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Dukat going to the top?

I dunno, I think him trying to get the Pah Wraiths freed would have worked better in the overall plot if they had just toned down the "Antichrist" elements of it and made him less of a nutbag.

You'd have to sort of redefine and/or expand who the pah wraiths were, then.

They're basically eeeevil prophets, who got kicked out of the wormhole and want back in. That's sort of it, they exist solely to engage in frankly ridiculous cosmic warfare (prior to Dukat, that whole thing involving posession of Jake... yeah). I suppose it makes sense that the Bajoran faith have devils as much as they do gods, but a character like Dukat doesn't have much place in it.

The only way out of it I could see would be to give the pah wraiths actual characterisation, beings who see themselves wronged and misunderstood much as Dukat did - but that goes against the decidedly opaque approach DS9 had used (rather successfully) in depicting the Prophets.
 
I mean, Dukat decides that since the Prophets are the ones keeping reinforcements from coming through the Wormhole he can fix the war by getting rid of the Prophets. When he hears that there are enemies to the Prophets sealed somewhere he decides to free them without realizing (or caring) about the greater consequences of the freed Pah-Wraiths. So he pretends to be a Bajoran and seduce Winn to get them freed but it all backfires when he's possessed/transformed by them into their Anti-Emissary.
 
I always thought it might have been cool if the Pagh-Wraiths were actually nice. I mean, why wouldn't they be? I'd be grateful to the indistinguishible tiny meatbags that freed me and let me pulverize my eternal cosmic enemies. Further, if they are in fact dissident/evil Prophets, why would they give a crap about the material world anyway? The Prophets didn't, except for Bajor. And what's the grudge? Were the Pagh-Wraiths wormhole natives displaced by the far-future-Bajorans-cum-Prophets?

We'll never know, because no one cared enough to make them anything but demons. <_<
 
I would really like to see what Dukat had up his sleeve for exiting the Dominion and/or supplanting Weyoun as the solid who the Founder trusts.

I do not think the comparison to Damar or his quickly-executed replacement is an accurate way to view the situation.

Dukat was a better man, and better leader than Damar. He did indeed handle things alot better than Damar did during his time as partner with the Dominion. Accordingly, Dukat would not have become Weyoun's pawn as easily as Damar did.

Also, I don't agree with the statements that Dukat was never a good or nice guy. Dukat was both a good and nice guy for 6 years (granted, he had a few bad parts of himself too, but no one is perfect), right up until they consciously decided to assasinate his character in Waltz.
 
No he wasn't, he was always a villainous character. Just the affable kind whom you could be fooled by. Having a family, showing kindness and respect to others? Doesn't matter, he was still a bad guy and had been for years before the show started.

Heart of gold, cold and metallic.
 
Well, the DS9 writers set out to craft a credible, interesting and to a degree multifaceted villain with Gul Dukat, and they succeeded pretty well over the years. Problem is, they succeeded too well, with many fans actually defending the character as a good guy (such as in this thread.)

I'm not sure if that is what Behr in particular set out to do. Maybe Wolfe did and after Wolfe left, that gave way to Dukat being fubared?

In any case, although Behr saw Dukat being a multi-dimensional good guy as a problem, that is not really a problem.

The real problem is Behr's position on that.

There is absolutely no reason why Dukat had to be a villain at all, much less the one-dimensional caricature version of one that Behr turned him into as of the end of Waltz.

No, it is Behr's out-moded way of thinking that any character that has a different point of view than the main star must be a villain that is the real problem. I'm surprised Behr didn't realize that. IMO it is very incongruent how Behr is on the one hand capable of writing such interesting characters/stories, yet on the other hand, capable of destroying the six years of brilliant development of Dukat's character, for no good reason, like one would expect to be done by a far less-skilled writer than Behr, rather than Behr.

Please tell me that's tongue-in-cheek...
Dukat didn't formulate policy, he only implemented it, and he did what he could to make life better for the Bajorans. They were better off with him than they would have been with anyone else from Central Command.

Yeah, bullshit. Even if he was only implementing policy -- and I don't buy that for a second, considering that he himself was depicted as ordering numerous murders by the Cardassian military -- that still makes him guilty of collaborating with and implementing acts of mass murder, forced labor, genocide, massacres, rape, and oppression. Even if he didn't set the policies, he implemented them. And as the Nuremberg trials established, "Just following orders" isn't an excuse.

Dukat was a war criminal, pure and simple.

I say that the original quotation by USS Bones is accurate and the quotation in response by Sci is not.

Dukat had nothing to do with massacres, rapes, or oppression. Especially not rapes - Dukat is a moral man who would never stand for such sickening behaviour to occur on his watch. I feel disgusting even having to bring that up in order to respond to this post.

Nuremberg has no relevance at all to Dukat.

Dukat did the best he could to improve Bajorans' quality of life while working under the restrictions he had from the powers above him. There is no way to ask more of him than that. No man can do more than his best.

IMO they did a pretty good job of showing how nasty Dukat is in the occupation arc without resorting to character assassination.

On the contrary, the occupation arc showed how Dukat is a nice and good guy, and all that he really wants is to be appreciated, which by the way, is a basic need that every person has.

