Military Tribunal or Criminal Court?

[TheLonelySquire]

However, our track record is that we help people and we are the beacon of freedom for people across the globe. Don't agree? Sorry. We are.

And it is this ignorance, arrogance, nationalism, refusal to accept responsibility and general we're-better-than-everyone-else attitude that causes the rest of the planet to grind their teeth at Americans. Ask many of the people of all those countries I listed for you if America is "a beacon of freedom" and "helps". But you won't listen, will you? As far as you're concerned, America is perfect, everywhere else imperfect and lesser.

I'm sorry, but when choosing between my comments in this thread and yours, I'm guessing most non-Americans will come down on "my side" of this. Not that that matters. Being non-Americans, unable to bask in the glory and light that shines from Uncle Sam's posterior and sets some small socialist nation on fire, they are presumably discounted from your estimation of worth anyway.

Americans like you refuse to accept responsibility for your nation's aggression, all the deaths and destruction it caused, yet you expect the world to cry foul whenever your people are on the receiving end.

Compulsory conscription for all your sons. Death penalty. Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory in many areas. Calls to bomb other countries with nukes. Oh yes, beacon of civilization you Americans are.

Your response will of course be a proud "yes". I don't know why I bother. I'd just like to think maybe we can prevent some sort of devastating conflict, hopefully by trying, futile as it may be, to convince some Americans that, contrary to what they're taught, they are not better than anyone else.

I acccept and understand that the USA has and will continue to make mistakes. No doubt about it. And the USA is far from perfect.

However, someone has to be the best and the USA certainly is that. That being my opinion, I don't discount the worth of people in other countries that demonstrate their worth. I simply maintain we are indeed the greatest country on the planet.

And there are always degrees of greater and lesser, especially when the lesser nations in question happen to be socialist. You mentioned socialism first, sorry.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Then your avatar is oddly appropriate.

Oh, it's appropriate alright! Give me a President with an itchy finger anyday. Ahh, the days of "nucular"! Coming soon to an administration near you.

Fine. Move to Iran.

I thought they didn't have a nucular weapons program? Or are you now believing that they do?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

However, our track record is that we help people and we are the beacon of freedom for people across the globe. Don't agree? Sorry. We are.

And it is this ignorance, arrogance, nationalism, refusal to accept responsibility and general we're-better-than-everyone-else attitude that causes the rest of the planet to grind their teeth at Americans. Ask many of the people of all those countries I listed for you if America is "a beacon of freedom" and "helps". But you won't listen, will you? As far as you're concerned, America is perfect, everywhere else imperfect and lesser.

I'm sorry, but when choosing between my comments in this thread and yours, I'm guessing most non-Americans will come down on "my side" of this. Not that that matters. Being non-Americans, unable to bask in the glory and light that shines from Uncle Sam's posterior and sets some small socialist nation on fire, they are presumably discounted from your estimation of worth anyway.

Americans like you refuse to accept responsibility for your nation's aggression, all the deaths and destruction it caused, yet you expect the world to cry foul whenever your people are on the receiving end.

Compulsory conscription for all your sons. Death penalty. Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory in many areas. Calls to bomb other countries with nukes. Oh yes, beacon of civilization you Americans are.

Your response will of course be a proud "yes". I don't know why I bother. I'd just like to think maybe we can prevent some sort of devastating conflict, hopefully by trying, futile as it may be, to convince some Americans that, contrary to what they're taught, they are not better than anyone else.

I acccept and understand that the USA has and will continue to make mistakes. No doubt about it. And the USA is far from perfect.

However, someone has to be the best and the USA certainly is that. That being my opinion, I don't discount the worth of people in other countries that demonstrate their worth. I simply maintain we are indeed the greatest country on the planet.

And there are always degrees of greater and lesser, especially when the lesser nations in question happen to be socialist. You mentioned socialism first, sorry.

I apologise if I got carried away or overly aggressive, or if I exaggerated your views. I can get on my high horse over this sort of thing (which I don't apologise for, because my personal ethics insist upon it, but I do acknowledge).

