Stigma - Loved It!

[JiNX-01]

I like you, too. I just think T'Pol should have been more forthcoming about the circumstances of the meld. In fact, I think it would have been even more principled than her refusal to denounce melders.

How so? T'Pol saw the council as trying to advance an appalling agenda and decided that she was not going to help them further that agenda by naming names or volunteering testimony.

I think the AIDS allegory is a little overstated with regards to this episode. I think McCarthyism is a little more appropriate..perhaps a combination of both.

I agree that McCarthyism is a better analogy for "Stigma." And in light of that, seeing T'Pol take ownership of her initial choice to experiment with melding would be more courageous than simply refusing to name the one and only Vulcan she knows for a fact engages in mind melds.

 

[DevilEyes]

The drugs analogy is a lot more appropriate for what is the issue here: we're not discussing Tolaris' guilt, which I think everyone agrees on in the first place; the issue is T'Pol's responsibility according to Vulcan law/customs, under the supposition that mind-melds are illegal on Vulcan - therefore the drugs analogy. It is implied in "Stigma" that T'Pol could defend herself by explaining that she was forced to mind-meld. But she did initially consent to a mind-meld (like the girl in commodore's example who initially wants to take some drugs, takes some, then decides she doesn't like it and wants to stop), so this was not exactly true. (Now, whether it should be illegal or a taboo to mind-meld, is a whole different matter; the issue is just whether "I was forced" was a justified defense and whether it was true to the facts.)

To be fair, I had no problem with T'Pol refusing to talk about what must have been a traumatic experience, I understood it, and it was Archer who kept insisting that she was forced; but the episode heavily implied that this was the honest and complete truth of the matter, to the point that you would have no idea what actually happened if you hadn't seen "Fusion".

No. I am referring to the show in general. Everytime someone starts a thread extolling the virtues of one episode or another, the thread is instantly barraged by people who think that the episode:
Sucked
Was an abomination
Assasinated the character of_______
Was poorly written
etc.
etc.

People who like the show are constantly being put into the position of defending themselves against people who can't be happy until they've persuaded everyone who will listen as to how much and to what degree the show sucked. As a fan of the show, I am sick of it.

Are you saying that nobody should be allowed to criticise any episode or plot in any way, unless they want to be labeled a hater?

For the record, I like the show, I loved Fusion and liked Stigma, but I can't pretend not to notice the poor continuity between those two episodes. Fusion made it seem that mind-melds were an obscure practice that T'Pol was not even familiar with; she was curious and choose to try it. In Stigma, suddenly it's common knowledge among Vulcans that mind-melds are not allowed, and a minority that can perform it is stigmatized for it, as well as anyone else that participates in it. Interesting story, but it doesn't really fit with what was shown in Fusion. Then we also have Archer forgetting what a mind-meld is, and the implication that T'Pol never consented to a mind-meld at all.

There's no doubt in my mind that the parallel was intended to be to a date-rape, not a drug or alcohol situation. However consensual (and perhaps enjoyable, if scary) the meld started out to be, Tolaris intruded too far and actually hurt her to the point where she passed out - not counting the lasting effects of Panar Syndrome.

It was obvious that this was the parallel they were going for, and it worked for that episode.

But I wouldn't draw any overall conclusion about mind-melds based on that. Various Trek series and films have been terribly inconsistent in the way they treated mind-melds in general and forced mind-melds in particular. It's been implied many times (including the first time a meld was mentioned, in TOS Dagger of the Mind) that a mind-meld is an incredibly intimate act. Yet in the following 80+ episodes and movies, we've seen Spock (who originally said that meld is so intimate) mind-meld with everyone and everything - people he had never seen before, Horta, whales, even computers. As for forced melds... There was an discussion a while ago on Trek Lit subforum about the Spock/Valeris meld in Undiscovered Country, and some people claimed that was analogous to rape, or at least a very serious assault (and in the movie itself, it was presented as a disturbing moment that is hurtful to Valeris and that everyone present is shocked by, and that Spock himself is not comfortable with what he did) and named "Fusion" as an example that proves that forced meld is analogous to rape. I pointed out that those rape analogies only seem to pop up when the subject/victim of a forced meld happens to be female, and these are the only times when Trek writers and directors presented those situations as similar to a sexual assault. Nobody seemed to have a problem with Tuvok aggressively continuing to mind-meld with the guy in "Random Thoughts" and attack him with violent images that he did not want. Not to mention DS9 "The Maquis", in which Sakonna, the female Vulcan Maquis member, unsuccessfully tried to force a mind-meld on Dukat during the failed interrogation scene... and nobody ever treated it as an attempted rape, Sakonna even says at one point that they (the Maquis) aren't cruel like Cardassians so they don't torture their prisoners.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Aaaaand I see we've reached Touchy Subject level.

