I finished Season One...does it get any better?
- Thread starter seigezunt
- Start date
If you're comparing it to DS9, then no, it doesn't get much better.
To watch Voyager and enjoy it, you have to take it for what it is - an show with an interesting premise, that didn't quite live up to it. IMO it should have followed DS9's format, but instead the Producers tried to make another TNG.
If you want some lighthearted fun, and a couple of interesting characters (The Doctor and Seven), and can look past its flaws - i.e. Janeway's fluctuations and obsession with getting home, the fact that Chakotay and Harry Kim had less change and growth than Morn, the complete lack of continuity (they're still shiny and clean, with an infinite supply of shuttles and torpedoes, when they arrive home) - then you CAN enjoy Voyager.
I'll have to disagree with someone's comment earlier, that it gets better in re-runs. My family and I have seen every series of Trek, and have a habit of rewatching them, we're seen TNG and DS9 twice already, but we tried watching Voyager a second time, got to about Season 5, and just stopped watching...
I think this comment sums its up -
For the record, my order for Trek, from best to worst is:
DS9 > TNG > VOY + ENT (Season 4) > TOS > ENT (the rest of it)
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I just wanted to add...
I totally agree!
I think the thing is though (at least in my case), after seeing all 700+ episodes multiple times, you start to notice flaws you didn't the first time through. You start liking certain series/characters better than others, based on personal preference.
So while I truly love ALL of Star Trek, and can appreciate all the shows for what they are, I still have favourites, and reasons to... not like some aspects of some shows, compared to others.
I totally agree!
I think the thing is though (at least in my case), after seeing all 700+ episodes multiple times, you start to notice flaws you didn't the first time through. You start liking certain series/characters better than others, based on personal preference.
So while I truly love ALL of Star Trek, and can appreciate all the shows for what they are, I still have favourites, and reasons to... not like some aspects of some shows, compared to others.
I think watching something, then saying you hate it, AFTER you have an informed opinion about it, is much better than simply giving up.
Then again, it is a form of entertainment, and if you're not being entertained then what's the point?
I just... find it annoying, when I talk to a person who claims they hate something, without actually watching enough of it to truly be able to judge it! (Not that I'm suggesting you're doing that!)
Thats why I don't mind saying that, IMO, Voyager wasn't that great - I certainly don't understand how people can say its their favourite Star Trek series! But thats because I personally like DS9 a lot better, and I can accept that everyone has different taste!
I also don't mind saying that Enterprise is the weakest Trek series, and when people say that IT'S their favourite, I'm truly appaulled!
My point is, having seen it all, I feel entitled to share my opinion of it - otherwise people can use the 'but you didn't watch it all, so clearly you missed the good episodes' argument.
If, like me, you hate it when people can use that argument on you, then I suggest finishing Voyager :P
If not - then DS9 is always there, ready to be watched again!
You_Guyz
Commander
To be fair, The 37s did suck major ass.
But you do have these episodes to look forward to:
Projections
Persistence of Vision
Cold Fire
Resistance
Meld
Dreadnought
Lifesigns
Deadlock (one of the best all time Star Trek episodes)
The Thaw (one of the episodes of the season fa sho')
Tuvix
Resolutions
But you do have these episodes to look forward to:
Projections
Persistence of Vision
Cold Fire
Resistance
Meld
Dreadnought
Lifesigns
Deadlock (one of the best all time Star Trek episodes)
The Thaw (one of the episodes of the season fa sho')
Tuvix
Resolutions
I would put ENT season 3 in the 'good' camp, rather than lump it with "the rest of it".
Agreed, though the third and fourth seasons are superior to any one season of Voyager
Well, I wouldn't put VOY ahead of good ENT and certainly not in front of TOS...
My ranking would be more along the lines of
DS9 > TOS/TNG season 3 and later/ENT seasons 3/4 (order to be decided later) > VOY > ENT season 1/2 > TNG seasons 1/2
I disagree, I think Voy's s4&5 trumps anything ENT. has.
ENT. s3 is such an obvious ploy to get back DS9 viewers it wasn't even covert about it. No Voyager ep. IMO is as bad as that botched "Alien Nazi's come to Harlem" cross time caper crap. Only thing missing was Red Foxx and Della Resse.
