A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Booji]

And Bester is sort of like a Russian PsiCop.

"Telepathy is a Russian inwention."

hehe... I just finished watching TOS all the way through for the first time, and it's so nice to finally get many of the jokes that are thrown around here.

and Ivanova was dreadful in season 1. at least she becomes bearable in s2

 

[TheGodBen]

I disagree. ben Zayn was not the focus of the story. Sinclair was. Spend too much time on giving the villain too much attention and you take away from the series regulars. Of course you can do that and get a good story, but it'd be more strategically valuable later in the series, not mid-S1. At this early stage in B5's life, there is precious little time to go down various alleyways that might never pan out. The sponsoring studio wants to see results yesterday.

Different series + different creators = different approaches, which does not equate with one being better, just preferable depending upon the viewer. Sinclair is not Picard and was never intended to be Picard. Sinclair's background is to be more mysterious and full of question. Picard is set up to be more the vintage Trek-like hero of unquestioned integrity and morals. Both can work and work well.

But the problem is that the exact opposite is happening, Sinclair is coming across as a Kirk-like hero of unquestionable integrity because most of the antagonists he faces are 1 dimensional and clearly in the wrong. It's similar to the problem on Voyager where the writers feared that they'd make Janeway look weak if any of her crew challenged her decisions, so characters like Chakotay were emasculated. The opposite happened, by never being properly challenged Janeway appeared weaker than she was.

Sinclair's track record...
The Gathering: G'Kar was the ultimate villain at the end of the episode, this revelation was played as comedy.
Midnight on the Firing Line: A MacGuffin.
Soul Hunter: A man considered insane even by Soul Hunter standards.
Infection: A b-movie monster.
Mind War: Bester seems like he could be multi-dimensional in the future, it is hard to judge him on this episode alone.
The War Prayer: A racist.
And the Sky Full of Stars: A ham whose motivation isn't explained, at least not in this episode.
Deathwalker: A genocidal witch.
By Any Means Necessary: A prig.
Eyes: An unstable, covetous rival.

Sinclair's best moment so far was the section in Believers where he had to weigh up whether to save that boy or not, other than that I'm not finding him all that interesting as a man. He's more a mystery than a character in his own right. In fairness, Sisko was like that too for the first two years of DS9, he was good in Emissary but it wasn't until Past Tense that he really started to come together as a character. The problem with Sinclair is that he can't be afforded the luxury of time like Sisko was because I know he will be replaced by Sheridan in season 2. I don't know, maybe he sticks around as a recurring character and I'll get to see him prove himself against compelling antagonists, but right now I feel that they're wasting him by putting him up against people like Ben Zayn.

 

[stonester1]

Patience...just take it all in...

 

[Kegg]

The real clincher for "Legacies" is Delenn being the perp, I'd agree. It's definitely a good example of the relative uptick in quality as season one enters its final lap.

Ivanova's characterization in Season 1 goes something like this:

"I hate the PsiCorp."

"I'm Russian."

"I hate the PsiCorp."

"I'm Russian."

"PsiCorps? Hate 'em."

"Did I mention that I'm Russian?"

Oh come now, she was more developed than that.

Uh.

She was also Jewish. There, see?

But the problem is that the exact opposite is happening, Sinclair is coming across as a Kirk-like hero of unquestionable integrity because most of the antagonists he faces are 1 dimensional and clearly in the wrong.

Exactly. It's lazy, conveinent writing, especially in something like "Eyes." Star Trek can be guilty of it at times, but really, its best and most probing episodes morally are the ones where there is another side to the argument - consider "The Measure of a Man", which is a goddamned powerhouse of Picard's intellectual and moral integrity, but that doesn't mean Riker or even his old flame - or even Maddox - come off as one-note villains. They all have perfectly rational reasons for either what they want to do or argue to be the case.

 

[stonester1]

I swear, some of the B5 bashers, with their quick Trek comparisons, come across as...catty/bitchy. Yes, Kegg, I would be talking about you.

 

[Kegg]

I swear, some of the B5 bashers, with their quick Trek comparisons, come across as...catty/bitchy. Yes, Kegg, I would be talking about you.

I'm a B5 basher now? This comes as a surprise to me. I do energetically enjoy taking the show down a few pegs or nine, but I also do like it very, very much. That's less contradictory than it sounds: There's things I really like about B5, and then there's all this other stuff I'm not keen on.

Anyway, with more than a few other posts being to the effect of 'now the show gets incredibly amazing', well, I like to counterpoint. Did I mention "Counterpoint" is my favourite episode of Star Trek: Voyager? I'm like the guy in that episode: Love Mahler, allegedly sympathetic guy, but I have it in for the telepaths.

I think the metaphors were too mixed there.

