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Star Trek Receives Four Oscar Noms...all Technical Awards

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Some readers might question<snip>


BurntSynapse, under the board rules, posting five consecutive posts is considered spamming. Since yours are clearly not contentless, I'll simply merge these for you and ask that you post no more than twice in a row in any given thread and that you make use of the board's Multi-Quote function to combine multiple replies into a single post.

As for this Pentagon-funded Hollywood pro-violence propaganda thing, I said earlier that that topic was not appropriate for discussion in this forum. Therin, I would have hoped you'd heeded that instruction and let the matter lie. Discussion of real-world politics has its place, but unless it has a direct bearing on the story told in this movie, that place is not this forum. Someone would be welcome to start a thread on that topic in Misc. or TNZ, but here it stops now, please.

Devon, is that kind of line-by-line rebuttal really necessary? It's really annoying to read, for one thing, and past a certain point it begins to look a little too much like taunting.
 
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And I suppose you are likely to vote for Chavez as well, right? Why don't you come down here so we can chat about this "Military Industrial Complex" of yours...
Once again, that topic has to do with neither the story told in the latest Star Trek movie or the four Oscar nominations the film received (the subject of this thread) and is therefore not a topic appropriate for this forum. I have suggested above a couple of alternate venues for those who may wish to pursue discussion of that topic. :)

BTW, you should perhaps not triple post.
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that it's a quintuple post and that it's my job to point that out. :vulcan:
 
Devon, is that kind of line-by-line rebuttal really necessary? It's really annoying to read, for one thing, and past a certain point it begins to look a little too much like taunting.

As I wanted to reply to each of those points, yes. I know of no rules against it.
 
Devon, of course his post is his opinion. If you want to disagree, that's fine but inaccurate snarkiness merely indicates you're upset and are unwilling to put forward a decently supported objection.

No, it means I'm clarifying for him that his statement is his opinion.

If you are unable to recognize the tone of your "clarification" was dismissive and indicated no interest in why he made the judgments he did, then we simply seem to have different levels of awareness regarding language.
 
BurntSynapse, under the board rules, posting five consecutive posts is considered spamming. Since yours are clearly not contentless, I'll simply merge these for you and ask that you post no more than twice in a row in any given thread and that you make use of the board's Multi-Quote function to combine multiple replies into a single post.

I would ask two things: (1) Can you explain why you ask me to adhere to rules different (and more strict) the official board rules? (i.e.: limiting me to 2 rather than the official 4?) This seems to support more stringent requirements on those expressing criticism of the film than enthusiasts, a tendency suggested earlier.

(2) Do you have any idea why multiquote does not work on Mozilla under Windows Vista 64? In fact, the manual html insertions are very labor intensive, and after a while I simply gave up trying to manually nest the QUOTE tags and went for sequential replies. I would love to be able to Multiquote. Clicking it only highlights the linked button image, but does not execute anything AFAICT.

As for this Pentagon-funded Hollywood pro-violence propaganda thing, I said earlier that that topic was not appropriate for discussion in this forum. ... unless it has a direct bearing on the story told in this movie...
I do make exactly this claim: compelling evidence exists that major themes and many details of ST09 reflect real world politics of the creators, including both content of the film and production support contracts Paramount has signed to provide the "right" view according to the military. Pointing historical and current objections to this use of Trek, such as Roddenberry's and those reacting badly to ST09 is, I think, can be considered a gray area.

You have stated the lack of direct bearing in this film is "clear", to which I would respectfully request this opinion be supported, because the consistency of portrayals of heroic militarism by the creators of this film seems as close to cause>effect directness as one could imagine.
 