To be fair, I should move TNG seasons 1/2, though even they had a couple of gems (Measure of a Man, at the very least).
But IMO (which obviously differs from yours) ENT season 3 was awful, they tried to make it like DS9, but did not succeed. Archer became like Janeway - obsessed. And the whole idea of the Xindi was stupid - who were these guys and why had we never seen them before? The only part that was cool was the various types (Arboreal, Aquatic, etc). Not to mention the only episode I even remember from Season 3 was ... North Star? The one where they dress up as cowboys. The rest was all 'RAR, let's hunt down the Xindi!' - but thats just my opinion.
As for TOS... I used to rate it as my least favourite. When I was first watching through the various series, I'd only grudgingly watch it - I'd much rather be watching TNG, DS9 or VOY (which we watched pretty much all at the same time). I was young, it was hokey and so slow moving. I've only come to appreciate it as I've gotten older!
And Voyager was my first series (that I remember at least, my Mum remembers watching TNG when she was pregnant with me) - so I have a certain fondness for it. 7 seasons of mediocrity (with some stand-outs) beats 3 seasons of crap, and 1 season of greatness. But again, this is all just my opinion - if there's one thing I've learned from visiting Trek forums, is thats everyone ranks all the series differently, for different reasons.
I think that ENT S3 was far more obviously going after the 24 audience than the DS9 audience. A season long arc (which was, coincidentally, a 24 episode season) about a mission to save Earth which causes Archer and co to go all badass and torture aliens for information, and the stakes got bigger as the season reached its climax. This is at its most obvious in the episode where Archer and T'Pol travel back to 2004 to stop the Reptilians creating a bio-weapon, the shaky-cam and fast-zoom were clearly an attempt to copy 24's aesthetic, were the plot not an obvious enough rip-off. In fact, I feel that season 3 had very little in common with DS9 beyond the fact that there was a continuing story arc. The Dominion War was a full on war whereas the Xindi arc was a lone ship fighting against the clock.
And to back up my claim I'll point out that Braga and Manny Coto (the head writers of the Xindi arc) both ended up on the 24 writing staff after Enterprise was mothballed.
Besides, the Xindi arc's genesis was in Voyager, not DS9, because it is based off of Braga's idea for a season-long Year of Hell arc in VOY season 4 which was shot down. Six years later Enterprise was in trouble and B&B knew they had to do something to dig themselves out of the ratings hole, so they took Braga's idea and added in a few elements from 24. Not the most original idea and clearly the wrong direction for a prequel show, but for the most part it worked.
Yes, thank god Voyager didn't have any alien Nazi crap in its 4th or 5th season.No Voyager ep. IMO is as bad as that botched "Alien Nazi's come to Harlem" cross time caper crap. Only thing missing was Red Foxx and Della Resse.
You_Guyz
Commander
I really don't see how season 3 just because it was an arc and had 24 episodes was an attempt at attracting the audience of a completely different genre of show, that is a ludicrous assumption in my opinion.
They weren't trying to capture the audience of any other show, they simply looked at all the other shows around them at the time and realised story arcs were in and episodic stories were out. Therefore they made a story arc for season 3 as was in fashion. Its as simple as that/
They weren't trying to capture the audience of any other show, they simply looked at all the other shows around them at the time and realised story arcs were in and episodic stories were out. Therefore they made a story arc for season 3 as was in fashion. Its as simple as that/
My take on the situation is that ENT's third season is what most of VOY's seasons should have been like. Arc based stories about crossing a region of space. Even the 2-3 episode mini-arcs of ENT's fourth season would have been a good format for VOY.
I don't think it's a question of what type of show is popular at the moment. If a series lends itself to arc-based storylines, then it should do it. VOY needed to have much more episode-to-episode continuity, like DS9. TOS and TNG not so much because it wasn't a neccessity.
I don't think it's a question of what type of show is popular at the moment. If a series lends itself to arc-based storylines, then it should do it. VOY needed to have much more episode-to-episode continuity, like DS9. TOS and TNG not so much because it wasn't a neccessity.
