Star Trek Receives Four Oscar Noms...all Technical Awards

[Tyberius]

There do exist some rules, like something "out of visual range" is not normally something that is simultaneously blinding everyone on the Bridge.

The sun was not out of visual range. The anomaly was.

Then how do we explain the preceding external shot, where we are looking past the Kelvin and see the huge anomaly while the subspace chatter describes "It looks like a lightening storm"?

I explain it with: I was wrong.

(Starfield)
COM VOICE 1: U.S.S. Kelvin, go for Starfleet base.
COM VOICE 2: Starfleet base, we've sent you a transmission, did you receive?
COM VOICE 3: Kelvin, have you double checked those readings?
COM VOICE 2: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy here. You should see this, it looks like a lightning storm.
COM VOICE 1: What you've sent us doesn't seem possible.
COM VOICE 2: Yes ma'am, I understand that's why we sent it.
(Kelvin bridge)
ROBAU: Report.
OFFICER: Still out of visual range. Give me 20 seconds.
COM: Alert Captain Robau that Starfleet advises your ship to proceed with caution.
ROBAU: Polarize the viewscreen.
OFFICER: Captain, we have visual.
OFFICER: Repeat. Could this be Klingon?
OFFICER: Negative Lieutenant. You're 75,000 kilometers from the Klingon border.
OFFICER: Captain, are you seeing this?
ROBAU: My God!
(The Narada completes its exit from the Black Hole)

So, you are wrong too.

The Sun and the Anomaly were visible. Robau ordered the viewscreen polarized and the Narada became visible (finally emerging from the visible anomaly).

 

[BurntSynapse]

The sun was not out of visual range. The anomaly was.

Then how do we explain the preceding external shot, where we are looking past the Kelvin and see the huge anomaly while the subspace chatter describes "It looks like a lightening storm"?

I explain it with: I was wrong.

(Starfield)
COM VOICE 1: U.S.S. Kelvin, go for Starfleet base.
COM VOICE 2: Starfleet base, we've sent you a transmission, did you receive?
COM VOICE 3: Kelvin, have you double checked those readings?
COM VOICE 2: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy here. You should see this, it looks like a lightning storm.
COM VOICE 1: What you've sent us doesn't seem possible.
COM VOICE 2: Yes ma'am, I understand that's why we sent it.
(Kelvin bridge)
ROBAU: Report.
OFFICER: Still out of visual range. Give me 20 seconds.
COM: Alert Captain Robau that Starfleet advises your ship to proceed with caution.
ROBAU: Polarize the viewscreen.
OFFICER: Captain, we have visual.
OFFICER: Repeat. Could this be Klingon?
OFFICER: Negative Lieutenant. You're 75,000 kilometers from the Klingon border.
OFFICER: Captain, are you seeing this?
ROBAU: My God!
(The Narada completes its exit from the Black Hole)

So, you are wrong too.

The Sun and the Anomaly were visible. Robau ordered the viewscreen polarized and the Narada became visible (finally emerging from the visible anomaly).

First, I would point out that no one had ever claimed the "this" or "it" was anything other than the lightening storm, and you seem to imply now that the discussion is about the Narada, seemingly prior to any evidence of that ship's existence.

If you can share some reason to consider that the topic of discussion had changed without warning from the anomaly to the ship that was about to emerge from it, then I would be more likely to consider that claim defensible, but it seems pretty shaky, especially in light of the abysmal overall state of the rest of the writing.

If there were some evidence in support of what I believe you are claiming, I might be willing to also overlook the lovingly rendered representation of the event horizon as flat, which would make the "range" to the Narada identical to that of the anomaly, even though it was supposed to be traveling through time.

If your interpretation were correct, do we agree the Kelvin would have had to be able to detect the Narada arriving from the future and its rate of time travel into the past within the singularity to pinpoint the time of its emergence? To me, that seems a real stretch.

Did you think anything was odd about no one acting to prevent blinding all the Bridge officers and crew until Robau ordered it? Personally, I think we ought to expect starships would have procedures for safely visiting the areas near stars.

