of the Cardassian people.

Beautifully put, all three of you. Dukat is the most destructive kind of bad guy: The bad guy who so yearns to see himself as the good guy that he annihilates truth. The bad guy who's so busy posturing and posing and proving to himself that he's the good guy that he doesn't...you know...actually do much of anything that's good. At least not very much. He is sometimes good in small ways, but what difference does that make when he's bad in the big ways, bad when it really matters?

See, I think that's part of it exactly.

Dukat's whole rationale is that they should be thankful he wasn't the monster he could have been. But, obviously, nobody is. And for six years this guy under goes this constant reminder of what a terrible man he is and how horrible he was to the Bajorans when, in his mind, he's thinking "Why don't they thank me for being the saint I was when compared to demon I might have been?"

Then, in this epic showdown with Sisko, he's finally let off his chain. It's finally like, "Okay, you're not thankful. You thought it was bad then? You're going to call those 'the good ole days' when I'm finished!" He as good as says it to Sisko:

"They thought I was their enemy? They don't know what it is to be my enemy, but they will. From this day forward, Bajor is dead! All of Bajor!! And this time, even their Emissary won't be able to save them!"

He was in a manic state leading up to that point anyway and I think his conversation with Sisko is what finally pushed him over the edge. His obsession with being loved is the real cause for it- he realizes he'll never be loved for what he didn't do but, in his twisted mind, he's thinking that by showing them what could have been they might appreciate the Dukat they had during the occupation. Think of it like breaking a finger. That seems horrible until someone cuts off your hand. Of course that's never going to happen but it would seemingly speak to his motives.


When I see Dukat, what I see is squandered potential--and he is the one responsible for squandering it. I cut him no slack...there is no making him look good in comparison to what he DIDN'T do. What he DID do is bad enough.

I agree. I think he eventually went insane...but think of all that perfectly sane and self-serving evil he did before that. And in a way, what he did when he was sane was worse than anything he tried after he flipped out. Because when he was sane, he did it on purpose, and he either dismissed it as perfectly understandable given what irrational children the Bajorans were, as "necessary," or as excusable because he was "following orders." While there was undoubtedly a strong element of "I'm going to make them pay for not loving me as I deserve to be loved," in the end, I think he escaped into insanity. I think becoming insane was, on some level, a choice.

I mean, it was that or coming to terms with reality, and the reality was, he was a monster. Charming, intelligent, capable of kindness...but still a monster.
 
What he did when he was sane, I believe, set up what he did when he was insane. His insanity was the price he paid, in the end, for his own choices.
 
To me Skrain Dukat was one of the more realistic villains that we have ever seen in Sci-Fi for precisely the reasons that Deranged Nasat, Neryrs Ghemor and JustKate have outlined with their usual eloquence.

Dukat did terrible unconscionable things which resulted in the deaths of millions and the betrayal of his own people but for which he felt no guilt or responsibility. Like so many despots, conquers and Empire builders he was firmly convinced that everything he did was for the greater good. Almost anything could be explained away by proclaiming that he did it for his people, world or sons but really he was trapped in his own megalomania.

Yet, he could be charming and could make what would seem to be heroic sacrifices and could even gain the respect of others but he would always end up destroying any good that he had done.

Human history is replete with Dukats which is why out of all the DS9 characters Gul Dukat is the most fascinating. However the more you know him, the more bad he gets until there are no shades of gray...only Dukat.
 
The title of this thread more tongue in cheek than an actual question. I don't want it to seem as though I would ever excuse Dukat of his behavior. I would only suggest that there is an explanation for it beyond “he was evil!” To find that explanation one has to break his history into three parts.

The Occupation

What happened to Bajor during The Occupation was horrible and inexcusable. But we're talking about Cardassia, their cultural arrogance, and disregard for the right of other civilizations to exist in that case- not just the actions of one man. Dukat wasn't responsible for The Occupation any more than any one given US Army General was responsible for Westward expansionism or the systematic elimination (essentially) of the Native American population. His duplicity in the Occupation and the actions he took were wrong. That's not in dispute (at least it isn't for me). However, we're talking about an event that had been going on since Dukat was a very young man (potentially even since he was just a little boy.) Once he got there he was following his cultures moral imperative to spread their civilization to what they deemed a lesser species. In the sense of what he did while he was the Prefect Cardassian culture is to blame for his behavior more than any... initial intrinsic hate of Bajorans he might have had when he got there. In summation Bajor could've been anywhere- if Cardassia had occupied some other planet for 40 years he'd have done just what he did on Bajor on that planet instead. At this stage in his history it wasn't personal. Yes, his behavior was atrocious, but it is a fault of Cardassian policy, not just Dukat.

