Laws on each planet
- Thread starter John200
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"Their," not "they're."
And in general, the Federation is built on the idea that every culture has the right to self-determination, which means that they have to respect the laws of foreign states when they're in those states' jurisdiction. Because, y'see, the Federation wants its authority over its jurisdiction respected, too. So they have this really novel idea of treating foreign states the way they want to be treated.
If by "respect" you mean "not intervene?" Yes. The present conflict between the hard-line fundamentalist government and the dissident moderates is an internal Iranian conflict, and no other country should be trying to control what kind of government Iran will create for itself. After all, we wouldn't very well like it if Iran tried to control what kind of government we could have, now would we?
We can certainly have one side we're rooting for, but we shouldn't intervene in their internal conflict.
Don't make the mistake of drawing real-world comparisons to what "Should" or ''should not" happen. The characters didn't laugh in the faces of the other characters because it wasn't written that way in the script.
No, they don't. They're in the process of developing nuclear technology; they say that they want a nuclear power plant, and the United States and NATO are worried about the possibility of that research being used to create nuclear weapons. (Having nuclear power plants does not necessarily lead to nuclear weapons, but the research for the one can certainly help the other.)
But, no, at this time, there is no evidence that Iran has nuclear weapons.
Whether or not local law should apply to foreign citizens is always a separate question. Ideally, it's the sort of thing that should be negotiated between two governments prior to one placing its citizens in the other's jurisdiction.
Seems to me that even if we accept the idea that the Federation should have the right to disregard local law to protect its citizens (a la Wesley in "Justice"), it should only extend so far as is necessary to extract that Federate from foreign territory, and there should be no (other) interference in the internal affairs of that foreign state. Captain Picard may think it's stupid for the Edo to execute someone for stepping on some plants, but he shouldn't overthrow the Edo government or start sending aide to anti-execution Edo activists; he should get Wesley out of there and nothing else.
The punishment zones in "Justice," for example (edit: as Sci mentions above). It's arguable whether capital punishment meted out arbitrarily really would deter crime. But I'm pretty positive that if it would work, it would work before you had to make accidentally falling through a greenhouse a death-penalty offense. Indeed, what Wesley did isn't even criminal. What he did was tortious.
Maybe the Edo equate crimes with torts, but if they do, it truly is a retarded legal system.
Maybe the Edo equate crimes with torts, but if they do, it truly is a retarded legal system.
That might win the dumbest planetary legal system on Star Trek award.
Then I'm not sure what there is to "respect" that's going on in North Korea that would apply to this question of whether or not non-interference is a good idea.
Well, no. North Korea is generally believed to have primitive nuclear weapons, roughly akin to those possessed by the United States at the end of World War II, and the general fear is that they have missile systems capable of delivering those warheads to Japan and, of course, their neighbor, South Korea, the two closest allies of the United States in that region. The long-term concern is that they might eventually develop delivery systems capable of reaching Hawai'i, but that hasn't happened yet.
The Edo have the dumbest laws ever. I can't believe that law would really work. If someone really wanted to kill someone else he wouldn't care about it. That law only decreases the chance of getting punished. And what about accidents like the one Wesley did? A death penalty for breaking a greenhouse?
The Edo's laws work for them because:
1) They are taught from childhood what those laws are
2) They have practiced those same laws for generations, until it became a natural part of their psyche
3) Although rare, those executions are swiftly enforced so there is genuine respect for those laws
Today's laws (I am American, so I shall only address those) because:
1) Many are not taught from childhood what our laws are, i.e.-punishment follows wrongdoing/violation of the law
2) We are taught that for many the laws do not apply due to wealth, good lawyers, etc.
3) Justice is not swiftly enforced and therefore not universally respected, i.e.- appeals, extenuating circumstances, legal maneuvering/technicalities
What works for one society does not always work for all societies. The Edo's system works for them for the above reasons, ours does not always work for the above reasons. It is not fair to call their laws dumb because they work for them. Ours are not necessarily better just different.