 

[Tyberius]

Then how do we explain the preceding external shot, where we are looking past the Kelvin and see the huge anomaly while the subspace chatter describes "It looks like a lightening storm"?

I explain it with: I was wrong.

(Starfield)
COM VOICE 1: U.S.S. Kelvin, go for Starfleet base.
COM VOICE 2: Starfleet base, we've sent you a transmission, did you receive?
COM VOICE 3: Kelvin, have you double checked those readings?
COM VOICE 2: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy here. You should see this, it looks like a lightning storm.
COM VOICE 1: What you've sent us doesn't seem possible.
COM VOICE 2: Yes ma'am, I understand that's why we sent it.
(Kelvin bridge)
ROBAU: Report.
OFFICER: Still out of visual range. Give me 20 seconds.
COM: Alert Captain Robau that Starfleet advises your ship to proceed with caution.
ROBAU: Polarize the viewscreen.
OFFICER: Captain, we have visual.
OFFICER: Repeat. Could this be Klingon?
OFFICER: Negative Lieutenant. You're 75,000 kilometers from the Klingon border.
OFFICER: Captain, are you seeing this?
ROBAU: My God!
(The Narada completes its exit from the Black Hole)

So, you are wrong too.

The Sun and the Anomaly were visible. Robau ordered the viewscreen polarized and the Narada became visible (finally emerging from the visible anomaly).

First, I would point out that no one had ever claimed the "this" or "it" was anything other than the lightening storm, and you seem to imply now that the discussion is about the Narada, seemingly prior to any evidence of that ship's existence.

I am not implying that.

I am saying that both the Sun and the Anomaly were visible. The Sun was tanning the bridge crew, Rabau already had a tan, so he ordered the viewscreen polarized. The Anomaly looked like a lightning storm in space. The only thing out of visual range was the Narada which was not visible either because it had not emerged from the anomaly or the crew had not put on their Ray-Ban's.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I guess you weren't bothered either by the fact that 75k frequent flyer km could get you upgraded to 1st class flying to Cleveland, but on the scale of interstellar space it’s insignificant?

Even if we generously assume something like the Kelvin were this far from the Zone of McGuffin, a 1960’s Apollo capsule could coast that distance in less time that this film, while at Warp 1 (light speed), it would take the most pitiful interstellar vessel a whopping one quarter second. The human eye takes at least 10% longer than this to quickly blink, so the "OFFICER" answer makes no apparent sense.

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

...with dialog like this, people STILL are thinking "Best Picture"? That's kind of depressing.

 

[startrekrcks]

I think all technical awards are good it's better then not getting none at all

 

[Jeyl]

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

This is another big gripe I have with Trek09. A ton of information that actually gives details into what's going on is said through obvious ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) additions. Just count how much info is said off camera compared to being said on camera. One of those lines an officer saying that the Kelvin was still 75,000 kilometers away from Klingon Space......which would actually be a pretty solid reason to consider the possibility that it may be Klingon instead of a plain 'Negative'.

Would it have killed them to, I don't know, have the Captain say those lines? You don't even know what his name is unless you hear the background chatter.

The worst offender is the "A life I will deprive you of just as I did your father's". It's so obvious that was put in late into the game because nothing comes of it. It felt like JJ thought audiences would forget that Nero was responsible for what happened to the Kelvin.

 

[Tyberius]

I guess you weren't bothered either by the fact that 75k frequent flyer km could get you upgraded to 1st class flying to Cleveland, but on the scale of interstellar space it’s insignificant?

Even if we generously assume something like the Kelvin were this far from the Zone of McGuffin, a 1960’s Apollo capsule could coast that distance in less time that this film, while at Warp 1 (light speed), it would take the most pitiful interstellar vessel a whopping one quarter second. The human eye takes at least 10% longer than this to quickly blink, so the "OFFICER" answer makes no apparent sense.

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

...with dialog like this, people STILL are thinking "Best Picture"? That's kind of depressing.

We don't know how being 75,000 kilometers away from the Klingon boarder impacts the decision. We don't know whether the "this" in the question "Could this be Klingon?" refers to the anomaly or the, just out of visual range, entity inside the anomaly. It could be that the questioner sees Klingons as being the boogieman behind every anomaly and the answerer is assuring him that it is not Klingon, because they are so close to the border, and they would have seen any approaching ships as they attempt to pass the sensor grid.