The Five Year Interlude

During this period a lot happens to the character. On one hand he gets branded a failure by his people over what happened on Bajor. On the other hand he gets branded everything from a war criminal to a monster by the rest of the quadrant (at least those that know enough to care) for what happened on Bajor. It's a classic lose-lose in that sense. Add to that the disgrace over Tora Ziyal, the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, and the cementing of Benjamin Sisko in the role he feels he should have had (not necessarily as Emissary to the Bajorans but that's the sort of love Dukat expected and was baffled at never having received.) Thanks to the ingrained delusions most Cardassians have after the upbringing Dukat no doubt had I think the “ambiguity” he showed during this period was more him trying to figure out just exactly what to do with himself. Ultimately, the constant reminders of how terrible he was (by Kira and others), gave him a sense of bitterness over Bajor that he expressed more than once during this period. That bitterness along with the continually elevating adversarial relationship with Sisko eventually led to his outright turn to pure evil.

Escalation

There's this great scene at the end of Batman Begins where Gordon asks Batman about escalation.
Jim Gordon: What about escalation?
Batman: Escalation?
Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor-piercing rounds.
Batman: And?
Jim Gordon: And *you're* wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops.
It's the same situation at this point with Dukat. Bajor beefed up with the Federation? Fine, Cardassia will beef up by joining the Dominion. Sisko has the Prophets? He sides with the Pah Wraiths. After the events of Waltz where certain things finally become clear to Dukat he goes over the edge. At this point it is very much a personal thing between Dukat and Sisko with Bajor as the ball they're both after. After Waltz it's all about matching Sisko and beating him. He wants the opportunity to beat him (and proves that by contacting the Defiant rather than just leaving Sisko to die or outright killing him when he had the chance.)
Again, I don't want to make it seem as though I'm trying to excuse Dukat. His behavior was reprehensible more or less from start to finish. But when you examine it closely it seems less like just “senseless evil” and more like the necessary equal and opposite of what was presented in the form of DS9's various heroes (especially Sisko.)


-Withers-​
 
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Again, I don't want to make it seem as though I'm trying to excuse Dukat. His behavior was reprehensible more or less from start to finish. But when you examine it closely it seems less like just “senseless evil” and more like the necessary equal and opposite of what was presented in the form of DS9's various heroes (especially Sisko.)
How did this happen? How did we come to the point where someone feels he has to APOLOGIZE for trying to understand and make sense of the behavior and motivations of a fictional character, so much that he repeats 3 or 4 times "I am not trying to excuse his behavior", as if expecting to be attacked for thinking things through rather than just screaming "he is eeevil! eevil! And that's why he does eeevvil things!" OMG :cardie:

Anyway, your analysis is very good. You even manage to make sense of the Pah-wraiths thing... almost.
 
How did this happen? How did we come to the point where someone feels he has to APOLOGIZE for trying to understand and make sense of the behavior and motivations of a fictional character, so much that he repeats 3 or 4 times "I am not trying to excuse his behavior", as if expecting to be attacked for thinking things through rather than just screaming "he is eeevil! eevil! And that's why he does eeevvil things!" OMG

Alright, you know the guy that is constantly saying Kes was the star of Voyager? Or that Wesley wasn't annoying on The Next Generation? Or that The Grand Nagus wasn't obnoxious and annoying on DS9? And they say so repetitively not because its true or necessarily supported by evidence but because they personally like that character? Well, I don't want to come off as that guy in regard to Dukat's actions (I'm not trying to excuse them because I like the actor and the character so much essentially.)


Anyway, your analysis is very good.

Thanks. :) Occasionally I try.



-Withers-​
 
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