1) They are taught from childhood what those laws are
2) They have practiced those same laws for generations, until it became a natural part of their psyche
3) Although rare, those executions are swiftly enforced so there is genuine respect for those laws
Today's laws (I am American, so I shall only address those) because:
1) Many are not taught from childhood what our laws are, i.e.-punishment follows wrongdoing/violation of the law
2) We are taught that for many the laws do not apply due to wealth, good lawyers, etc.
3) Justice is not swiftly enforced and therefore not universally respected, i.e.- appeals, extenuating circumstances, legal maneuvering/technicalities
What works for one society does not always work for all societies. The Edo's system works for them for the above reasons, ours does not always work for the above reasons. It is not fair to call their laws dumb because they work for them. Ours are not necessarily better just different.
The Edo system as such doesn't appear particularly stupid to me, either. What does appear retarded is the fact that Wesley Crusher didn't know about the system.
I mean, these Edo folks are clearly quite familiar with space aliens, and readily welcome those to their planet. Our heroes seem to understand this, too, as they beam down without Prime Directive worries. But if such interaction between natives and foreigners is common, how come Tasha Yar missed the most important aspect of the local law when studying it?
It does sound understandable that Yar would accept the collection of laws presented to her, since all the laws probably were fairly ordinary and made sense to a human. She said as much. And it makes some sense that the Edo would present their collection of laws without the all-important appendix about the nature of punishment - the Edo might not realize that space aliens treated law differently, and had a complex system of graduated sanctions rather than this clear-cut "you just plain don't do wrong or you're history". But if the Edo are familiar with space aliens in general, this exact matter should have arisen several times in the past already...
And neither Iran or North Korea have nukes capable of reaching Europe. The United States has. (They, and Russia. Which put together explains a lot.)
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, these Edo folks are clearly quite familiar with space aliens, and readily welcome those to their planet. Our heroes seem to understand this, too, as they beam down without Prime Directive worries. But if such interaction between natives and foreigners is common, how come Tasha Yar missed the most important aspect of the local law when studying it?
It does sound understandable that Yar would accept the collection of laws presented to her, since all the laws probably were fairly ordinary and made sense to a human. She said as much. And it makes some sense that the Edo would present their collection of laws without the all-important appendix about the nature of punishment - the Edo might not realize that space aliens treated law differently, and had a complex system of graduated sanctions rather than this clear-cut "you just plain don't do wrong or you're history". But if the Edo are familiar with space aliens in general, this exact matter should have arisen several times in the past already...
And neither Iran or North Korea have nukes capable of reaching Europe. The United States has. (They, and Russia. Which put together explains a lot.)
Timo Saloniemi
1)The core criminal law is. At least, I knew long before I ever went to law school that it was illegal to murder, attack without provocation, steal without necessity, and so forth. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who wasn't taught not to kill or thieve when a child. Even if it wasn't by their parents, you'd learn that from freakin' Batman.
This segues nicely into what else is kind of dumb about the Edo law. A sophisticated society will likely have sophisticated laws. The criminal law includes prohibitions on actions that don't necessarily follow from basic moral principles. The illegality of exceeding a posted speed limit, of failing to keep accounting records, or burying toxic waste without a permit are all actions which are not wrong in the same obvious way that murder is. I don't think anyone would argue that breaking a speed law is per se evil.
The idea that the Edo would kill for these violations of socially expedient laws like speeding or, worse, the tort of negligence, is tyrannical and monstrous.
I want to be clear on this: Wesley did not commit a crime, in our sense of the word. He committed a tort. He negligently destroyed a greenhouse. He didn't even trespass, because trespass, in both its criminal and tortious varieties, requires intent. It was simply negligence, and petty negligence at that. Indeed, in our society, this sort of nonsense would probably never go to court, because the greenhouse looked like it was worth about fifty dollars.