 

[JarodRussell]

I guess you weren't bothered either by the fact that 75k frequent flyer km could get you upgraded to 1st class flying to Cleveland, but on the scale of interstellar space it’s insignificant?

Even if we generously assume something like the Kelvin were this far from the Zone of McGuffin, a 1960’s Apollo capsule could coast that distance in less time that this film, while at Warp 1 (light speed), it would take the most pitiful interstellar vessel a whopping one quarter second. The human eye takes at least 10% longer than this to quickly blink, so the "OFFICER" answer makes no apparent sense.

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

...with dialog like this, people STILL are thinking "Best Picture"? That's kind of depressing.

We don't know how being 75,000 kilometers away from the Klingon boarder impacts the decision. We don't know whether the "this" in the question "Could this be Klingon?" refers to the anomaly or the, just out of visual range, entity inside the anomaly. It could be that the questioner sees Klingons as being the boogieman behind every anomaly and the answerer is assuring him that it is not Klingon, because they are so close to the border, and they would have seen any approaching ships as they attempt to pass the sensor grid.

Since 75,000 kilometers is like half a second at full impulse, the "Negative" in response is ridiculous. And "75,000 km away from the Klingon border" means they were deep inside the Neutral Zone, not even in Federation space.

 

[Tyberius]

I guess you weren't bothered either by the fact that 75k frequent flyer km could get you upgraded to 1st class flying to Cleveland, but on the scale of interstellar space it’s insignificant?

Even if we generously assume something like the Kelvin were this far from the Zone of McGuffin, a 1960’s Apollo capsule could coast that distance in less time that this film, while at Warp 1 (light speed), it would take the most pitiful interstellar vessel a whopping one quarter second. The human eye takes at least 10% longer than this to quickly blink, so the "OFFICER" answer makes no apparent sense.

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

...with dialog like this, people STILL are thinking "Best Picture"? That's kind of depressing.

We don't know how being 75,000 kilometers away from the Klingon boarder impacts the decision. We don't know whether the "this" in the question "Could this be Klingon?" refers to the anomaly or the, just out of visual range, entity inside the anomaly. It could be that the questioner sees Klingons as being the boogieman behind every anomaly and the answerer is assuring him that it is not Klingon, because they are so close to the border, and they would have seen any approaching ships as they attempt to pass the sensor grid.

Since 75,000 kilometers is like half a second at full impulse, the "Negative" in response is ridiculous. And "75,000 km away from the Klingon border" means they were deep inside the Neutral Zone, not even in Federation space.

Then the Negative response must be to another question.

Or we misheard the 75,000 kilometers.

 

[BurntSynapse]

I can't tell you how many times I listened to the "75k" segment to get the dialog almost correct for my blog...it was very garbled in the cam version I had.

I suppose if one is determined to excuse horrific writing, one can insert fantastic events and just claim the film cut them out due to length, but that seems more like interpreting a religious text than attempting to be reasonable.

Did you extract a subtitle track for the quote?

 

[BurntSynapse]

A ton of information that actually gives details into what's going on is said through obvious ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) additions. Just count how much info is said off camera compared to being said on camera. One of those lines an officer saying that the Kelvin was still 75,000 kilometers away from Klingon Space......which would actually be a pretty solid reason to consider the possibility that it may be Klingon instead of a plain 'Negative'.

Would it have killed them to, I don't know, have the Captain say those lines? You don't even know what his name is unless you hear the background chatter.

Like the re-imagining of Trek, nauseating shaky-cam, and endless lens flares, I don't really object since these don't prevent the telling of a great story. My problem with the film is that they did a world class makeup job on a bad, poorly thought out story, with nonsensical dialog, and an endless stream of alternating miracles with all but impossible disasters driving the "plot".

The worst offender is the "A life I will deprive you of just as I did your father's". It's so obvious that was put in late into the game because nothing comes of it. It felt like JJ thought audiences would forget that Nero was responsible for what happened to the Kelvin.