Okay, you think the USA is best. Well, okay. But if you want it to stay "the best", it's probably not a good idea to promote some of the things you've been promoting. Calling for nuclear strikes against other nations and showing casual disregard for these cultures and communities will dent that greatness, surely, even if you feel up until now it hasn't been?

 

[Misfit Toy]

Oh, it's appropriate alright! Give me a President with an itchy finger anyday. Ahh, the days of "nucular"! Coming soon to an administration near you.

Fine. Move to Iran.

I thought they didn't have a nucular weapons program? Or are you now believing that they do?

You wanted a President with an itchy finger. Go on. Man up and move to Iran.

 

[Marc]

One thing that should be mentioned in here is that just because a case is being handled by a military tribunal does not mean that they will not have due process and all that fun stuff. As a matter of fact, they might be better off having military personal serving as the jury as opposed to new yorkers.

Problem is that tribunerals that took place while Bush was president did deny due process. Coerced testimony was allowed, heresay evidence was allowed, cross examination of prosecution witness was denied, full details of accusations against the accused weren't allowed. All this was detailed for the trial of david hicks from Australia.

Bush set the courts up so that the guilty verdicts were pretty much a given.

Maybe you're right that military courts would be better (even though I maintain terrorism is an offence in the civil jurisdication and other terrorism suspects have been tried under it) but not under the terms that Bush had them operate.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Bush set the courts up so that the guilty verdicts were pretty much a given.

Maybe you're right that military courts would be better (even though I maintain terrorism is an offence in the civil jurisdication and other terrorism suspects have been tried under it) but not under the terms that Bush had them operate.

And given the hatred, anger and paranoia stirred up all across the West by the terrorist threat, those will almost certainly be the terms we end up with.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Fine. Move to Iran.

I thought they didn't have a nucular weapons program? Or are you now believing that they do?

You wanted a President with an itchy finger. Go on. Man up and move to Iran.

Keep trying.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I thought they didn't have a nucular weapons program? Or are you now believing that they do?

You wanted a President with an itchy finger. Go on. Man up and move to Iran.

Keep trying.

What, you're backpedaling now?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

And it is this ignorance, arrogance, nationalism, refusal to accept responsibility and general we're-better-than-everyone-else attitude that causes the rest of the planet to grind their teeth at Americans. Ask many of the people of all those countries I listed for you if America is "a beacon of freedom" and "helps". But you won't listen, will you? As far as you're concerned, America is perfect, everywhere else imperfect and lesser.

I'm sorry, but when choosing between my comments in this thread and yours, I'm guessing most non-Americans will come down on "my side" of this. Not that that matters. Being non-Americans, unable to bask in the glory and light that shines from Uncle Sam's posterior and sets some small socialist nation on fire, they are presumably discounted from your estimation of worth anyway.

Americans like you refuse to accept responsibility for your nation's aggression, all the deaths and destruction it caused, yet you expect the world to cry foul whenever your people are on the receiving end.

Compulsory conscription for all your sons. Death penalty. Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory in many areas. Calls to bomb other countries with nukes. Oh yes, beacon of civilization you Americans are.

Your response will of course be a proud "yes". I don't know why I bother. I'd just like to think maybe we can prevent some sort of devastating conflict, hopefully by trying, futile as it may be, to convince some Americans that, contrary to what they're taught, they are not better than anyone else.

I acccept and understand that the USA has and will continue to make mistakes. No doubt about it. And the USA is far from perfect.

However, someone has to be the best and the USA certainly is that. That being my opinion, I don't discount the worth of people in other countries that demonstrate their worth. I simply maintain we are indeed the greatest country on the planet.

And there are always degrees of greater and lesser, especially when the lesser nations in question happen to be socialist. You mentioned socialism first, sorry.

I apologise if I got carried away or overly aggressive, or if I exaggerated your views. I can get on my high horse over this sort of thing (which I don't apologise for, because my personal ethics insist upon it, but I do acknowledge).

Okay, you think the USA is best. Well, okay. But if you want it to stay "the best", it's probably not a good idea to promote some of the things you've been promoting. Calling for nuclear strikes against other nations and showing casual disregard for these cultures and communities will dent that greatness, surely, even if you feel up until now it hasn't been?

