The ancient beliefs that helped build ancient Vulcan culture. Most likely something to do with giant pink birds.
Do Vulcans,Klingons or Romulans believe in Religion?
- Thread starter steve1961
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The ancient beliefs that helped build ancient Vulcan culture. Most likely something to do with giant pink birds.
I think it's more a combination of Surak's teachings and the fact that they're telepaths. This resulted in certain ancient religious rites being retained, at least on the books, coupled with the logic and scientific acumen to know the factual basis of those practices. They're basically a race of superintelligent, telepathic gnostics. They believe in the supernatural because they can sense it directly, i.e., they know it's there. Theirs is not exactly a faith-based system, aside from their faith in the reliability of logic.
Of course, as the Doctor once said, logic only permits one to be wrong with authority. I'm sure the captain of the Intrepid would concur, provided he hadn't already been digested.
As for the Romulans, while they'd be fools to totally write off the Vulcan's basis for their take on the ancient ways, I see them holding on to the ancient rites with no justification in science and logic; the ancient ways are what they are.
For example, the Vulcans may explain prayer, and its relative effectiveness, on how the person making the prayer is simply entering a state of mind which enables their own life force to exercise those abilities to bring about a favorable outcome, if possible, and a far more dignified method would be to simply use mediation to enter that same state.
The Romulans, on the other hand, while acknowledging the validity of the Vulcan stance, would see this approach as dull, colorless, a backhanded slap at their traditions, and boring as all hell.
So, we have the two sides, dull and lifeless logic against passion and enthusiasm. Both sides vying for dominance over Vulcan. I also suspect that the dull and boring Vulcans also made very cunning warriors, resulting in the Romulan faction ultimately choosing to leave Vulcan and set up shop somewhere very far away. And somewhere along the way, they have a war with the puny humans, who also prove to be tougher than initially thought.
Of course, as the Doctor once said, logic only permits one to be wrong with authority. I'm sure the captain of the Intrepid would concur, provided he hadn't already been digested.
As for the Romulans, while they'd be fools to totally write off the Vulcan's basis for their take on the ancient ways, I see them holding on to the ancient rites with no justification in science and logic; the ancient ways are what they are.
For example, the Vulcans may explain prayer, and its relative effectiveness, on how the person making the prayer is simply entering a state of mind which enables their own life force to exercise those abilities to bring about a favorable outcome, if possible, and a far more dignified method would be to simply use mediation to enter that same state.
The Romulans, on the other hand, while acknowledging the validity of the Vulcan stance, would see this approach as dull, colorless, a backhanded slap at their traditions, and boring as all hell.
So, we have the two sides, dull and lifeless logic against passion and enthusiasm. Both sides vying for dominance over Vulcan. I also suspect that the dull and boring Vulcans also made very cunning warriors, resulting in the Romulan faction ultimately choosing to leave Vulcan and set up shop somewhere very far away. And somewhere along the way, they have a war with the puny humans, who also prove to be tougher than initially thought.
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Why wouldn't the ancients already know the factual basis of their rituals? They have "inside info" on them, after all. "In-depth" study of telepathy through telepathy might have revealed all the pertaining facts even without the scientific method - and there's no telling that scientific method wasn't already the norm before Surak added the further aspects of applying rigorous logic to everyday dealings, practicing abstinence from the usual Vulcan passions, and perhaps going pacifist or otherwise changing one's policies and worldview.
Vulcans seemed to be starfaring a thousand years before Surak, allowing them to found the P'Jem monastery. Sounds like advanced knowledge of nature combined with traditional ritual-spiritual religion to me.
Timo Saloniemi
We're trying to cover several thousand years of Vulcan and Romulan history in a few posts.
Okay so you would rather believe in an invisible man like the Jews, Muslims, and Christians believe.
Objectively both are just as valid. And those religions were probably influenced by beliefs in the pagan religions.
Didn't Tuvok once say that he didn't believe in the katra?
Early on the Romulans had a lot of Roman Empire trappings, name of the home world, political and military ranks, so perhaps the empire is polytheistic, with four or five major religions and hundreds of minor gods. The various worlds in the empire, either colonies or conquests (the provinces), could have their own faiths as long as they also acknowledged the central religions as well.