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Devon, of course his post is his opinion. If you want to disagree, that's fine but inaccurate snarkiness merely indicates you're upset and are unwilling to put forward a decently supported objection.
No, it means I'm clarifying for him that his statement is his opinion.
IMO, the “clarification” appears to be more notable as a change of subject away from the criticism that off-screen chatter was generally executed badly. There is evidence the criticism is justified, and a dismissive “…for you” reply does not say anything related to the film or the criticism, discussing the author personally, an ad hominem fallacy.
"Inaccurate"?
Who said that?
IMO, “inaccurate” appeared in the term “inaccurate snarkiness”, referring to how some readers are likely to regard a reply of “…for you” when a poster shows courage to voice unpopular criticism of ST09 (here: bad dialog) that appears justified (by many examples, IMO).
IMO, math, philosophy/definitions, and logic are the only areas where we should expect simple “proofs”. In the real world, our knowledge ranges in uncertainty across a very broad spectrum from “beyond a reasonable doubt” to “all but impossible”, with most things between.

Could George Kirk really have had no escape from the Kelvin in the last minute? IMO: maybe; But since this main character doesn’t follow the most basic survival instincts, (protect his own life, his child, wife), we might expect some mention of why this failure occurred, or they should change the visuals so GK was actually doing something like maneuvering the ship for ramming, etc., during that last 58 sec.

We can keep in mind however, that this error was right after we were shown that George Kirk was able to pick off MIRV torpedoes substantially beyond any technology known to Starfleet, AND he was able to complete this miracle marksmanship perfectly with 100% accuracy, AND this was while battling a planet destroying-ship from the future able to wipe out fleets of Klingon battlecruisers without notable damage, outmassing the Kelvin by numbers for which we need scientific notation, AND he did this completely by himself with a ship that was essentially an antique piece of wreckage, on fire and exploding around him. Yet he still finds time to say the little things that make a woman feel special and supported.

If all those elements in one sequence does not exceed a relatively average limit for a plausible narrative elements, I would sincerely ask again for worse examples, as my last request seemed unproductive.

No, you're doing it again. You're saying "My opinion is fact."
Using “I personally think” and “there is ample evidence” seem (to me) to convey something different from "My opinion is fact". I apologize that I did not make this clearer.
I would like you to provide me with polls that states that "most people were not satisfied with the writing."
The claim is: evidence exists which would lead the average person, who was put in a position of creating minimal standards for narrative writing would find that this film does not meet them consistently enough to be “acceptable” for a major release. It has too many violations of rules like: believable characters should deal with the most important things in their situation first. Broken when Nero murders Robau, George commits suicide and does nothing but talk in the time he could be escaping (and talking), the Narada lets itself be rammed by sub-light debris representing what’s left of the Kelvin, none of the Narada crew do anything about the depraved lunatic on the bridge – for 25 years, a space doctor who doesn’t know the physiology of being in a vacuum, the list seems, IMO, huge. Hundreds are listed on the blog, and its only 2/3 complete.
So you couldn't prove it?
In the best possible case, all anyone can provide is overwhelming evidence, not proof. For assurances of infallible certainty, one must turn to faith. I think hundreds of pieces of evidence can make us pretty certain, perhaps even beyond a reasonable doubt.
You were talking about how one line must mean that they have a supposed opinion of their audience.
There is no claim “one line must mean” anything. When there exist many examples which illustrate consistent patterns we should stand by the preponderance of evidence until a better explanation comes along. I feel my assessments generally obey this rule, although I certainly make mistakes and am glad to have them refuted with better evidence.
…failing to recognize how most other Trek would have entire scenes where they spelled out the obvious, beat us over the head with it, or resolve the issues with unnecessary technobabble instead of real life issues.
I agree with you that most other Trek has similar defects, but even some of the films I regard as disasters of botched writing (i.e.: ST:TUC) don’t seem have anywhere near the same sheer quantity, or rapid-fire barrages appearing in this one. I am happy to admit I could well be mistaken, influenced by my bias toward wanting to like the movie and had high expectations, and also because I have not studied any others as carefully as ST09.
The distress of Nero's attack induced premature labor on JANUARY 4, 2233. (You'll notice I had no problem figuring the story out as I paid attention.)
Premature means the baby was not full-term, correct? If so, my question remains: why contradict this plot element by showing us a baby which is days old after full-term delivery combined and an alternate timeline derivation of the identical name? Why not simply suppress labor and keep the alleged preemie in the safest environment for it until the emergency passed? Also, we were told the distance to any help, much less Earth, was too far for the Kelvin to expect any help.
OK, why would a Romulan mining ship have Kirk's family tree on board, Spock's service record, and why would Nero spend his time memorizing such things in a level of detail that he could instantly recall them many years later?
First, I want you to show me where the Narada had this information.
When mining foreman Nero made his statement about Kirk’s father, I do not recall him having anything revealed in dialog about George. I want to stress: I have not gotten to this point of the film in my analysis, and I have no recollection of that line, I could even have stepped out of the film at that time, so my opinion on this is really unreliable.
In my ignorance, I assume we can guess Nero could have information from the prime timeline on the Kelvin’s crew manifest, and that he had somehow found the connection, or studied the Winona-George subspace chat after the Kelvin incident.
Even so, I consider myself fairly well informed on world politics, but I could not tell you the name of any parents of official enemies of the US. I know Admiral Yamamoto, or Saddam Hussein, but I couldn’t tell any of their parent's names, much less parent career – even with a fancy education. A lunatic miner who could pull up this quality of military intel mid-battle seems a bit unlikely IMO, and not someone we would normally describe as “a simple miner” which Nero claims he is.
Then I want you to think about this. I want you to think about this. Nero is from the same time frame as Elder Spock. Correct? Right. He is from Romulus, in which Spock is a prominent ambassador to Romulus (we know that Spock had been there as per "Unification.") Kirk is also a PROMINENT figure in history at this point. You don't think any Romulans aren't going to know a few things about these guys? At the very least most people would know that their Vulcan ambassador once served on the Enterprise.”
Can you name any important real world ambassador and anything about their history from 20 years ago? I can’t, and although I know people in the State Department, I wouldn’t bet money that I could call someone right now who could meet that standard either. Again, to me this seems very implausible for Nero's character but if there is reason to believe this, some (or all) of these objections are unjustified, I’m very interested in the evidence.
 