 

[stonester1]

I'm a B5 basher now? This comes as a surprise to me. I do energetically enjoy taking the show down a few pegs or nine,

Or at least attempting, my question would be why.

but I also do like it very, very much. That's less contradictory than it sounds: There's things I really like about B5, and then there's all this other stuff I'm not keen on.

It's the latter that, for whatever reason, you seem singularly focused on.

Anyway, with more than a few other posts being to the effect of 'now the show gets incredibly amazing', well, I like to counterpoint.

I don't know how much of a counterpoint it is. You act like it's some kind of revelation that the show isn't always perfect, especially in it's first season. For some reason, you like to FOCUS on that.

I don't get that.

But yes, you do come across as a basher at times. Like when B5 was the shiney new scifi kid and you were a Trek fan who resented it at the time, and still do to an extent.

Me, I'm one of the happy Trek fans who WELCOMED the new kid and was glad to see this one wanting to defy previously established genre tropes and expectations, and throw a little something extra in the mix.

That TV science fiction didn't have to be Star Trek.

Star Trek did itself favors when it came to that realization itself, and shot itself in the foot when it retreated from that with a vengeance.

Did I mention "Counterpoint" is my favourite episode of Star Trek: Voyager? I'm like the guy in that episode: Love Mahler, allegedly sympathetic guy, but I have it in for the telepaths.

I think the metaphors were too mixed there.

Voyager would a a classic case in point of that retreat. There was a chance to truly break the mold with that unique situation, crew and location created. But no.

Mind you, there was lots of promise. Some good characters well cast, some good stories told in the mix, and I'm a Voyager fan now (for many years was not), but largely, it was an opportunity wasted.

Same thing happened to Enterprise.

Anyway, the point is, Babylon 5 wished to retreat from all that. And most of the time, it did a damn good job. And helped create a new paradigm that allowed subsequent creators to be more daring.

We as science fiction fans, as STAR TREK FANS, are better off as a result.

 

[Kegg]

It's the latter that, for whatever reason, you seem singularly focused on.

To quote myself:

The real clincher for "Legacies" is Delenn being the perp, I'd agree. It's definitely a good example of the relative uptick in quality as season one enters its final lap.

That was the post just prior to the one that preceeded this disgression. It's not glowing praise, but I don't think it'd be altogether true I'm singularly focused on criticizing the show.

You act like it's some kind of revelation that the show isn't always perfect, especially in it's first season. For some reason, you like to FOCUS on that.

Because TheGodBen is currently watching the first sseason. I'll get to the others soon enough, no? Come "The Coming of the Shadows" and "The Long Twilight Struggle" expect me to be whistling a fairly different tune.

Spoiler: And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

Also I just plain love the death of Refa to gospel music. That's dramatically satisfying and hilariously ironic all at the same time. Now that's something Star Trek could have used more of.

 

[stonester1]

That was the post just prior to the one that preceeded this disgression. It's not glowing praise, but I don't think it'd be altogether true I'm singularly focused on criticizing the show.

Such damning with faint praise, especially when stacked with just plain damning, makes it pretty clear where your biases lie. At least to me.

Because TheGodBen is currently watching the first sseason. I'll get to the others soon enough, no? Come "The Coming of the Shadows" and "The Long Twilight Struggle" expect me to be whistling a fairly different tune.

Oh, I suspect you'll get in your digs where you can.

Spoiler: And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

Also I just plain love the death of Refa to gospel music. That's dramatically satisfying and hilariously ironic all at the same time. Now that's something Star Trek could have used more of.

One of the best eps of the series.

 

[Kegg]

Such damning with faint praise, especially when stacked with just plain damning, makes it pretty clear where your biases lie. At least to me.

I didn't say I was fair, I said I wasn't singular. My verdict is definitely largely against the first season, as I've already rambled about.

Oh, I suspect you'll get in your digs where you can.

Absolutely.

 

[Canadave]

The real clincher for "Legacies" is Delenn being the perp, I'd agree. It's definitely a good example of the relative uptick in quality as season one enters its final lap.

Ivanova's characterization in Season 1 goes something like this:

"I hate the PsiCorp."

"I'm Russian."

"I hate the PsiCorp."

"I'm Russian."

"PsiCorps? Hate 'em."

"Did I mention that I'm Russian?"

Oh come now, she was more developed than that.

Uh.

She was also Jewish. There, see?

SPOILERS!

 

[Lindley]

Yeah, damn that past tense! Now he'll realize she's going to become a Buddist Mormon!

 

[Canadave]

^ Not to mention the fact that Crusade is all about her crusade (hence the name) to convert the galaxy.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, damn that past tense! Now he'll realize she's going to become a Buddist Mormon!

