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Someone Might Be back. Again. (Possible Spoiler)

DW got a lot less interesting after Billy Piper left it.

I thought the opposite. It got a lot more interesting after Rose left because the Doctor had to deal with his feelings in the wake of her absence.

But, then again, Rose isn't my favorite companion. Donna Noble is my favorite for the RTD run; her story broke my heart. Martha, a close second.

In the whole of DW history, Sarah Jane will always be number one because she was my first companion.
 
Season 3 would've been stronger if the rebound companion had been more interesting (or played by a better actress). I think it's pretty telling that they hired someone like Catherine Tate (who probably didn't come cheap) for season 4 and started throwing Rose Tyler's image on the screen at random intervals to keep people watching (even when it was inappropriate and distracting, like "Midnight").

It seems a bit strange that so little footage has been released of the season 5 companion. Did she even speak in the trailer?
 
I think it would have made more sense to flip-flop Martha and Donna. The Doctor needed Donna to help him get over Rose, but that season in between with Martha was just so awkward because Rose was still obviously at the forefront of the Doctor's mind.
 
Only if they come up with a Cybermen costume that doesn't look like a 12-year-old's Halloween costume.
Ever heard of "don't judge a book by its cover?"
A meaningless comparison, as the point of "Don't judge a book by its cover" is that prose is not a visual medium and it is therefore inappropriate to judge its quality by the visual quality of the exterior binding.

Television, on the other hand, is a visual medium, and Doctor Who is one that in particular follows a Realism/Naturalism production conceit. As such, it is incumbent upon the production team to at least attempt to make the aliens look plausibly Naturalistic and not as though they picked the costume up in the kid's section of the local Wal-Mart.
But my point is that an episode shouldn't be just judged by the visual elements, otherwise Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich would be the greatest directors ever. Instead, the visual elements are just a part of the episode. There's the actors' performance, the directing of the episode, the soundtrack, and of course the story.

Getting back to the Cybermen, the early stories that I keep reciting (The Tenth Planet, Tomb of the Cybermen, and The Invasion) may have dodgy costumes (special effects and sets) but the stories, music, acting, and directing more than make up for it. One of the things I get the most out of classic Doctor Who is the wonderful stories, stories which I can still enjoy with a bit of imagination to look past the sets, costumes, and special effects when they don't work.

I know you're into theater, so I have to ask: How is that kind of train thought any different from viewing a play? Not all plays have great costumes or sets, but they still can be great performances nonetheless (and I've seen that many times in my own experience at high school and college).
 
What I wonder is, will the Doc ever plan an escape for River from the Library mainframe? If so, we get to see Doctor Moon again. I mean, she's still in there, and the Doctor doesn't give up easily.

See, this is something that's bugged me ever since I saw that two parter.

River Song is DEAD. She's DEAD. She's GONE. The person that was River Song is forever gone, dead, and irretrievably lost. Same with everyone else that died in that episode and was "brought back". The only thing that exists now is a "psychic impression". A mental imposter. A mere image of the original.

That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.
 
Ever heard of "don't judge a book by its cover?"

A meaningless comparison, as the point of "Don't judge a book by its cover" is that prose is not a visual medium and it is therefore inappropriate to judge its quality by the visual quality of the exterior binding.

Television, on the other hand, is a visual medium, and Doctor Who is one that in particular follows a Realism/Naturalism production conceit. As such, it is incumbent upon the production team to at least attempt to make the aliens look plausibly Naturalistic and not as though they picked the costume up in the kid's section of the local Wal-Mart.

But my point is that an episode shouldn't be just judged by the visual elements,

Of course it shouldn't. No one is arguing that quality scenic or prop designs are sufficient conditions for a quality program. But they are necessary conditions for a quality program.

Certainly having realistic-looking Cybermen isn't sufficient for the program to be good. (If that were the case, all those Borg episodes on VOY wouldn't have sucked.) But it is necessary for the program to be good.

I know you're into theater, so I have to ask: How is that kind of train thought any different from viewing a play?

It's simple: Theatre encompasses many different production conceits. Everything from Realism/Naturalism to Romanticism to Melodrama to Expressionism to Absurdism to Epic Theatre to what-have-you.

The vast majority of television programs, however, adhere to one specific production conceit -- Realism/Naturalism. The modern Doctor Who is amongst those programs. When we see Rose's flat, we see a detailed set that aims to re-create what real-life apartments look like for the screen. When we see a corporate office, we see sets designed to replicate the designs of real corporate offices. When we see characters from the modern era, they are dressed to imitate the manner in which modern people dress; when we see characters from the past, they are dressed to imitate the manner in which people from that era dressed. Etc.