BurntSynapse, under the board rules, posting five consecutive posts is considered spamming. Since yours are clearly not contentless, I'll simply merge these for you and ask that you post no more than twice in a row in any given thread and that you make use of the board's Multi-Quote function to combine multiple replies into a single post.

I would ask two things: (1) Can you explain why you ask me to adhere to rules different (and more strict) the official board rules? (i.e.: limiting me to 2 rather than the official 4?) This seems to support more stringent requirements on those expressing criticism of the film than enthusiasts, a tendency suggested earlier.
I'm making no such request. In the link I posted above can be found this sentence:
Do not post more than twice in a row in the same thread.
That's the same rule which applies to everyone, and it has been in continuous effect here for quite a number of years. There's also a general guideline that people not start more than three new threads per day in any one forum, but nowhere am I aware of anything stating that four posts in a row by one person is acceptable, unless perhaps in the special case of a multi-part story presented sequentially in the FanFic forum or of posting a large document which necessarily needs to be broken into parts to get those parts in under the 5000 character-per-post limit. This "official 4" thing might be a rule from a different board, perhaps?

(2) Do you have any idea why multiquote does not work on Mozilla under Windows Vista 64? In fact, the manual html insertions are very labor intensive, and after a while I simply gave up trying to manually nest the QUOTE tags and went for sequential replies. I would love to be able to Multiquote. Clicking it only highlights the linked button image, but does not execute anything AFAICT.
I'm not aware of any reason why that feature shouldn't work with Vista 64. However, clicking on the the multi-quote button for a post (highlighting the label) is only the first step. What you want to do is click that button on each post to which you wish to respond and then, when you've selected (highlighted) them all, click on 'Post Reply' at the top or bottom of the page; the quoted posts should be arranged in the order in which you selected them, ready for you to type your replies. The only limit to how many you would reply to at once would be that 5000 character-per-post limit I mentioned earlier.

