And there was the deleted scene where Spock asked Kirk to phaser T'Pring.
Did Kirk's rather *enthusiastic* execution of Nero bug you?
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I really enjoyed the new movie, it's a long time coming and am looking forward to the future. But, you have a point, it was a little disturbing-but probably done simply for a quick laugh and hopefully not a permanent personality attribute of Kirk.
You hit the nail on the head though: "texting, angsty"; ha ha. We can all agree these are not positive traits to be admired; and yes, death should not be snickered at; even for bad guys.
Satisfaction and a sense of justice at a bad guy getting his punishment is superior to snickering or even cold hearted apathy.
Hopefully Captain Kirk is not a snickering, apathetic Valley Girl.
i went back and looked and you are right about when we acutally see kirk smile in the movie.
really during the narada sequence he seems to be pretty grim about doing what he believed had to be done once nero refused to surrender.
only after they got caught in the gravity well (after narada was gone) and they are able to escape almost at the last second do you see a smile of relief on kirks face.
considering how some of the really grim tos episodes ended with a laugh on the bridge that was rather tame and understandale.
Nero had just destroyed Vulcan, and attempted to destroy Earth. If a guy had robbed your house, burnt it to the ground, murdered your family, raped and murdered your wife, would you be lenient on him?
No. I don't think so. Nero had it coming.
No. I don't think so. Nero had it coming.
I think the situation was completed satisfactorily.
What would happen if someone killed the US president?
What kind of chance would you take with someone who just killed 6 billion and attempted to kill billions more? Would you just hope that the black-hole thingy would kill him? Remember, he was condemned to death anyway you see it.
Furthermore as captain of his ship Nero spoke for its crew - so there was no reason to try and rescue armed Romulans in the hope that they would appreciate the help.
What would happen if someone killed the US president?
What kind of chance would you take with someone who just killed 6 billion and attempted to kill billions more? Would you just hope that the black-hole thingy would kill him? Remember, he was condemned to death anyway you see it.
Furthermore as captain of his ship Nero spoke for its crew - so there was no reason to try and rescue armed Romulans in the hope that they would appreciate the help.
I think the situation was completed satisfactorily.
What would happen if someone killed the US president?
What kind of chance would you take with someone who just killed 6 billion and attempted to kill billions more? Would you just hope that the black-hole thingy would kill him? Remember, he was condemned to death anyway you see it.
Furthermore as captain of his ship Nero spoke for its crew - so there was no reason to try and rescue armed Romulans in the hope that they would appreciate the help.
What would happen if someone killed the US president?
What kind of chance would you take with someone who just killed 6 billion and attempted to kill billions more? Would you just hope that the black-hole thingy would kill him? Remember, he was condemned to death anyway you see it.
Furthermore as captain of his ship Nero spoke for its crew - so there was no reason to try and rescue armed Romulans in the hope that they would appreciate the help.
Unfortunately, this very question shows why this movie was completely devoid of morality from the word go.
The problem isn't whether or not Nero should have died, but rather the 6 billion.
What is the message of this film? Pretty simple. That 6 billion lives is a small price to pay for what we're supposed to see as destiny.
I can't think of another Trek captain in the history of the franchise who would have let that stand, even if it meant killing themselves to fix it.
The Star Trek solution to this question? Let the Enterprise get sucked through the rift and be there waiting in the past for Nero to show up the first time. Saving Vulcan. Saving Kirk's father. Saving Spock's mother, and possibly even saving Romulus in the process.
But, hey, the guy who spent the entire film screwing up, hanging for dear life while somebody else saves the day, and getting the crap kicked out of him somehow ends up in the big chair and all is right with the world.
sometimes trying to change history just screws up things that much more.
in a basic way it is one of the themes of city on the edge of forever.
and what you suggest probably wouldnt work.
even if the narada's warp drive wasnt functioning right away (why i suspect spock prime wasnt able to evade the narada right after coming through the rift)a lot of the narada's weaponry was still functional.
nero would just wipe out the enterprise and this time they might lose more then vulcan.
that is if one dosnt take into account the movie's idea of time like streams with alternating currents.
really in trek it is possible that time through an artificial construct like the guardian is different from say the loop around the sun sling shot thingee.
we sorta get a hint of this in assignment:earth.
all of the funky stuff that happened in the end just seemed to blend into history.
oh yeah and here are the quotes from devil in the dark..
kirk and spock have split up and are in different tunnels..
so taking into account spock knows nero is a proven killer who had planned to wipe out the rest of the federation worlds .. and who had killed his mother and his home planet..