I think your objection is valid for many lines throughout the film, and to me indicates the opinion AbramsCo has of their audience. This line from Nero which you quote must be near the end, when I was barely able to watch. When I was trying to make sense of the story, I wondered why Nero would know or care about details of Spock's service record. In this case, why would Nero know Kirk's family tree?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Taking umbrage at Star Trek being used for propaganda by the military and a compliant chicken hawk (Abrams) which has simultaneously helped murder people around the world in massive numbers, is wrecking our economy and has all but destroyed previously good, moral people like my best friend...

I feel like I missed something important here? This outburst doesn't match with the link back to your previous post.

When was JJ's ST used to murder people around the world and destroy good, moral friends?

 

[Jeyl]

Here's one.

Crew 1: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy. You should see this! It looks like a lightning storm!
*10 seconds later*
Crew 2: Still out of visual range.

/facepalm

I don't know about anyone else here, but I do believe the lightning coming from the anomaly was being reflected off the Kelvin's hull seconds before we cut to the bridge. I don't think that qualifies as being out of 'visual range'. Was it the gravity sensors that made it look like a lightning storm? I don't think so because I never once used gravity to determine what lightning was.

If Star Trek wins any technical award, I'm going to laugh out loud.

 

[JarodRussell]

Yeah, all that off screen communications chatter just to make the bridge feel busy was executed pretty badly.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Here's one.
Crew 1: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy. You should see this! It looks like a lightning storm!
*10 seconds later*
Crew 2: Still out of visual range.

The gravitational sensors are on a probe the ship has already fired toward the anomaly but the Kelvin itself is not yet in visual range?

It's rather similar to the Epsilon 9 space station in ST:TMP monitoring the intercepted Klingon signals of V'ger's attack. I recall people very angrily assuming that scene meant that the Klingons were sending info direct to Epsilon 9.

 

[Devon]

Yeah, all that off screen communications chatter just to make the bridge feel busy was executed pretty badly.

....For you.

Thanks.

Another strange thing is: why would anyone ask if a weird lightning storm phenomenon were Klingon? No one looks out a window and asks whether the clouds are hockey fans.

This is another big gripe I have with Trek09. A ton of information that actually gives details into what's going on is said through obvious ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) additions. Just count how much info is said off camera compared to being said on camera. One of those lines an officer saying that the Kelvin was still 75,000 kilometers away from Klingon Space......which would actually be a pretty solid reason to consider the possibility that it may be Klingon instead of a plain 'Negative'.

Would it have killed them to, I don't know, have the Captain say those lines? You don't even know what his name is unless you hear the background chatter.

The worst offender is the "A life I will deprive you of just as I did your father's". It's so obvious that was put in late into the game because nothing comes of it. It felt like JJ thought audiences would forget that Nero was responsible for what happened to the Kelvin.

This is obviously at the point of stooping extremely low for criticisms, such of which could be applied to about, oh 99% of other Trek or anything else in life. Basically non issues.

[I think your objection is valid for many lines throughout the film,

Name all of them.

and to me indicates the opinion AbramsCo has of their audience.

I suggest you try watching other Star Trek, then come back to us.

This line from Nero which you quote must be near the end, when I was barely able to watch.

Dramatic angle to exaggerate "horridness."

When I was trying to make sense of the story,

Nothing difficult about it.

I wondered why Nero would know or care about details of Spock's service record. In this case, why would Nero know Kirk's family tree?

You should be able to figure that out on your own, or did they need to spell it out? But then, what would they "think of their audience?"

If Star Trek wins any technical award, I'm going to laugh out loud.

...because?

 

[BurntSynapse]

Yeah, all that off screen communications chatter just to make the bridge feel busy was executed pretty badly.

....For you.

Thanks.

Devon, of course his post is his opinion. If you want to disagree, that's fine but inaccurate snarkiness merely indicates you're upset and are unwilling to put forward a decently supported objection.

"Inaccurate"? In fact, Jarod's issues are shared by many, so claiming "For you" is misleading at the very least.

Although I personally think making the bridge "busy" adds a sense of depth which I enjoy, there is ample evidence that the writing in this film does not meet what most people would accept as minimal standards for storytelling, in both the poorly written background chatter, as well as the main plot line.