Just because a law works in the narrow sense that it deters most unlawful action, doesn't mean a law is moral or not stupid. I'm actually pretty dubious that the death penalty for petty negligence would work. Can you imagine living in a world where you're terrified for your life all the time because you might fall in the wrong place, or get into a fender-bender? Hell, what happens if you make a product that's defective? Can you imagine the arresting effect it would have on innovation? The product liability law as it stands is bad enough for that already. What about corporations liable for negligence? Who dies then? The employees at the scene? The officers? The board of directors? Every last damned shareholder?
Maybe they have a version of our loss-spreading function, but instead of taking the corporate entity's pooled money, every shareholder gets punched in the face according to his or her ownership status, until said beatings add up to one fatal beating. If you own 200 shares of Liablecorp, you only get a thump on the nose. If you own 200,000 shares, you get a crowbar to the gut!
But what if 2000 people are affected? Do you do enough violence to equal 2000 deaths?
This is why the tort and criminal laws are not the same. They have wholly different functions, and a rational society realizes that not all unlawful acts should be punished with the sanctions we reserve for criminality--imprisonment and death.
"Alien" and "idiotic" are not interchangeable. See, if Wes had, say, banged one of the Edo chicks, and it turned out it was some kind of crazy statutory rape I can see him getting killed for that. It's still barbaric, but it makes some sense, because it's something that does require an intentional act, even if it doesn't require specific intent to commit a crime. The "greenhouse edict" is not only barbaric, but it's laughably simplistic, and bone-shakingly stupid.
2)The law and more importantly the protections of the law apply to everyone. The Edo have decided to do away with pretty much every protection we have in favor of a fascist state. If not stupid, it's horrible. The Edo government has been given unchecked power, and experience suggests that government will abuse that power.
What do you have against checks on arbitrary government power?
3)Convictions rates are somewhere along the lines of 90%. Criminal appeals are usually preempted with the the plea bargain process--and at any rate don't ordinarily occur with the appellee out on bond.
If there is any problem with enforcement, I suppose the limited resources of society are to blame, since they force the necessity of plea bargaining on the government.Like I said, working is not the sole criterion of a law's efficacy. Fairness and economy are other criteria. Killing someone for a negligent tort is obviously unfair. Killing a productive member of society for a moment of negligence is uneconomic. I'll point out that a dead person is not very good at paying a judgment.
I'll grant that the Edo's justice system--which combines the functions of jury, judge, and executioner in the personalities who would be drawn to the job of mediator--would be cheaper than ours.
No, ours are better, because they are not tyrannical. The death penalty for negligence is tyrannical. There is no other way to see it, and there is no way a society could function at a post-industrial revolution level with that kind of legal system.
Also, the Edo aren't automatically peaceful, either. It's said in the episode that their draconian code is what keeps them in line. If that's true, then the Edo still have the instincts of self-preservation and, very likely, the preservation of family members. How does Edo society prevent those accused and judged by the mediators from fighting back--particularly taking and killing hostages? There is no incentive to surrender to the mediators, because you're not going to get fined for going 56 in a 55, you're going to die.
How do they deal with disaffected family, who would have motive to destroy the system--democratically or with violence--which destroyed their loved ones?
Indeed, since the punishment zones are random, isn't that a rather bad deterrent for terrorists who are disaffected with the system? "Well, sure, I masterminded the mediator headquarters bombing that claimed three hundred lives, but you know, by law you can't touch me, because it wasn't in a punishment zone."
You spoke earlier of equal effect of law--the effect of the Edo law is unequal by design! It depends on a lottery!Oh, and here's another huge problem with the death penalty on Edo--Wesley's a fucking minor! They kill children on Edo for innocent mistakes? But that's okay? Seriously?
Edit: you know, I mentioned statutory rape above. I wonder what the Ocampa or Talaxian law has to say about that.
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