Fair enough. I do understand and agree with your basic viewpoint that the USA has not been an international angel. I do think however that we do much more good than harm. And I honestly believe we are a more secure country when we are feared by terrorists than when we try and befriend them.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

You wanted a President with an itchy finger. Go on. Man up and move to Iran.

Keep trying.

What, you're backpedaling now?

I'll be in TOS forum soon. Let's see if you follow me there too!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I do think however that we do much more good than harm.

The USA has indeed done a lot of good. And a lot of bad, too. Which makes it just like a lot of other countries, really.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Keep trying.

What, you're backpedaling now?

I'll be in TOS forum soon. Let's see if you follow me there too!

I post in several Misc threads. Yours is nothing special.

Are you going to move to Iran or not?

 

[scotpens]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other political terrorists should be tried by military tribunals. By their aims and their own statements, they are de facto engaged in war against the United States, not simply commiting violence against indvidual citizens. From British spies during the War of Independence to Nazi saboteurs caught on U.S. soil during World War II, we have tried those who make war against America in military, not civilian, courts.

Compulsory conscription for all your sons. Death penalty. Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory in many areas. Calls to bomb other countries with nukes. Oh yes, beacon of civilization you Americans are.

“Compulsory conscription”? I'm afraid you're a bit behind the times. Although males are still required to register for selective service upon turning 18, the U.S. has had an all-volunteer military since 1973. And, despite the rantings of conspiracy theorists, the draft isn't ever coming back -- because NOBODY wants it back.

“Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory”? Sure, we have our share of Biblical literalist nutjobs. But, in spite of occasional efforts by religious groups to get “intelligent design” inserted into public-school curricula, our schools still teach science, not superstition.

As for the death penalty, there's no point in belaboring the issue. Those in favor will never convince those opposed, and vice versa. My own view is that people who commit certain heinous and savage acts have, by their deeds, placed themselves beyond the pale of humanity, and therefore forfeit their right to exist. Or, in simpler terms, some people -- the Timothy McVeighs, the Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers -- are just evil motherf***ers who don't deserve to live.

And your self-flagellation for Britain's colonial past is misplaced and misguided. Britain gave its colonies parliamentary government, civil service and courts of justice. India is a thriving democracy and an economic giant today thanks largely to the British Raj. And what about conditions in Zimbabwe today compared to when it was called Rhodesia?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

What, you're backpedaling now?

I'll be in TOS forum soon. Let's see if you follow me there too!

I post in several Misc threads. Yours is nothing special.

Are you going to move to Iran or not?

After we establish the first White Castle.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I'll be in TOS forum soon. Let's see if you follow me there too!

I post in several Misc threads. Yours is nothing special.

Are you going to move to Iran or not?

After we establish the first White Castle.

So you weren't serious about what you posted? Just stirring things up?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other political terrorists should be tried by military tribunals. By their aims and their own statements, they are de facto engaged in war against the United States, not simply commiting violence against indvidual citizens. From British spies during the War of Independence to Nazi saboteurs caught on U.S. soil during World War II, we have tried those who make war against America in military, not civilian, courts.

Compulsory conscription for all your sons. Death penalty. Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory in many areas. Calls to bomb other countries with nukes. Oh yes, beacon of civilization you Americans are.

“Compulsory conscription”? I'm afraid you're a bit behind the times. Although males are still required to register for selective service upon turning 18, the U.S. has had an all-volunteer military since 1973. And, despite the rantings of conspiracy theorists, the draft isn't ever coming back -- because NOBODY wants it back.

“Creationism considered equal to evolutionary theory”? Sure, we have our share of Biblical literalist nutjobs. But, in spite of occasional efforts by religious groups to get "intelligent design" inserted into public-school curricula, our schools still teach science, not superstition.

As for the death penalty, there's no point in belaboring the issue. Those in favor will never convince those opposed, and vice versa. My own view is that people who commit certain heinous and savage acts have, by their deeds, placed themselves beyond the pale of humanity, and therefore forfeit their right to exist. Or, in simpler terms, some people -- the Timothy McVeighs, the Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers -- are just evil motherf***ers who don't deserve to live.