This is obviously at the point of stooping extremely low for criticisms, such of which could be applied to about, oh 99% of other Trek or anything else in life. Basically non issues.

I agree that 99% of films have such errors, but I cannot help but notice that ST09 seems to have more than any other Trek film, they seem more egregious, and the heroic portrayal of aggression and escalating violence as virtues does admittedly add to my sensitivity toward other errors in the movie.

Name all of them.

Some readers might question whether an objection is worthwhile if its criticisms are based a bit too much on false statements combined with unreasonable orders to others, and often delivered in a snarky manner.

However, I thought that naming all of them would be a good idea but there were so many, I have to break the film down, and decided chronological listing of errors would be most convenient for indexing and documenting most of the errors. The review has gotten as far as the red Delta Vega monster that can pick up a furry 2 ton predator, crush it with one bite, throw it 100 meters, roll down a glacial avalanche 200 meters and get up fighting, yet it becomes completely helpless when Kirk is defenselessly ensnared in the miracle cave that appeared directly in front of him as he ran blindly through a snowstorm.

I suggest you try watching other Star Trek, then come back to us.

Thanks for sharing your opinion about what I should do, but this again does not really qualify as an objection. If you feel there is an example of a worse written Trek, what would it be?

Dramatic angle to exaggerate "horridness."

False.

My statement was an accurate reflection of my state at the time, and since I don't recall the line, it may have been when I went to the bathroom, but it is certainly not in the first 75 minutes.

Nothing difficult about it.

Perhaps you can explain why Kirk's mother had a full-term baby on the edge of Federation space prior to Nero's alteration of the timeline? There are something like 200 other issues you may find equally trivial to answer on my blog. If you can answer them with reasonable justifications, I'm happy to withdraw any criticism or change any opinion.

I wondered why Nero would know or care about details of Spock's service record. In this case, why would Nero know Kirk's family tree?

You should be able to figure that out on your own, or did they need to spell it out? But then, what would they "think of their audience?"

OK, why would a Romulan mining ship have Kirk's family tree on board, Spock's service record, and why would Nero spend his time memorizing such things in a level of detail that he could instantly recall them many years later?

 

[BurntSynapse]

Here's one.
Crew 1: Our gravitational sensors are going crazy. You should see this! It looks like a lightning storm!
*10 seconds later*
Crew 2: Still out of visual range.

The gravitational sensors are on a probe the ship has already fired toward the anomaly but the Kelvin itself is not yet in visual range?

It's rather similar to the Epsilon 9 space station in ST:TMP monitoring the intercepted Klingon signals of V'ger's attack. I recall people very angrily assuming that scene meant that the Klingons were sending info direct to Epsilon 9.

I would be perfectly willing to grant your hypothetical probe or any number of other possibilities except for the fact that the Kelvin was deliberately shown onscreen with the anomaly in the opening establishment shot, presumably without any weird magnification. Since the TMP dialogue described the "intercepted" transmission, and the battlecruiser was not shown onscreen in range of Epsilon 9, the situation does not seem sufficiently similar, unless there is something else to support these situations are approx. equal.

Taking umbrage at Star Trek being used for propaganda by the military and a compliant chicken hawk (Abrams) which has simultaneously helped murder people around the world in massive numbers, is wrecking our economy and has all but destroyed previously good, moral people like my best friend...

I feel like I missed something important here? This outburst doesn't match with the link back to your previous post.

When was JJ's ST used to murder people around the world and destroy good, moral friends?

I see how that could be confusing. ST09 is part of the pro-violence, pro-military propaganda that JJ&Co have made a great deal of money producing. That propaganda has assisted massive atrocities around the world. The first film made under that new Pentagon program was "Top Gun", and the techniques for assisting Hollywood in romanticizing murder and warfare have continued to evolve and the methods of economic leverage to encourage corporate complicity undergo similar refinement by very smart, dedicated people in the military and intel communities. The Transformers films and ST09 are more recent examples which indoctrinate viewers in the mythology of noble, defensive war and invasion.