what spock said in the movie is pretty believable to me.
in a basic way it is one of the themes of city on the edge of forever.
and what you suggest probably wouldnt work.
even if the narada's warp drive wasnt functioning right away (why i suspect spock prime wasnt able to evade the narada right after coming through the rift)a lot of the narada's weaponry was still functional.
nero would just wipe out the enterprise and this time they might lose more then vulcan.
that is if one dosnt take into account the movie's idea of time like streams with alternating currents.
really in trek it is possible that time through an artificial construct like the guardian is different from say the loop around the sun sling shot thingee.
we sorta get a hint of this in assignment:earth.
all of the funky stuff that happened in the end just seemed to blend into history.
oh yeah and here are the quotes from devil in the dark..
kirk and spock have split up and are in different tunnels..
so taking into account spock knows nero is a proven killer who had planned to wipe out the rest of the federation worlds .. and who had killed his mother and his home planet..
what spock said in the movie is pretty believable to me.
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Agreed.
LOL, you say that like it was a law of physics. It's fiction, they can do anything they want and achieve the outcome they want. The 'reset button' would have been a plot device heavily needed in this movie. At least the option should have been mentioned. I mean NOBODY, not even the original Spock, thought about stopping Nero where it all began, to save the Kelvin, Kirk's father, and 6 billion Vulcans. They just accept the destruction of half of the fleet and a major planet, execute Nero and then they are all happy again. Geez.
how are you going to stop the narada..
the narada blew away all those other starfleet ships plus who knows how many other vulcan ships like skipping through the park.
and we saw from what happened with spock prime and the narada that there is a very big chance enterprise if they had just followed through the rift would have come out years or decades later.
the narada blew away all those other starfleet ships plus who knows how many other vulcan ships like skipping through the park.
and we saw from what happened with spock prime and the narada that there is a very big chance enterprise if they had just followed through the rift would have come out years or decades later.
I think the main issue that I have is why did Kirk need to fire at the Narada at all?
Kirk specifically states that his ship was too close to the singularity (Even though it was in the middle of their ship) to survive. That would make sense given the following facts.
1. Nero's crew were fleeing from their stations in panic. If they could survive the singularity like they did in the past, you would think they'd be doing the best they could to get out of it or at least save the ship.
2. The Narada was BREAKING APART. You can clearly see huge chunks of the Narada being ripped apart behind Nero's face on the view screen, especially when he says "a thousand times". This is before the Enterprise open fires on the ship.
3. In the commentary, JJ himself states that the singularity was going to kill the Narada. Heck, another commentator said that it's position in the singularity was causing it's destruction so there you have that.
4. The idea that Kirk thought of Nero escaping further into the past and causing more damage is giving him WAY too much credit. Even in the book it states that the Narada was incapable of traveling back in time the way the singularity was reacting.
5.
In conclusion, I find that Kirk's actions to fire all weapons on the Narada to be unnecessary, unwarranted and unprofessional. The Narada wasn't posing a threat to anyone. They don't have any red matter, It's shields were down, it couldn't fire it's weapons and was in the process of being destroyed. It's like if you were trying to help a bad guy who was drowning in the water and when he says he doesn't want your help, you pull a gun on him and kill him yourself. He wasn't posing a threat to you and was totally defenseless but you pull a gun on him and kill him anyways.
Kirk Actions.....FAIL
Kirk specifically states that his ship was too close to the singularity (Even though it was in the middle of their ship) to survive. That would make sense given the following facts.
1. Nero's crew were fleeing from their stations in panic. If they could survive the singularity like they did in the past, you would think they'd be doing the best they could to get out of it or at least save the ship.
2. The Narada was BREAKING APART. You can clearly see huge chunks of the Narada being ripped apart behind Nero's face on the view screen, especially when he says "a thousand times". This is before the Enterprise open fires on the ship.
3. In the commentary, JJ himself states that the singularity was going to kill the Narada. Heck, another commentator said that it's position in the singularity was causing it's destruction so there you have that.
4. The idea that Kirk thought of Nero escaping further into the past and causing more damage is giving him WAY too much credit. Even in the book it states that the Narada was incapable of traveling back in time the way the singularity was reacting.
5.
In conclusion, I find that Kirk's actions to fire all weapons on the Narada to be unnecessary, unwarranted and unprofessional. The Narada wasn't posing a threat to anyone. They don't have any red matter, It's shields were down, it couldn't fire it's weapons and was in the process of being destroyed. It's like if you were trying to help a bad guy who was drowning in the water and when he says he doesn't want your help, you pull a gun on him and kill him yourself. He wasn't posing a threat to you and was totally defenseless but you pull a gun on him and kill him anyways.