And your self-loathing for Britain's colonial past is misplaced and misguided. Britain gave its colonies parliamentary government, civil service and courts of justice. India is a thriving democracy and an economic giant today thanks largely to the British Raj. And what about conditions in Zimbabwe today compared to when it was called Rhodesia?

I have no self-loathing, I can assure you. In fact, I am annoyed by those who spit upon their ancestors, as I've mentioned before. My opposition to British imperialism has nothing to do with loathing or hatred. I'm aware of the "good" side of British history as well as the "bad". I'm not one of those "atoners" you're probably thinking of. I have no particular anti-British bias, I can assure you. What I oppose is imperialism, conquest, arrogant attitudes of "my big strong nation can occupy and reconfigure your nation as it wants". Britain bad? No. British imperialism bad? Yes.

Oh, and I believe India was the richest country in the world, until Britain conquered it. Which is why we conquered it. Lots of booty.

As for my list of "bad Americans", I hope it's clear I was trying to hammer home a point unsubtly. I'm aware we could debate these and the good-bad points for days, but I didn't want to, I wanted to point out that the "USA is best" attitude is not shared by many.

However, somewhat hypocritically now, I can't help myself: If everyone opposes conscription, why force your sons to register at all, on pain of punishment? It's nothing but a means of subtly telling them "you're tools and pawns of the government. Your body is ours. Your freedom is on loan; underneath it's all a lie. In essence, we own you. Don't forget it".

This is my point: "freedom" is something Americans trumpet they have, whether they have it or not. And every nation has its problems and its troubling aspects. But when a nation indoctrinates its citizens into insisting "we're great", I worry.

The USA, the UK, wherever...none are particularly great, nor particularly bad. They get along, they are fairly nice places to live, and we debate over trying to make them better. But the attitude I feel I must fight wherever I see it crop up is "we're perfect", because that's dangerous, both for that person's nation and any others.


To clarify once and for all: I'm not anti-British. Or anti-American. Or anti-any nation. But some of these nation's attitudes, policies, actions, I'm very against. That goes for most countries.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I post in several Misc threads. Yours is nothing special.

Are you going to move to Iran or not?

After we establish the first White Castle.

So you weren't serious about what you posted? Just stirring things up?

If you had actually ever been to a White Castle you'd know I am serious. Less serious than you attempt to stir me up though.

 

[Misfit Toy]

After we establish the first White Castle.

So you weren't serious about what you posted? Just stirring things up?

If you had actually ever been to a White Castle you'd know I am serious. Less serious than you attempt to stir me up though.

No - I knew that you were just playing in here. I didn't really think that your convictions were strong enough to back up your statements with any kind of action. The internet is wonderful for making "strong" comments that are actually meaningless, isn't it?

Perhaps you'll keep that in mind the next time you suggest murdering thousands.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

So you weren't serious about what you posted? Just stirring things up?

If you had actually ever been to a White Castle you'd know I am serious. Less serious than you attempt to stir me up though.

No - I knew that you were just playing in here. I didn't really think that your convictions were strong enough to back up your statements with any kind of action. The internet is wonderful for making "strong" comments that are actually meaningless, isn't it?

Perhaps you'll keep that in mind the next time you suggest murdering thousands.

If I suggested murdering thousands I'd be sympathetic to radical-islam. I'm not. I support eradicating it. Do you?

 

[ThankQ]

If you had actually ever been to a White Castle you'd know I am serious. Less serious than you attempt to stir me up though.

No - I knew that you were just playing in here. I didn't really think that your convictions were strong enough to back up your statements with any kind of action. The internet is wonderful for making "strong" comments that are actually meaningless, isn't it?

Perhaps you'll keep that in mind the next time you suggest murdering thousands.

If I suggested murdering thousands I'd be sympathetic to radical-islam. I'm not. I support eradicating it. Do you?

I support eliminating radical-islam to the exact same degree I support eliminating radical-christian.