Vulcans, with their Katras, know that something of the mortal being survives after death. That your personality (soul) continues. Located in Spock's quarters there is an object called the Fire Beast or Fire Pot Beast, a hollow bust that is lit internally, it's next to the foot of Spock's bed against the far curtain wall. In one of Diane Duane's books, she suggested this was a religious icon. Despite the Star Trek/one world mentality, the Vulcan can easily be a diverse peoples, with both ethnic/cultural religions and traditional spiritualities.
Given the Katras, there could be a form of ancester worship too.
Vulcans, with their Katras, know that something of the mortal being survives after death. That your personality (soul) continues. Located in Spock's quarters there is an object called the Fire Beast or Fire Pot Beast, a hollow bust that is lit internally, it's next to the foot of Spock's bed against the far curtain wall. In one of Diane Duane's books, she suggested this was a religious icon. Despite the Star Trek/one world mentality, the Vulcan can easily be a diverse peoples, with both ethnic/cultural religions and traditional spiritualities.
Given the Katras, there could be a form of ancester worship too.
Yeah, since they store as many katras as they can get their pointy-eared mitts on, it only follows that they can contact and draw upon those katras, even if the storage method is some monks sitting in a cave overlooking Shi'Kahr.
No need trying to interpret what Surak wrote three thousand years ago, go up into the hills and talk to Harold, he's got Surak's katra on speed dial.
No need trying to interpret what Surak wrote three thousand years ago, go up into the hills and talk to Harold, he's got Surak's katra on speed dial.
^ "Welcome to the Vulcan Hall of Ancient Thought Emergency Line. To continue this conversation in Federation Standard, please press 1. If you know the extension of the katra you are trying to reach, press 2. For Katrachnical Support, press 3..."
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
That's not true...in "Yesteryear", Spock (posing as a cousin of the family) told his father that he was journeying to a shrine "to honor our Gods". Spock kept a bust in his quarters (seen in several eps) that was of the Vulcan God of War (or Death, I can't remember which right now). This information was disclosed by DC Fontana herself.
In ST V, we learn that Vulcan's have an "Eden myth" (for want of a better term) in Sha'ka're.
Finally in TNG, we have the two-parter "Gambit", where the ancient Vulcan gods are again referenced.
Interestingly, their myth is more of the "old" variety where paradise is a specific place in the universe, one that mortals can easily visit if they travel to the right location - as opposed to the "new" idea of Eden as a spiritual plane from which we've been evicted and cannot go back to, at least not through Earthly means. That is, Vulcans think this great place is a planet at location X. And others seem to share that belief, as "Way to Eden" informs us.
There's no suggestion that the Vulcan idea of paradise would be connected with anything spiritual or mystical, or with afterlife, or origin, or anything like that. Both Vulcans (at least if Spock's description or Sybok's ranting is to be trusted) and Dr. Sevrin simply seem to think that Eden is a very nice place that is known to exist and to survive in "pure" form - a bit like Prester John was believed in European history to be a real ruler in a real land, even if the specifics weren't known...
Klingons equate Sha-Ka-Ree with their Qui'tu, which isn't the same as their afterlife-paradise Gre'thor. It's not really established to be their origin-paradise, either, though.
Timo Saloniemi
A fair point (never watched TAS much if ever, really, and I'm still enough of a fogey to remember the days nobody would dare bring it up in a canon debate, gosh darn it, even the quasi-canonical "Yesteryear").
Yeah, they have an Eden myth, that doesn't mean they believed in it anymore.
Evidence points to them having abandoned it for the more enlightened, grittier theology of the Dan'Yul Crag.
^"Dan'Yul Crag"....
Okay...FWIW, I've been toying in my fanfic with Surak being open to such notions as "fate".
He noted in his writings (according to me, anyway
), that his reforms came at precisely the right time in history.
Had his ideas been proposed earlier, they would have been rejected as extreme and unneccessary.
Had they came later...Vulcan would already have destroyed itself through war.
Put two-and-two together...and it implies predestination. I.e., Surak was meant to bring reform to Vulcan society....
Okay...FWIW, I've been toying in my fanfic with Surak being open to such notions as "fate".
He noted in his writings (according to me, anyway
), that his reforms came at precisely the right time in history.Had his ideas been proposed earlier, they would have been rejected as extreme and unneccessary.
Had they came later...Vulcan would already have destroyed itself through war.
Put two-and-two together...and it implies predestination. I.e., Surak was meant to bring reform to Vulcan society....
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