If this still doesn't work for you, let me know in post or by PM and I'll call it to the attention of our tech guy, so that he can take a look and work out the why of it.

As for this Pentagon-funded Hollywood pro-violence propaganda thing, I said earlier that that topic was not appropriate for discussion in this forum. ... unless it has a direct bearing on the story told in this movie...
I do make exactly this claim: compelling evidence exists that major themes and many details of ST09 reflect real world politics of the creators, including both content of the film and production support contracts Paramount has signed to provide the "right" view according to the military. Pointing historical and current objections to this use of Trek, such as Roddenberry's and those reacting badly to ST09 is, I think, can be considered a gray area.

You have stated the lack of direct bearing in this film is "clear", to which I would respectfully request this opinion be supported, because the consistency of portrayals of heroic militarism by the creators of this film seems as close to cause>effect directness as one could imagine.
Perhaps I chose my words poorly, and perhaps a case could be made for that as a topic of discussion in this forum, though I must say that I'm not at all enthusiastic about the idea; I initially began asking for the exclusion of real-world politics in this forum due to the tendency of some to engage in a little election-year trolling of those perceived to be supporting the "wrong" party, in threads having nothing whatsoever to do with those matters.

In a thread about the movie's four Oscar nominations, however, I'd still have to say that the subject was out of place, particularly considering the out-of-the-blue manner in which it was introduced (your first paragraph here); there had been nothing in the thread previously, including in your own prior post, to which that claim related. I'd say that the topic calls for its own thread, at the very least, and would still strongly suggest that another forum would be more appropriate, as it has much more to do with real-world partisan politics and policies than it does to do with Star Trek.
 
...more stringent requirements on those expressing criticism of the film than enthusiasts, a tendency suggested earlier.
I'm making no such request.
In rereading the responses, such bias appears to exist in your discussion of various guidelines. For example the offensive order from indranee for me to "can it", followed by the sarcastic and fallacious "like you were going to make a better movie" got your attention only insofar as prompting you to fault my failure to provide her "the best invitation for meaningful discussion".

Such a criticism appears extraordinary. I doubt it has ever been applied to enthusiastic supporters of ST09, but if my doubt is misplaced I would like to be corrected.

It was claimed that "everyone had heard everything in my post dozens of times before and months ago." That claim appears to be factually wrong, but if justifications do exist, some supporting evidence to enable my education would be polite and productive at the very least, would it not? Like some and unlike others, I enjoy having my positions changed by learning results of previous discussion "everyone heard dozens of times and months ago".

You have stated the lack of direct bearing in this film is "clear", to which I would respectfully request this opinion be supported, because the consistency of portrayals of heroic militarism by the creators of this film seems as close to cause>effect directness as one could imagine.

In a thread about the movie's four Oscar nominations, however, I'd still have to say that the subject was out of place, particularly considering the out-of-the-blue manner in which it was introduced (your first paragraph here); there had been nothing in the thread previously, including in your own prior post, to which that claim related.
"Out of the blue" is misleading. The linked paragraph was a direct response to use of what I believe was an insensitive, derogatory, and uninformed label of a post as "comically hyperbolic." That label was offered dismissively & without justification although it was described as "kind", another doubtful claim given with the type of certainty that might be considered excessively arrogant by some.

Personally, (and obviously) I'm not that put off by arrogance, as long as the person in question has their facts straight. Posts used for derisive labeling without support seem unworthy of respect, and are not part of productive discussion, IMO.

As for the film, it is true that I have very strong personal feelings about the effects of real world nationalist and militant propaganda, yet this bias of mine is acknowledged and open for criticism when discussing it with others who are advocating "Best Picture" awards for films replete with such messages. Such discussion appears more appropriate and meaningful than much of the other opinions (and the rare criteria) frequently offered, especially in relation to whether this film merits winning the awards mentioned in the thread subject.