Helpful reminder to all: This is a place for people to share and discuss their opinions, hopefully in a civil and respectful manner. This is not a place for anyone to cast aspersions on anyone else's reading comprehension, memory, arguing prowess, or love of Trek.

You have opinions. Some will agree with you, and some won't. That's the deal. Just because someone has a different viewpoint than you do, it doesn't make your viewpoint (or theirs) any less valid or valuable.

 

[Mach5]

Helpful reminder to all: This is a place for people to share and discuss their opinions...

This again? I haven't read any of the previous posts, but from this quote I conclude that it's "that" time of the month...

How about this for an opinion - "Stigma" was shit because it sucked!

Why did it suck? Because it was one of those episodes that portrayed Vulcans as primitive, bigoted assholes.

 

[bluedana]

For the record, JiNX, I do see your point, but I come to a different conclusion. Based on my interpretation of the episode (and my understanding of the points of view of the different characters, which may or may not be objectively accurate), Fusion and Stigma are not inconsistent with each other.

In all the years since this show aired, I never once thought about McCarthy-ism in Stigma. But, wow, that's a really good insight which adds an interesting layer to those scenes.

 

[Middleman]

No. I am referring to the show in general. Everytime someone starts a thread extolling the virtues of one episode or another, the thread is instantly barraged by people who think that the episode:
Sucked
Was an abomination
Assasinated the character of_______
Was poorly written
etc.
etc.

People who like the show are constantly being put into the position of defending themselves against people who can't be happy until they've persuaded everyone who will listen as to how much and to what degree the show sucked. As a fan of the show, I am sick of it.

I personally don't have a problem with people saying an episode sucked or any of the other above mentioned critiques. In fact, I use them all to describe "These are the Voyages". This is how some people communicate and as long as they aren't getting in my face about it or being confrontational about it with me, I don't have a problem with it. It's their opinion, they are entitled to it whether I like it or not. What I usually tell people who want me to justify my opinion when it comes to entertainment is: I know that I like it (dislike it) and why doesn't matter. If I have a reason, and I fell like giving it, I will. I never feel compelled to defend my opinion when it comes to entertainment. Now if they get in my face about it, then I usually tell them where to go and give them detailed directions on how to get there (depending of course on the forum I'm in). As an Enterprise fan, I understand what it's like to constantly be on the defensive. That's just my two cents.

For the record, I liked Stigma, but I do have some issues with parts of the episode, particularly T'Pol's assertion that the meld was forced. That's not exactly the literal truth. She consented to the meld initially and when she told Tolaris to stop, he didn't. Could be a writing inconsistency.

 

[Middleman]

In all the years since this show aired, I never once thought about McCarthy-ism in Stigma. But, wow, that's a really good insight which adds an interesting layer to those scenes.

Agreed, the more you think about it, the more it makes sense. Melders were something to be feared, ostracized (I'm staying out of the political aspects) and stopped. Possibly even abused to get rid of enemies.

 

[bluedana]

In all the years since this show aired, I never once thought about McCarthy-ism in Stigma. But, wow, that's a really good insight which adds an interesting layer to those scenes.

Agreed, the more you think about it, the more it makes sense. Melders were something to be feared, ostracized (I'm staying out of the political aspects) and stopped. Possibly even abused to get rid of enemies.