Like I said, it wasn't a complete rip-off, they just borrowed some of the elements of 24 such as a ticking-time-bomb driving the season and turning Archer into a badass who tortured and beat people in order to get the information he needed. At that time 24 was just finishing off its second season and was proving itself to be a popular and successful TV show, for B&B to go after that audience would have been the obvious choice, especially with the noose of cancellation around their necks. Braga and Coto both ended up writing for 24 so they were probably fans of the show, and when you're a fan of something it is not uncommon for parts of it to make its way into your own works.
As for ENT S3 only having 24 episodes, that was purely a coincidence, it was meant to be a "normal" 26 episode season but UPN cut the order because the ratings were still in the dumps.
funny how this is becoming a discussion of ENT.
I'm currently watching VOY and ENT at the same time. I'm loving ENT, and my current pattern is to watch 2-3 episodes of ENT, and follow with one ep of VOY. Otherwise, I might just keep watching ENT all night. After an ep or two of VOY, I'm ready to shut the TV off.
Though, it's getting a little better, if I watch with a sense of humor. I enjoyed the one where Kes starts eating bugs and going through puberty, and aliens try getting it on with the Voyager. Great teaser, where she leans into the camera and chomps on the cockroaches!
Oh, and Projections was pretty good, but I'm getting pretty sick of holodeck stories (not a complaint of Voyager, but of Trek in general).
I'm currently watching VOY and ENT at the same time. I'm loving ENT, and my current pattern is to watch 2-3 episodes of ENT, and follow with one ep of VOY. Otherwise, I might just keep watching ENT all night. After an ep or two of VOY, I'm ready to shut the TV off.
Though, it's getting a little better, if I watch with a sense of humor. I enjoyed the one where Kes starts eating bugs and going through puberty, and aliens try getting it on with the Voyager. Great teaser, where she leans into the camera and chomps on the cockroaches!
Oh, and Projections was pretty good, but I'm getting pretty sick of holodeck stories (not a complaint of Voyager, but of Trek in general).
Yes, thank god Voyager didn't have any alien Nazi crap in its 4th or 5th season.No Voyager ep. IMO is as bad as that botched "Alien Nazi's come to Harlem" cross time caper crap. Only thing missing was Red Foxx and Della Resse.
Space Nazis are an incredibly silly concept, but The Killing Game combined it with another concept I am really sick of: the holodeck. Ugh.
Voyager had worse episodes. *ahem* Threshold? OK, so TNG and ENT also both had shitty episodes with the silly premise of the crew 'devolving' (Genesis and Extinction). But at least Archer and Hoshi didn't mate and have lizard babies, leave them on the planet and laugh about it afterwards on the ship.
Both series had crappy episodes (I'd name Precious Cargo and Marauders are the worst of ENT), but to did TOS, TNG and DS9, so I'm not sure that comparing the worst episodes will get us anywhere...
North Star is the only one you remember?! OMG.But IMO (which obviously differs from yours) ENT season 3 was awful, they tried to make it like DS9, but did not succeed. Archer became like Janeway - obsessed. And the whole idea of the Xindi was stupid - who were these guys and why had we never seen them before? The only part that was cool was the various types (Arboreal, Aquatic, etc). Not to mention the only episode I even remember from Season 3 was ... North Star? The one where they dress up as cowboys. The rest was all 'RAR, let's hunt down the Xindi!' - but thats just my opinion.
It was one of the few lame episodes (Extinction, Exile) that had little or nothing to do with the big storyarc and halted the momentum of the season.I don't see a problem with not having seen the Xindi before - it's a big galaxy. Just the Federation has 150 worlds, and how many did we ever see or have mentioned?