"Bias" would seem a reasonable explanation when posts of less apparent relevance, and/or devoid of meaningful content, using sarcastic or disrespectful tone, etc. do not elicit calls for them to move to other threads when they support the film or attack critics, especially when justified critical views are urged to move elsewhere. Is bias possibly playing a role which discourages critical discussion here? I would appreciate help in understanding the what is causing the appearance of bias if the different reactions result from some other cause(s).

In fact, if there were evidence ST09's writing, staging, and overall storytelling was up to par, and that it was sufficient to justify awards in light of the many profound defects, many critics would be delighted learn of them, including me. Such evidence is warmly invited.
 
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In a thread about the movie's four Oscar nominations, however, I'd still have to say that the subject was out of place, particularly considering the out-of-the-blue manner in which it was introduced (your first paragraph here); there had been nothing in the thread previously, including in your own prior post, to which that claim related.
"Out of the blue" is misleading. The linked paragraph was a direct response to use of what I believe was an insensitive, derogatory, and uninformed label of a post as "comically hyperbolic." That label was offered dismissively & without justification although it was described as "kind", another doubtful claim given with the type of certainty that might be considered excessively arrogant by some.

You seriously believe that this post is not comically hyperbolic? :wtf:

Alienated? No. Outraged & betrayed? Yes.

What positive role models?
Winona Kirk: Provides unrealistic, unhelpful cliche of the screaming vaginal delivery.
George Kirk: Commits useless suicide by sitting and chatting with his wife long after all Kelvin functions are offline and there is no possible benefit to his presence on board.
James Kirk: Violent, criminal, suicidal, inept alcoholic.
New Spock: Vindictive, sarcastic, occasionally reasonable officer who abandons his post on the bridge during an emergency without justification.
Bones: Alcoholic doctor who falsifies records and risks patients lives while breaking medical ethics without any believable pretext, and repeats inaccurate urban legends regarding vacuum effects on humans.
Spock Prime: An unreasonable new-agey sage prop who advocates self-delusion and "faith" as preferable to careful study and hard work with available evidence.

I thought it was funny (comical in-fact). And while it may not have been true hyperbole (you may indeed actually feel this way) it certainly looked as if it was meant to elicit a strong reaction through the use of exaggeration (hyperbolic).
 
You seriously believe that this post is not comically hyperbolic? :wtf:

Alienated? No. Outraged & betrayed? Yes.

What positive role models?
Winona Kirk: Provides unrealistic, unhelpful cliche of the screaming vaginal delivery.
George Kirk: Commits useless suicide by sitting and chatting with his wife long after all Kelvin functions are offline and there is no possible benefit to his presence on board.
James Kirk: Violent, criminal, suicidal, inept alcoholic.
New Spock: Vindictive, sarcastic, occasionally reasonable officer who abandons his post on the bridge during an emergency without justification.
Bones: Alcoholic doctor who falsifies records and risks patients lives while breaking medical ethics without any believable pretext, and repeats inaccurate urban legends regarding vacuum effects on humans.
Spock Prime: An unreasonable new-agey sage prop who advocates self-delusion and "faith" as preferable to careful study and hard work with available evidence.

I thought it was funny (comical in-fact). And while it may not have been true hyperbole (you may indeed actually feel this way) it certainly looked as if it was meant to elicit a strong reaction through the use of exaggeration (hyperbolic).
I am happy to answer any specific example you feel is hyperbolic or exaggerated.
 
You seriously believe that this post is not comically hyperbolic? :wtf:

Alienated? No. Outraged & betrayed? Yes.