Doctor Who, like most television sci-fi programs, also tries to apply this principle to its fantastic elements -- it seeks to create the illusion that these fantastic elements are Realistic/Naturalistic. On numerous occasions, the program has tried to create the illusion that the TARDIS really is larger on the inside than on the out. The Judoon are designed to try to make you think that they really are aliens with physiologies similar to those of Earth rhinoceroses. When we see Adipose, the CGI characters are designed to imitate the look of actual adipose tissue.

That's why I consider it necessary for modern Who to at least attempt to create aliens and monsters that adhere to the Realism/Naturalism conceit -- because everything else does. If they try and fail occasionally (as it seems to have with the Slitheen), I can forgive that. But I can't forgive it if they intentionally create monsters that don't try to adhere to the Realism/Naturalism conceits they've set for the production. It should not look like something you can buy at a local store.
 
What I wonder is, will the Doc ever plan an escape for River from the Library mainframe? If so, we get to see Doctor Moon again. I mean, she's still in there, and the Doctor doesn't give up easily.

See, this is something that's bugged me ever since I saw that two parter.

River Song is DEAD. She's DEAD. She's GONE. The person that was River Song is forever gone, dead, and irretrievably lost. Same with everyone else that died in that episode and was "brought back". The only thing that exists now is a "psychic impression". A mental imposter. A mere image of the original.

That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.

She plainly stated that the Doctor and she "hadn't met yet" when she encountered him in The Library. Therefore, it would only be a (possible) matter of time before the audience would witness their "official" first meeting.
 
See, this is something that's bugged me ever since I saw that two parter.

River Song is DEAD. She's DEAD. She's GONE. The person that was River Song is forever gone, dead, and irretrievably lost. Same with everyone else that died in that episode and was "brought back". The only thing that exists now is a "psychic impression". A mental imposter. A mere image of the original.

That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.

She plainly stated that the Doctor and she "hadn't met yet" when she encountered him in The Library. Therefore, it would only be a (possible) matter of time before the audience would witness their "official" first meeting.
What interested me (and I might have to watch it again to be clear) was how River immediately recognized The Doctor, even though she obviously never met that particular incarnation of him.
 
See, this is something that's bugged me ever since I saw that two parter.

River Song is DEAD. She's DEAD. She's GONE. The person that was River Song is forever gone, dead, and irretrievably lost. Same with everyone else that died in that episode and was "brought back". The only thing that exists now is a "psychic impression". A mental imposter. A mere image of the original.

That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.

She plainly stated that the Doctor and she "hadn't met yet" when she encountered him in The Library. Therefore, it would only be a (possible) matter of time before the audience would witness their "official" first meeting.

Exactly and one day we might see when how the Doctor met Mel. :techman:
 
That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.

She plainly stated that the Doctor and she "hadn't met yet" when she encountered him in The Library. Therefore, it would only be a (possible) matter of time before the audience would witness their "official" first meeting.
What interested me (and I might have to watch it again to be clear) was how River immediately recognized The Doctor, even though she obviously never met that particular incarnation of him.

It's entirely possible that the Tenth Doctor encountered River again some time (relative to Ten's experience) between "Forest of the Dead" and "The End of Time," with the encounter in River's timeline falling somewhere between her first meeting with the Eleventh Doctor and her final encounter with the Tenth Doctor in "Forest."
 
What I wonder is, will the Doc ever plan an escape for River from the Library mainframe? If so, we get to see Doctor Moon again. I mean, she's still in there, and the Doctor doesn't give up easily.

See, this is something that's bugged me ever since I saw that two parter.

River Song is DEAD. She's DEAD. She's GONE. The person that was River Song is forever gone, dead, and irretrievably lost. Same with everyone else that died in that episode and was "brought back". The only thing that exists now is a "psychic impression". A mental imposter. A mere image of the original.

That doesn't mean the Doctor can't meet her in her past well before she died.

Obviously.

Not at all germane to the topic at hand, however.
 
She plainly stated that the Doctor and she "hadn't met yet" when she encountered him in The Library. Therefore, it would only be a (possible) matter of time before the audience would witness their "official" first meeting.
What interested me (and I might have to watch it again to be clear) was how River immediately recognized The Doctor, even though she obviously never met that particular incarnation of him.

It's entirely possible that the Tenth Doctor encountered River again some time (relative to Ten's experience) between "Forest of the Dead" and "The End of Time," with the encounter in River's timeline falling somewhere between her first meeting with the Eleventh Doctor and her final encounter with the Tenth Doctor in "Forest."