And the whole idea that just by answering the question, you tacitly justify the purported right to ask.

 

[T'Bonz]

This again? I haven't read any of the previous posts, but from this quote I conclude that it's "that" time of the month...

Warning for trolling. I would suggest to you and any other posters so inclined to post stuff like this that you don't in future.

Trying to intimidate a woman into shutting up or belittling her using that type of tactic ain't going to fly on this board.

Bonz, perpetually cranky, no period needed.

 

[Broccoli]

But I wouldn't draw any overall conclusion about mind-melds based on that. Various Trek series and films have been terribly inconsistent in the way they treated mind-melds in general and forced mind-melds in particular. It's been implied many times (including the first time a meld was mentioned, in TOS Dagger of the Mind) that a mind-meld is an incredibly intimate act. Yet in the following 80+ episodes and movies, we've seen Spock (who originally said that meld is so intimate) mind-meld with everyone and everything - people he had never seen before, Horta, whales, even computers. As for forced melds... There was an discussion a while ago on Trek Lit subforum about the Spock/Valeris meld in Undiscovered Country, and some people claimed that was analogous to rape, or at least a very serious assault (and in the movie itself, it was presented as a disturbing moment that is hurtful to Valeris and that everyone present is shocked by, and that Spock himself is not comfortable with what he did) and named "Fusion" as an example that proves that forced meld is analogous to rape. I pointed out that those rape analogies only seem to pop up when the subject/victim of a forced meld happens to be female, and these are the only times when Trek writers and directors presented those situations as similar to a sexual assault. Nobody seemed to have a problem with Tuvok aggressively continuing to mind-meld with the guy in "Random Thoughts" and attack him with violent images that he did not want. Not to mention DS9 "The Maquis", in which Sakonna, the female Vulcan Maquis member, unsuccessfully tried to force a mind-meld on Dukat during the failed interrogation scene... and nobody ever treated it as an attempted rape, Sakonna even says at one point that they (the Maquis) aren't cruel like Cardassians so they don't torture their prisoners.

True. Mind Melds are played differently at different times for different reasons (in a dramatic sense). In "Fusion/Stigma", they used it as a parallel to rape (in my opinion). In ST6, while I didn't see it necessarily as rape, it did play into the bad side of "forcing info out of someone". A kind of torture, I suppose. In "The Maquis", it works (or tried to) as torture as well.

Because it is a fictional practice, it can be adjusted to however the writers want to use it. I suppose the rape parallel can work when the aggressor is taking emotional/physical pleasure out of it by the sharing of emotions (any emotions), where as the torture angle can work when the aggressor is not doing it for pleasure, but rather too seek out specific information.

I don't think it is meant to be an intentional double standard. Although, that would have been an interesting episode if they ever did one like "Fusion", but with the gender roles reversed. It seems that there is a horrible incorrect belief that men can't be raped or sexually assaulted. Could be intersting to see that addressed and played out.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I just watched this last night.The bit about her consenting did ping a bit with me, her having glossed over that part. But the thing that stayed with me was how even though it was in your face moralizing I really enjoyed the episode. Fast pace, excellent Vulcans (and diverse), nice dollop of Phlox.. the preachiness was quite easy to overlook.

 

[Reanok]

I just watched this last night.The bit about her consenting did ping a bit with me, her having glossed over that part. But the thing that stayed with me was how even though it was in your face moralizing I really enjoyed the episode. Fast pace, excellent Vulcans (and diverse), nice dollop of Phlox.. the preachiness was quite easy to overlook.

I definitely agree with Teacake. I watched it again the Vulcans are definitely bigoted against the other Vulcans who knew how to do mind melds. It makes you wonder what caused the prejudice against the Vulcans who could do the melds and what happened to the Vulcans to be taught that they never had the abilities todo melds meld in the first place.What perpetuated that lie for so many centuries on Vulcan.

