Ventral saucer impulse engines on nuEnterprise?

[Sabataage]

Here's how I've always took Impulse, Warp Engines and Thrusters (not that anyone asked me): Impulse is interplanetary-- travelling from Earth to Jupiter for instance in a few minutes. Warp is intersteller-- getting from Sol to Alpha Centauri in a few minutes. Thrusters are for tight maneuvers, emergency situations and relatively short trips. With thrusters the Enterprise could probably get from Earth's atmosphere to the Moon in a few minutes tijme. So, while its better than the chemical rockets we have now, you can't get anywhere signifigant with them alone.

As I sidebar: what I really hoped to see on ENT were impulse driven saucer ships flying around within solar systems. That would've established Impulse power as an intermediate step between rockets and warp speed, and that the secondary hull was added specifically with the advent of warp power. But alas...

 

[Tom Riley]

As I sidebar: what I really hoped to see on ENT were impulse driven saucer ships flying around within solar systems. That would've established Impulse power as an intermediate step between rockets and warp speed, and that the secondary hull was added specifically with the advent of warp power. But alas...

The only problem with that is that First Contact already established that warp drive was created in 2063... before Impulse... It seems more like Impulse was created specifically for moving at sublight speeds, not as a propulsion engine created between warp and thrusters.

 

[Timo]

First Contact already established that warp drive was created in 2063... before Impulse...

Umm, we have no data on when impulse engines might have been invented. For all we know, humans built the first ones in the late 1970s (in the Trek universe, that is), whereas everybody else had had them for a couple of thousand years at that point already.

All we know is that impulse engines "hadn't changed much" in the 200 years preceding TNG "Relics" - at least if we can trust LaForge's attempts at making old Scotty feel good by telling him that stuff even older than him was still more or less useful...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tom Riley]

First Contact already established that warp drive was created in 2063... before Impulse...

Umm, we have no data on when impulse engines might have been invented. For all we know, humans built the first ones in the late 1970s (in the Trek universe, that is), whereas everybody else had had them for a couple of thousand years at that point already.

All we know is that impulse engines "hadn't changed much" in the 200 years preceding TNG "Relics" - at least if we can trust LaForge's attempts at making old Scotty feel good by telling him that stuff even older than him was still more or less useful...

Timo Saloniemi

Right, and since there is no established data, most people assume that our two universes are the same except for the places stated to be different.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually, I'm pretty sure "impulse" is a more general term than a specific type of engine. Sort of like how you might describe a submarine as being equipped with "propellers," without saying anything meaningful about what's in the engine; it could be nuclear powered, could be diesel, could be electric, could be the tears of Ferengi tax collectors.

I think the term "impulse engine" only came into use in contrast with "warp engine" where an impulse engine is a device that produces motion through the use of force while a warp engine produces motion through the warping of space and/or gravity. It's even possible that "warp drive" doesn't actually describe a specific type of engine system either, but a CLASS of engine systems that operate on the same general principle (much the way "jet engine" can describe anything from turboprobs to ramjets, depending on the application).

 

[TIN_MAN]

Well, as far as the "real world" goes rocket engines are by definition "impulse" engines, however, that doesn't preclude a different usage of the term in the Trek universe? But I think the original intent of the use "impulse engine" in Star Trek was to differentiate it from "warp drive" and "space warp" engines which were clearly not "Newtonian thrust" type engines?
In any case, both the main rear saucer engines and all thruster engines could be generally refered to as "impulse engines", it just may be that we aren't always privy to the distinction being made between the two (or more) types in any given situation?

Edit: By the way, I just remembered, Nikola Tesla and T. Townsend Brown worked with what the latter reffered to as "impulse" technology, based on some -as yet unclear- connection between electromagnetism and gravity, whereby a sudden high voltage charge would result in thrust. So maybe this (in a perfected form) is what is being refered to in the ST universe?

 

[Glacial]

Forgot all about this thread!

I always assumed the impulse engine areas glowed red because they were the cooling system for the impulse reactors (hence impulse power). Dark when the appropriate reactors aren't powered up, brighter when the reactors are putting out more power.

Impulse working on the principle of space-time distortion drive, rather than a Newtonian rocket, is the only way I can think of to explain the NCC-1701 backing out of Spacedock at 1/4 impulse. And if it does move the ship by providing subluminal amounts of energy to the warp coils, it'd explain why the Kelvin's warp coils lit up when it rammed the Narada at impulse. It'd also explain how the Phoenix slowly slowly accelerated to light speed when they engaged the first warp engine, since it certainly wasn't burning a rocket.