What positive role models?
Winona Kirk: Provides unrealistic, unhelpful cliche of the screaming vaginal delivery.
George Kirk: Commits useless suicide by sitting and chatting with his wife long after all Kelvin functions are offline and there is no possible benefit to his presence on board.
James Kirk: Violent, criminal, suicidal, inept alcoholic.
New Spock: Vindictive, sarcastic, occasionally reasonable officer who abandons his post on the bridge during an emergency without justification.
Bones: Alcoholic doctor who falsifies records and risks patients lives while breaking medical ethics without any believable pretext, and repeats inaccurate urban legends regarding vacuum effects on humans.
Spock Prime: An unreasonable new-agey sage prop who advocates self-delusion and "faith" as preferable to careful study and hard work with available evidence.

I thought it was funny (comical in-fact). And while it may not have been true hyperbole (you may indeed actually feel this way) it certainly looked as if it was meant to elicit a strong reaction through the use of exaggeration (hyperbolic).
I am happy to answer any specific example you feel is hyperbolic or exaggerated.

Hyperbolic is in the eye of the beholder. It needs no explanation.

I am quite certain that you can come up with specific examples that will serve to buttress your argument, as I generally agree with your examples. It is the "Outraged & betrayed", "Commits useless suicide", "without justification", "without any believable pretext", "unreasonable new-agey sage prop who advocates self-delusion", and the like - the subjective bits of your post that portend an unbalanced viewpoint - that causes me to want to not go further in discussion.
 
It is the "Outraged & betrayed", "Commits useless suicide", "without justification", "without any believable pretext", "unreasonable new-agey sage prop who advocates self-delusion", and the like - the subjective bits of your post that portend an unbalanced viewpoint - that causes me to want to not go further in discussion.
"Outraged & betrayed" is subjective, but refers to an objective claim that fans were not alienated (a subj exp) by ST09, so a good counter example will include a subj exp.

An argument I made supporting the adjective "useless" is appropriate according to normally accepted definitions is presented here.

Screaming vaginal delivery is a cliché?
Yes, and work like Abrams has caused so much fear and anxiety, health care professionals have to spend valuable time undoing the damage. I recommend the excellent documentary "Laboring Under an Illusion: Media Childbirth vs. the Real Thing"

what's wrong with the opening of NuTrek just wondering.
See the first Star Trek by the Minute post
 
Screaming vaginal delivery is a cliché?
Yes, and work like Abrams has caused so much fear and anxiety, health care professionals have to spend valuable time undoing the damage.

I speak from personal experience.

50% of the time there is screaming in vaginal delivery.

All times there has been epidural anesthesia (so even with anesthesia, there was vocalization).

At no time was I, the husband, away during the delivery. There was no particular reason why my wife would be necessarily upset. I had not, for instance, ordered my wife to evacuate while I stayed behind. I had not, for instance, just told my wife that I was going to die. My wife, for instance, had not just found out that not only would I not be there during the delivery, but also that I would not be there ever. Coupled with the fact that there has been screaming vaginal delivery in the past, I would not be at all surprised that there would be screaming vaginal delivery, if there were any extenuating emotional circumstances such as those depicted in the film.

I'll give the screaming vaginal delivery a pass.
 
Screaming vaginal delivery is a cliché?
Yes, and work like Abrams has caused so much fear and anxiety, health care professionals have to spend valuable time undoing the damage.

I speak from personal experience.
I speak from professional experience.

50% of the time there is screaming in vaginal delivery.
Even if your experience were 100%, it would still be a bad idea.

All times there has been epidural anesthesia (so even with anesthesia, there was vocalization).
Things like "vocalization" which are not dangerous or traumatic to the child (or viewers) are not any problem.

I'll give the screaming vaginal delivery a pass.
Against apathy, there is no argument.
 
Yes, and work like Abrams has caused so much fear and anxiety, health care professionals have to spend valuable time undoing the damage.

I speak from personal experience.
I speak from professional experience.

Even if your experience were 100%, it would still be a bad idea.

All times there has been epidural anesthesia (so even with anesthesia, there was vocalization).
Things like "vocalization" which are not dangerous or traumatic to the child (or viewers) are not any problem.

I'll give the screaming vaginal delivery a pass.
Against apathy, there is no argument.

I feel sorry for you :(
 
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