 

[Middleman]

It makes you wonder what caused the prejudice against the Vulcans who could do the melds and what happened to the Vulcans to be taught that they never had the abilities todo melds meld in the first place.What perpetuated that lie for so many centuries on Vulcan.

Mind melding is the truest form of sharing thoughts and emotions for Vulcans. If everyone were melding and sharing truths, then how could the Vulcan power structure, the corrupt High Command in particular, remain in power? Controlling information is power and with melding there are no secrets. If you were in power in that government, you would want melding banned too and have the practitioner's stigmatized. Just my theory.

 

[Reanok]

It makes you wonder what caused the prejudice against the Vulcans who could do the melds and what happened to the Vulcans to be taught that they never had the abilities todo melds meld in the first place.What perpetuated that lie for so many centuries on Vulcan.

Mind melding is the truest form of sharing thoughts and emotions for Vulcans. If everyone were melding and sharing truths, then how could the Vulcan power structure, the corrupt High Command in particular, remain in power? Controlling information is power and with melding there are no secrets. If you were in power in that government, you would want melding banned too and have the practitioner's stigmatized. Just my theory.

Great answer I definitely agree with this Middleman.

 

[JiNX-01]

It makes you wonder what caused the prejudice against the Vulcans who could do the melds and what happened to the Vulcans to be taught that they never had the abilities todo melds meld in the first place.What perpetuated that lie for so many centuries on Vulcan.

Mind melding is the truest form of sharing thoughts and emotions for Vulcans. If everyone were melding and sharing truths, then how could the Vulcan power structure, the corrupt High Command in particular, remain in power? Controlling information is power and with melding there are no secrets. If you were in power in that government, you would want melding banned too and have the practitioner's stigmatized. Just my theory.

Great answer I definitely agree with this Middleman.

I agree. Middleman has advanced the best explanation for this inexplicable prohibition.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Mind melding is the truest form of sharing thoughts and emotions for Vulcans. If everyone were melding and sharing truths, then how could the Vulcan power structure, the corrupt High Command in particular, remain in power? Controlling information is power and with melding there are no secrets. If you were in power in that government, you would want melding banned too and have the practitioner's stigmatized. Just my theory.

Mine too.

 

[StarshipDefiant]

True. Mind Melds are played differently at different times for different reasons (in a dramatic sense). In "Fusion/Stigma", they used it as a parallel to rape (in my opinion). In ST6, while I didn't see it necessarily as rape, it did play into the bad side of "forcing info out of someone". A kind of torture, I suppose. In "The Maquis", it works (or tried to) as torture as well.

Because it is a fictional practice, it can be adjusted to however the writers want to use it. I suppose the rape parallel can work when the aggressor is taking emotional/physical pleasure out of it by the sharing of emotions (any emotions), where as the torture angle can work when the aggressor is not doing it for pleasure, but rather too seek out specific information.

I think you just perfectly covered what the "differences" are, in Fusion/Stigma, he didn't quit when T'Pol was suddenly against it, because he was getting off on it in someway. Whilst in the STVI and DS9 examples, it wasn't done for pleasure of any sort, but to gain information the other party was actively refusing to give up. In those examples, it's analogous to using a form of tourture, waterboarding someone, hitting them, sleep depervation, etc... except that it is in a Vulcan way, forced mind meld. Whereas in ENT, the rape allegory comes from the fact the male (I forget his name) Vulcan was clearly deriving some sort of pleasure, and when T'Pol said stop, changing the situation into where one party is no longer consenting, he pressed onwards, attempting to illicit some sort of response from her, while gaining some sort of sick pleasure from it.

I actually somewhat forgot she had consented, and I think she worded it as such, having not done so, due to the environment where he approached her to do it, in her quarters where moments later he proved that yes or no, he's going to do it as he wishes it. Perhaps, knowing what it was from personal experience, T'Pol decided that she truely didn't consent, she had (absolutely) no idea what she was getting into. Now, maybe that does not really count or matter here, what matters is, she had said yes and later on, said she hadn't. Isn't it possible, considering the great shame she had to since endure, that she decided to say she never consented, to try and somewhat minimize said shame?