It'd also wrap up that whole Romulan-their-power-is-simple-impulse-so-we-can-outrun-them thing -- say a big impulse reactor can put out enough juice to get you over light speed, maybe to Warp 2 or 3, so it'd be possible both for the Romulans to have an interstellar empire and for the 1701 to outrun them. And it'd explain why the humans developing a Warp 5 drive in ENT was such a big technological deal and so hard to do. Oo, and how the 1701-E could get out of the Briar Patch after dumping the core.

I like it 'cuz it's elegant.

 

[Tom Riley]

Also, in TNG, the Nth Degree, the 1701-D also goes in reverse at 1/4 impulse.

To address the above, I don't see how the Impulse Engines being referred to as Impulse power every once in a while makes any difference, as I'm very sure they've talked about losing warp power as well. Plus, the impulse engines providing energy to the warp coils wouldn't explain the Phoenix, because there was nothing to explain. There were no visible Impulse engines, and therefore no reason to assume they had any, plus the Phoenix didn't jump to warp slowly, they jumped to warp all at once just like any other ship they've shown in Star Trek, it just took longer for the warp field to build up and they had forward momentum from escaping earth's gravity already. It would also not explain the 1701-E and the Briar Patch AT ALL because they specifically said in the movie that they could only fly at like 1/4 Impulse while in the Briar Patch, they would have gotten out the same way, on Impulse, regardless of the condition of their warp drive. And as for after they emerged from the Briar Patch? Tow ship. Starfleet must have something in place for if a ship has to dump its core and didn't have warp capability.

As for the Romulans thing, Memory Alpha does speculate that Impulse engines could get you slightly above warp, so that does make sense, but I still don't buy the whole "Impulse engines powering the warp nacelles" for impulse drive. It's not implied to be that way anywhere in the Star Trek universe, not to mention Memory Alpha states that the Impulse engines are like a "fusion rocket" that uses a combination of plasma exhaust and subspace fields for propulsion. Plasma exhaust for thrust while at the same time creating subspace fields to improve propulsion.

Memory Alpha on Impulse Drive

 

[Glacial]

To address the above, I don't see how the Impulse Engines being referred to as Impulse power every once in a while makes any difference, as I'm very sure they've talked about losing warp power as well. Plus, the impulse engines providing energy to the warp coils wouldn't explain the Phoenix, because there was nothing to explain. There were no visible Impulse engines, and therefore no reason to assume they had any, plus the Phoenix didn't jump to warp slowly, they jumped to warp all at once just like any other ship they've shown in Star Trek, it just took longer for the warp field to build up and they had forward momentum from escaping earth's gravity already. It would also not explain the 1701-E and the Briar Patch AT ALL because they specifically said in the movie that they could only fly at like 1/4 Impulse while in the Briar Patch, they would have gotten out the same way, on Impulse, regardless of the condition of their warp drive. And as for after they emerged from the Briar Patch? Tow ship. Starfleet must have something in place for if a ship has to dump its core and didn't have warp capability.

As for the Romulans thing, Memory Alpha does speculate that Impulse engines could get you slightly above warp, so that does make sense, but I still don't buy the whole "Impulse engines powering the warp nacelles" for impulse drive. It's not implied to be that way anywhere in the Star Trek universe, not to mention Memory Alpha states that the Impulse engines are like a "fusion rocket" that uses a combination of plasma exhaust and subspace fields for propulsion. Plasma exhaust for thrust while at the same time creating subspace fields to improve propulsion.

Memory Alpha on Impulse Drive

Well, let's leave the non-canon speculation out of it, shall we I'm more interested in what we see on-screen.

Besides, if impulse was a fusion rocket, which has never been said on-screen, the whole going in reverse under impulse power bit wouldn't make any sense, because that'd require the complete opposite of the physical principle that makes a rocket a rocket. The subspace fields make perfect sense, and there just happens to be a couple of big long things that are designed to propel the ship through subspace, already bolted on to the back. The one of which, on the Kelvin, we saw get brighter when impulse power was ordered to crash the ship into the Narada. I think I remember an Enterprise episode where the 'subspace wake' of travelling at impulse ends up throwing the ship back in time, too. All of this suggests it's subspace propulsion, just not enough to get the ship faster than light.