Kirk Actions.....FAIL
Kirks' Actions.....PASS!
Kirk, at the time, does not have any guarantee that the Narada would be destroyed by the black hole, only that it was breaking up (at least partially). How do YOU know it wasn't breaking apart by the gravitational forces of the black hole to be reassembled or enough of it to still be dangerous on the other side of the hole (past/future/elsewhere)? Kirk did not know what the outcome would be for the Narada. Destroying it was the only option he had to ensure it didn't appear elsewhen and cause more havoc.
Kirk, at the time, does not have any guarantee that the Narada would be destroyed by the black hole, only that it was breaking up (at least partially). How do YOU know it wasn't breaking apart by the gravitational forces of the black hole to be reassembled or enough of it to still be dangerous on the other side of the hole (past/future/elsewhere)? Kirk did not know what the outcome would be for the Narada. Destroying it was the only option he had to ensure it didn't appear elsewhen and cause more havoc.
Kirk: Your ship is compromised. Too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.
One little problem. They wouldn't be changing it. They'd be correcting it. History was already changed and two people who were now in a position to know how it should have been (Spock Prime and Kirk).
Besides, there are now 6 billion people dead that shouldn't be. How much worse could adding another 2-3 billion people from earth possibly have been.
Besides...
Well, Abrams' concept of time in the context of a Trek story is so screwed up to begin with that it's barely even a Trek story (of course, it's not a Trek story, it's a Star Wars story written with Trek characters, but, I digress).
But, your theory doesn't hold water for a couple of reasons.
1. If Kirk had failed in the past time would have simply progressed the same way and it would have ended up right back where they started. The destruction of a future Enterprise would have no bearing on how those events would have unfolded.
2. It's Star Trek. Kirk would have done it anyway and worried about the consequences later, which would have never occurred because he would have succeeded.
How? Kirk could have flown the Enterprise into Nero's ship as it came through the rift. Kirk dying would not be relevant.
I don't recall them blowing up a planet in "Assignment: Earth."
oh yeah and here are the quotes from devil in the dark..
kirk and spock have split up and are in different tunnels..
so taking into account spock knows nero is a proven killer who had planned to wipe out the rest of the federation worlds .. and who had killed his mother and his home planet..
what spock said in the movie is pretty believable to me.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but that also proves that Kirk never listens to him when he says such things. So, while you may be able to argue that Spock was in character, that then means that Kirk was not.
Either way the writing was flawed.
He did not know for sure it would be destroyed. He said that to convince Nero to surrender.
Exactly. As I said before, by about 2/3 of the way through the movie there were two people in the story who knew how time was SUPPOSED to unfold. That none of the above was supposed to happen. Spock Prime and Kirk (by virtue of the mind meld with Spock Prime).
We saw essentially this same setup in Yesterday's Enterprise, where a ship thrown from time screws up the entire timeline.
Picard, on nothing more than Guinan's intuition, sacrafices his entire ship and his chief of security for nothing more than a belief that it COULD fix things by doing so.
Spock Prime and Kirk KNEW how things were supposed to be and did NOTHING to correct it. Not only is it not consistent with those characters but with anything Trek has ever done.
I already answered this. The difference here is that the other ships had something to lose, those on the Enterprise did not.
Kirk could have ordered the crew to sacrifice itself (by ramming the Narada with the Enterprise) simply on his word that doing so would prevent any of this from happening. If it succeeds (which, since it's Trek it would have), the time line would be fixed and things would return to their proper course. If it had failed, then the time line we had seen in the movie would simply be repeated and we would have at least seen SOMETHING from this Kirk to warrant his command.
It's Star Trek. It's science fiction. It would have worked just fine.
At a minimum, they could have simply added another 10 minutes to the film taking place back where the film started, only this time actually saving Romulus and, thus, avoiding the entire thing to begin with.
Not quite as spectacular as blowing up the Enterprise, but it would work.
NO RESET BUTTON! It's better that way. Trust me.
(and if a Reset button was pressed, you wouldn't believe how many threads would be on here complaining how "oh, this "reboot" didn't take any chances", "oh, same old Trek, nothing new", etc...)
(and if a Reset button was pressed, you wouldn't believe how many threads would be on here complaining how "oh, this "reboot" didn't take any chances", "oh, same old Trek, nothing new", etc...)
It worked in Deja Vu just fine.
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