It's also possible that the 11th Doctor told her what he used to look like and that he met her before. We also don't know what's her book.
 
A meaningless comparison, as the point of "Don't judge a book by its cover" is that prose is not a visual medium and it is therefore inappropriate to judge its quality by the visual quality of the exterior binding.

Television, on the other hand, is a visual medium, and Doctor Who is one that in particular follows a Realism/Naturalism production conceit. As such, it is incumbent upon the production team to at least attempt to make the aliens look plausibly Naturalistic and not as though they picked the costume up in the kid's section of the local Wal-Mart.

But my point is that an episode shouldn't be just judged by the visual elements,

Of course it shouldn't. No one is arguing that quality scenic or prop designs are sufficient conditions for a quality program. But they are necessary conditions for a quality program.

Certainly having realistic-looking Cybermen isn't sufficient for the program to be good. (If that were the case, all those Borg episodes on VOY wouldn't have sucked.) But it is necessary for the program to be good.

I know you're into theater, so I have to ask: How is that kind of train thought any different from viewing a play?
It's simple: Theatre encompasses many different production conceits. Everything from Realism/Naturalism to Romanticism to Melodrama to Expressionism to Absurdism to Epic Theatre to what-have-you.

The vast majority of television programs, however, adhere to one specific production conceit -- Realism/Naturalism. The modern Doctor Who is amongst those programs. When we see Rose's flat, we see a detailed set that aims to re-create what real-life apartments look like for the screen. When we see a corporate office, we see sets designed to replicate the designs of real corporate offices. When we see characters from the modern era, they are dressed to imitate the manner in which modern people dress; when we see characters from the past, they are dressed to imitate the manner in which people from that era dressed. Etc.

Doctor Who, like most television sci-fi programs, also tries to apply this principle to its fantastic elements -- it seeks to create the illusion that these fantastic elements are Realistic/Naturalistic. On numerous occasions, the program has tried to create the illusion that the TARDIS really is larger on the inside than on the out. The Judoon are designed to try to make you think that they really are aliens with physiologies similar to those of Earth rhinoceroses. When we see Adipose, the CGI characters are designed to imitate the look of actual adipose tissue.

That's why I consider it necessary for modern Who to at least attempt to create aliens and monsters that adhere to the Realism/Naturalism conceit -- because everything else does. If they try and fail occasionally (as it seems to have with the Slitheen), I can forgive that. But I can't forgive it if they intentionally create monsters that don't try to adhere to the Realism/Naturalism conceits they've set for the production. It should not look like something you can buy at a local store.
I'll grant you all of that, but the classic series (especially during the black and white years which when the best Cybermen stories were created) was more of a theater production in TV format and not just because of low costs and such. The actual production played out similarly to theater just with a camera rolling for each scene (I don't know if it was filmed linearly or not, but you get the idea).

Lastly, I don't expect the current series to have costumes exactly like those of the 60's but an updated version in similar vein. The Pete's World Cybermen are quite different from the Mondas Cybermen other than the general outline. They're more of an outright robot with the brain slapped in instead of how the Mondas Cybermen were humanoid with spare parts constructed on them to provide the necessary funcition. I want to have that same feeling with modern day Cybermen.

That all being said, I think we've digressed a bit off topic, which is largely my fault.
 
That all being said, I think we've digressed a bit off topic, which is largely my fault.

As one of Catherine Tate's comedy characters might say...

"How very dare you!" :lol:

Chalk me up for another one of the nuCybermen suck school of thought. Well maybe not suck, but considering they were always my favourite classic monster I kinda hate the new versions (although they were ok in The Next Doctor)

The whole Delete catchphrase, the clunking metal legs dessigned to look like they're wearing pleasted trousers and with feet so cute and comfy looking if you look at them from the waist down you'd think they were Pixar characters! And that's before we even get to the brain in a robot body...

Oh yes, and they were made by Trigger FFS!
 
I actually tend to agree that the nuCybermen are not sufficiently menacing-looking considering the basic concept behind them. They're too big on the retro-futurism look.
 
^ Well, "awesome" remains to be seen, at least IMO. I just hope she doesn't overshadow what's important -- namely the Doctor and Amy.

What makes you think she's not what's important, too?

I mean, heck, for all we know, she may well end up being the Doctor's companion by series end. (In more ways than one!)

"How could I forget the only time-travelling companion I've ever had?"

"You've had lots of companions."

"The only one I've... had."

"Oh! Right."
 
Heck the only one I don't think would make a good Doctor is, oddly, Broadbent! Yes, that's right, I could have lived with Hugh Grant as the Doctor!
 
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