The only thing that really bothered me in the Xindi arc was that they distinguished only the Xindi species, but didn't show different individuals within the Insectoid, Aquatic, and most importantly, Reptilian species - so we ended up basically having the Reptilian Xindi as stupid ugly evil lizard men
and the fact that they made the human-looking Xindi (Primates) the most sympathetic, while the bad guys were the least human/ugliest (by human standards). It would have been more interesting if Degra was a lizard man and hell-bent-on-destruction fanatic villain Dolim had looked like a human.But overall, I thought the Xindi arc was very good and exactly what the show needed. Season 3 had the most amazing visuals I've ever seen in Trek series (we actually got to see all those strange anomalies and their effects on the ship - unlike in VOY, where encountering an anomaly usually meant a lot of technobabble followed by some sort of time warp or whatever); great space action scenes - including the "Azati Prime/Damage" attack that left ENT a wreck; getting to know the Xindi, with sympathetic and developed Xindi characters, including Degra who became practically one of the leads of the season; some conflict within the crew of Enterprise (Reed and Hayes); strong character development for the main characters, over the entire season: Archer forced to do immoral things and become what he despised, and despising himself for it; Trip having to deal with his pain and anger over the death of his sister; T'Pol giving in to her desire to experiment with emotions and getting addicted to Trelium-D (was there another instance of a main character in Trek developing a drug addiction? And most amazingly, it wasn't treated in a judgmental way). One thing that ENT always did better than other Trek shows was treat redshirt deaths with importance and respect - TOS killed off redshirts far too often to the extent that it became a joke, and in VOY you rarely heard about any (except in Latent Image), it was always the main characters that were put in danger. In ENT, even if we didn't know the redshirts who died or hadn't even seen them, it was always shown that the Enterprise crew very affected by the deaths. I was particularly impressed by the way they really WRECKED the ship in Azati Prime/Damage - we've seen Enterprise ships destroyed before, but we've never seen it looking like a wreck with more holes in it than Swiss cheese... not to mention the shocking scenes of people being sucked into space. And the damage STUCK in the next episode and was dealt with - as did the damage to the soul of the main characters. Damage is my favorite S3 episode for the way it showed the ship and the show's leads - Archer and T'Pol - at their low point. Archer's decision to rob the ship of the explorers in Damage recalled Anomaly from the beginning of the season and the speech the alien pirate gave Archer - he became just like the pirates Enterprise had encountered early on in the Expanse, robbing the same kind of people, peaceful explorers, that he used to be. That's good planning for an arc - maybe VOY would have had something like that if Year of Hell was a season-long arc. But instead, on VOY, we would get such episodes where Janeway was forced to make tough decisions or where she crossed the line, but the consequences were never or almost never carried to another episode, just like any damage to the ship was reset by the next episode. In Night, we learn that Janeway felt guilty for stranding her crew in the Delta Quadrant... but it had never been mentioned or hinted before and was never mentioned since!
Yes, thank god Voyager didn't have any alien Nazi crap in its 4th or 5th season.
Oh, God. Timo told me to watch "The Killing Game" because I was simply befuddled that it could have the plot point that he had mentioned. So I did. The Finn cared not for my suffering.
I swear that the episodes were made solely because someone had a stroke or other sort of brain-affecting condition and vomited out, at the terminator between consciousness and incoherence, "Klingons fighting Nazis!", which someone then developed a story around, deciding to rip off the ending of Blazing Saddles while neglecting to include any of the fun.
Not that the Hirogen were complete wastes. Tsunkatse was actually pretty good (and guest starred Hertzler and Combs--er, and the Rock--coincidence?).
But The Killing Game sucked so badly. So badly. It's not just dumb, it's also boring.
The only good moment in it is the nonsensical, bizarre image of Neelix riding a bike like a girl in the middle of St. Lo or wherever it was. I have no idea why, but that was just hilarious to me.
Indeed, Voyager is fun to watch sometimes--especially with friends--because it is so readily riffable. So if you enjoy laughing at badness, Voyager offers some great material. What other reason would there be to watch something like False Profits than to make fun of it? Hell, that's the worst episode of Trek I've ever seen. Even worse than Threshold. There are only six things right about it, and everything else is wrong.
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Voyager's all hit and miss. I found myself loving one episode, hating the next. It often depends on who the story is following. There are a lot of Harry Kim, Neelix and Chakotay stinkers... balanced out with awesome Doctor and Seven of Nine stories (IMHO).
Dude, if you can't wait, just skip ahead to season 4. It's a lot more digestable/cohesive by then.
Dude, if you can't wait, just skip ahead to season 4. It's a lot more digestable/cohesive by then.