 

[Neumann]

Taking umbrage at Star Trek being used for propaganda by the military and a compliant chicken hawk (Abrams) which has simultaneously helped murder people around the world in massive numbers, is wrecking our economy and has all but destroyed previously good, moral people like my best friend...

I feel like I missed something important here? This outburst doesn't match with the link back to your previous post.

When was JJ's ST used to murder people around the world and destroy good, moral friends?

I see how that could be confusing. ST09 is part of the pro-violence, pro-military propaganda that JJ&Co have made a great deal of money producing. That propaganda has assisted massive atrocities around the world. The first film made under that new Pentagon program was "Top Gun", and the techniques for assisting Hollywood in romanticizing murder and warfare have continued to evolve and the methods of economic leverage to encourage corporate complicity undergo similar refinement by very smart, dedicated people in the military and intel communities. The Transformers films and ST09 are more recent examples which indoctrinate viewers in the mythology of noble, defensive war and invasion.

And I suppose you are likely to vote for Chavez as well, right? Why don't you come down here so we can chat about this "Military Industrial Complex" of yours...

 

[Devon]

Devon, of course his post is his opinion. If you want to disagree, that's fine but inaccurate snarkiness merely indicates you're upset and are unwilling to put forward a decently supported objection.

No, it means I'm clarifying for him that his statement is his opinion.

"Inaccurate"?

Who said that?

In fact, Jarod's issues are shared by many,

Proof?

so claiming "For you" is misleading at the very least.

It's accurate, don't worry about it.

Although I personally think making the bridge "busy" adds a sense of depth which I enjoy, there is ample evidence that the writing in this film does not meet what most people would accept as minimal standards for storytelling, in both the poorly written background chatter, as well as the main plot line.

No, you're doing it again. You're saying "My opinion is fact." I would like you to provide me with polls that states that "most people were not satisfied with the writing."

However, I thought that naming all of them would be a good idea but there were so many, I have to break the film down, and decided chronological listing of errors would be most convenient for indexing and documenting most of the errors. The review has gotten as far as the red Delta Vega monster that can pick up a furry 2 ton predator, crush it with one bite, throw it 100 meters, roll down a glacial avalanche 200 meters and get up fighting, yet it becomes completely helpless when Kirk is defenselessly ensnared in the miracle cave that appeared directly in front of him as he ran blindly through a snowstorm.

So you couldn't prove it?

Thanks for sharing your opinion about what I should do, but this again does not really qualify as an objection.

You were talking about how one line must mean that they have a supposed opinion of their audience, yet while failing to recognize how most other Trek would have entire scenes where they spelled out the obvious, beat us over the head with it, or resolve the issues with unnecessary technobabble instead of real life issues (thus why Star Trek had declining ratings almost consistently after Season 5 of TNG.)

If you feel there is an example of a worse written Trek, what would it be?

That isn't what I said (though most of "Voyager," a lot of "Enterprise," some of TNG, some of DS9, some of TOS, some of the films.)

False.

My statement was an accurate reflection of my state at the time, and since I don't recall the line, it may have been when I went to the bathroom, but it is certainly not in the first 75 minutes.

But you "were barely able to watch it," so it wouldn't have mattered.

Perhaps you can explain why Kirk's mother had a full-term baby on the edge of Federation space prior to Nero's alteration of the timeline?

No problem. The distress of Nero's attack induced premature labor on JANUARY 4, 2233. (You'll notice I had no problem figuring the story out as I paid attention.)

OK, why would a Romulan mining ship have Kirk's family tree on board, Spock's service record, and why would Nero spend his time memorizing such things in a level of detail that he could instantly recall them many years later?

First, I want you to show me where the Narada had this information.

Then I want you to think about this. I want you to think about this. Nero is from the same time frame as Elder Spock. Correct? Right. He is from Romulus, in which Spock is a prominent ambassador to Romulus (we know that Spock had been there as per "Unification.") Kirk is also a PROMINENT figure in history at this point. You don't think any Romulans aren't going to know a few things about these guys? At the very least most people would know that their Vulcan ambassador once served on the Enterprise.

Anything else you want to know?

BTW, you should perhaps not triple post.