I didn't mean to say that the Phoenix had impulse engines. During the Phoenix's slow acceleration, Riker says "approaching light speed," about a minute before they do the warp-jump FX, meaning since the engagement of the warp engine much earlier, the ship had accelerated at sublight considerably since launch -- unless that momentum from a Minuteman's rocket can, against the gravity well of Earth, push the ship close to the speed of light. So, feeding power to the warp coils makes a ship move, at any range of speeds, not just FTL. I'm saying that later ships had two sources of power -- an antimatter 'warp core' to energize the coils enough to bend subspace enough to go faster than light, and smaller (impulse) reactors to energize the coils enough to bend subspace enough to get around at sublight.

Of course, if the Romulans of Kirk's time, with a Star Empire, are fielding deep-space ships with 'simple impulse' as their power, impulse HAS to be able to get you over light speed, or that ship, and the entire Romulan Empire as of the 23rd century, cannot exist. So it sounds like just another power source that is a generation behind warp cores (matter-antimatte.)

All seems pretty reasonable to me!

 

[Tom Riley]

^ Right, we leave non canon speculation out of it and then this thread would consist of people going back and forth stating ONLY what the EXACTLY saw on screen, and they wouldn't be able to make any leaps or connections that weren't specifically spoken on screen. Besides, Memory Alpha only uses canon sources to back up everything they say, Memory Beta is the one that uses non canon sources, so anything Memory Alpha says has as much chance of being accurate as anything we say here if we only go by canon evidence. Anyways...

The Phoenix. If we are to go by only canon evidence, what we see and hear on screen, then all you have to do is LOOK at the shot of the Phoenix ANY time before it HITS warp speed and you can clearly see that it is traveling at a constant speed. From the moment it leaves Earth's atmosphere until the moment it achieves warp speed, it is moving rather slowly. Slow enough that the initial rocket could have caused that momentum. Now, we know that the warp drive bends subspace around the ship, creating a bubble which envelops the ship and distorts the space-time continuum, and propels it at light speed and beyond. Well, I propose that the reason Riker said that they were approaching light speed when they were clearly not moving any faster than before, is because he was talking about the time to lightspeed, not the acceleration left till light speed. It would make sense that an older and prototype warp engine might take longer to build up enough of a distortion in subspace before it had built up enough to push the ship into warp. Riker could easily have been referring to the engines having built up almost enough of a distortion to propel them to light speed, and was announcing that they were approaching the moment of light speed. How would you word that other than "approaching light speed"?

As for the Romulans of Kirk's time, It is not mentioned whether that is indeed a deep space vessel or not. It could easily have been a short range vessel launched from an area near the neutral zone, as they were not far from the neutral zone during their encounter. It could just as easily be that perhaps Impulse drive can get you above light speed, although it'd most likely be at some cost of being fuel inefficient or not as fast or Warp Drive, or something otherwise why wouldn't Starfleet use it for light speed? That being said, who's to say it uses the warp nacelles? Why would it have to? Do we even know if the two systems are compatible that way? As for the evidence of STXI's Kelvin, I wouldn't put it past them to have done that just to look "cool". And I loved that movie. I just think that connecting the two with so little on screen evidence and not even any dialogue to back it up is way too much of a stretch.

And let's not forget that the Impulse Reactor is the component that provides power to the Impulse Engine. If Impulse uses the warp nacelles for propulsion, then the power would need only move from the Impulse Reactor to the Nacelles... what use would another engine or drive system be if not for the actual propulsion? It really is just too much to say that the Impulse engine uses the warp nacelles for propulsion. The only thing that really points towards that is the one scene with the Kelvin. The whole Impulse in reverse can be explained by the use of subspace fields generated by the impulse engines themselves, as Memory Alpha suggests they have in addition to the rocket-based propulsive effect. It could also be explained by smaller impulse engines being located at various other points around the ship, as was questioned in the original topic.

I also find it very telling that the Impulse engines are always located in great areas to provide excellent thrust for forward motion.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

If you have anything at all negative to say about this movie you are just attacked for your opinion. It is just ridiculous. You folks on all these TrekXI threads are just clinical! Good times!

That is so true. I've been on several Trek boards and I have been berated, insulted, and called names on many occasions by STXI fans. It's no big deal. I'm mature enough to handle such nonsense. But it is rediculous to have to put up with the $hit simply because you don't share their opinion.