Man I hate those guys! Always coming to your door, asking if you think the next incarnation is in a terrible state and going on about how true enlightenment can only be found sitting under trees, shouting at passers by...

Legacies (***½)

I must admit that after the last couple of episodes I began to doubt the show again, so when it came to the mystery of who stole the body I was all set to blame Neroon since he was acting hostile towards humans since the start of the episode. It made sense; he disagreed with the religious faction's decision to end the war against humanity so he hatched an elaborate plot to blame humans for the disappearance of an important Minbari's body as pretext to go to war with humanity once again. So once it was revealed that Delenn was behind the body snatching I was moderately surprised, I hadn't even considered her, and it did make a reasonable amount of sense. It's not a good thing that the quality of some of this show's villains has been laughably bad, but it did work in this episode's favour.

Then again, this episode is about somebody stealing a corpse, which I found so weird that I couldn't help but laugh at times. But it does provide us with a few extra hints about the Earth-Minbari war, I learned that the war began because of the death of Dukhat and that the religious faction overruled the military faction in order to end the war. I still don't understand who Dukhat is or the circumstances surrounding his death, I don't even know how humans were involved with it, but I'm sure that all these things will be explained to me in time. And in the end Neroon seems like he could be an interesting character, and I'm assuming he will show up again because it would be odd for someone to pick a username based off of a one-off character.

The b-story treads old ground as we once again have Ivanova angry at the PsiCorps for what happened to her mother, just one week after the last time we saw her do this. This plot is okay, Alisa is an interesting enough character, but the solution to the problem does seem a little too easy. At the end she does make reference to a chrysalis, which I assume is foreshadowing something that is going to happen in the season finale. My guess is that Sinclair is the cocoon being referred to, whatever the Minbari did to him at the battle of the line will trigger in that episode. I can just see it now, he begins having sharp pains throughout the episode, and at the end he'll have the biggest pain of all, he'll fall to the floor with a sci-fi glow around him, and when he stands up again... he's a Minbari! Cue shocking music, cut to black, "TO BE CONTINUED..."

Scott Bakula: 13

If memory serves, a lot of the season one episodes got their order scrambled by the network, so we get a bunch of shows with similar threads right on top of each other when they were supposed to be a lot more spaced out. Plus most of the naff ones all got lumped together so it makes for a rather uneven overall viewing experience at times.

Case in point, I'm pretty sure the "Voice in the Wilderness" two parter was meant to be smack in the middle of the season, but instead it got pushed back to just a few episodes shy of the finale.

Fear not though, with one or two exceptions the rest of the show was broadcast in more or less the proper order, so from season 2 on out, any rough patches are entierly intentional.

As for Neroon (no, not you!) yes he will continue to be an interesting character. Just remember that what G'Kar said near the end of 'Mind War' holds true to most of the supporting cast too. "No one here is exactly what he appears."

 

[DWF]

B5 was a syndicated series not a network one and the eps. weren't scrambled at least not here in the States.

 

[David cgc]

Sure they were. One of the biggest continuity flubs I can remember off-hand is that Legacies comes before Babylon Squared, but B2 introduced a prop seen at one point in Legacies.

 

[Neroon]

For those of you discussing the out of order airing sequence, I present you with the the master episode list from the Lurker's Guide. Note that "Departures from the original US airing order are emphasized."

 

[CorporalClegg]

I swear, some of the B5 bashers, with their quick Trek comparisons, come across as...catty/bitchy. Yes, Kegg, I would be talking about you.

I think the part you're forgetting is this is first and foremost a Star Trek message board. The Trek comparisons offer a common point of relative interest.

 

[Neroon]

"No one here is exactly what he appears."

If there is one, single quote that is emblematic of the entire series... this is that quote

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

B5 was a syndicated series not a network one and the eps. weren't scrambled at least not here in the States.

Babylon 5 was part of a syndicated network called the Prime Time Entertainment Network, which was Warner Bros.'s first attempt at creating the much-desired fifth network of the early 90s.

Shows were given in two-hour block packages to syndicators to be aired on specific days. For example, Babylon 5 usually aired on Thursday nights in most cities, followed by another PTEN show, Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. PTEN would air its shows about twice a week, and it was hoped that eventually it'd have five nights of programing.

When UPN gained ground and the WB was created, PTEN switched to primarily syndicating its remaining show, Babylon 5. This event was one of the reasons for the five-year arc being truncated in the fourth year and only the eleventh hour deal with TNT allowed for a fifth and final season.

So, yes it was syndicated but it was also part of a network, and, iirc (help Jan!), PTEN screwed with B5 in terms of notes and airing orders.

One thing that the network did was to hold off the final four episodes of the season and air them right before the next season's premier in the fall. Reason: to give the season a jump start. Consequence: the previous season ended on a flat note and not an exciting cliffhanger.