Dukat said during that arc that he would only kill people if it is absolutely necessary. If he was a bad guy like many members are claiming, he would not have felt that way and he would not have said that.

"If I don't rape that girl, someone else will, and he might kill her too! Obviously I've got to rape her first to stop it!"

What's up with you excessively calling Dukat a rapist? Not only is that inaccurate, it's also in extremely, extremely poor taste.:rolleyes:
 
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No he wasn't, he was always a villainous character. Just the affable kind whom you could be fooled by. Having a family, showing kindness and respect to others? Doesn't matter, he was still a bad guy and had been for years before the show started.

Heart of gold, cold and metallic.
he was also a man of great bravery, battling klingons with their weapons in hand-to-hand combat requires courage, and so does attacking a klingon warship with a freighter. he would never surrender, but continue to fight. his concern was cardassia, humiliated by the federation, the maquis, and the klingons. it is legitimate for a people as accomplished and resourceful as the cardassians to remain independent, but they were smaller and weaker than the neighbours ufp, klingon and romulan empires. to battle for cardassia's independence simply required tactics one might conceive as unfair.

ultimately, the dominion war was won by section 31. what is probably not good for the ufp, section 31 becomes more influential.

i have no idea why some try to compare dukat, the ultimate survivor, with weyoun who got himself killed 7 times or so in 4 seasons. all authority weyoun wielded was given to him by the founders, dukat accomplished everything by himself.
 
Being brave doesn't make you a good man, it just means you're brave. Plenty of psychopaths, criminals and tyrants are brave as well. Doesn't make them admirable people.
 
I'm afraid I agree with Anwar on that point 100%, and I'd like to add that in the case of both Garak and Dukat in the scene to which I think you're referring (namely The Way of the Warrior) I'd say it was down to a kind of brazen arrogance just as much as bravery. Those men both felt they were better than the Klingons, and it so happened that they were proved right. One stray disruptor blast though, and the story would have been much different. I'm pretty sure a death scene for Dukat there would have had a look of sheer surprise on his face, as if to say "not like this, surely? My destiny is much greater..."

ultimately, the dominion war was won by section 31. what is probably not good for the ufp, section 31 becomes more influential.

Scary thought ain't it. Thankfully they only rear their heads from time to time... or so we think!

i have no idea why some try to compare dukat, the ultimate survivor, with weyoun who got himself killed 7 times or so in 4 seasons. all authority weyoun wielded was given to him by the founders, dukat accomplished everything by himself.

That's kind of why I made the thread - I wanted to see whether or not people thought he could have taken Weyoun's position over as well as everything else he'd managed to accrue over his life.
 
No he wasn't, he was always a villainous character. Just the affable kind whom you could be fooled by. Having a family, showing kindness and respect to others? Doesn't matter, he was still a bad guy and had been for years before the show started.

Heart of gold, cold and metallic.

Exactly!

He sold his soul and eventually he paid the price that the buyer demanded. It was always that simple, right from the start, but because of his deception of others, and his self-deception, people simply refused to see it.
 
I'm not sure if that is what Behr in particular set out to do. Maybe Wolfe did and after Wolfe left, that gave way to Dukat being fubared?

In any case, although Behr saw Dukat being a multi-dimensional good guy as a problem, that is not really a problem.

The real problem is Behr's position on that.

There is absolutely no reason why Dukat had to be a villain at all, much less the one-dimensional caricature version of one that Behr turned him into as of the end of Waltz.

No, it is Behr's out-moded way of thinking that any character that has a different point of view than the main star must be a villain that is the real problem. I'm surprised Behr didn't realize that. IMO it is very incongruent how Behr is on the one hand capable of writing such interesting characters/stories, yet on the other hand, capable of destroying the six years of brilliant development of Dukat's character, for no good reason, like one would expect to be done by a far less-skilled writer than Behr, rather than Behr.
This part I agree with you on - there was no need to shoehorn characters into boxes and have "villain", "antagonist", "protagonist" as their defining characteristics. Spelling it out for the audience and beating them over the head over a moral judgment of the character is counterproductive and it usually lowers the artistic value of the work. I was really disappointed both with what Behr did with the characterization of Dukat and with his explanations of why it was done.

IMO, a writer should be happy for having created a convincing, interesting and layered character, and leave it up to audience to decide how they feel.

Sure, some people will have a completely different interpretation of the characters and moral standpoints from what the writers intended - but that's only to be expected. People are never going to agree 100%.

Just like, in this case, I completely disagree with you on Dukat being a "good person"...

Yeah, bullshit. Even if he was only implementing policy -- and I don't buy that for a second, considering that he himself was depicted as ordering numerous murders by the Cardassian military -- that still makes him guilty of collaborating with and implementing acts of mass murder, forced labor, genocide, massacres, rape, and oppression. Even if he didn't set the policies, he implemented them. And as the Nuremberg trials established, "Just following orders" isn't an excuse.

Dukat was a war criminal, pure and simple.

I say that the original quotation by USS Bones is accurate and the quotation in response by Sci is not.

Dukat had nothing to do with massacres, rapes, or oppression. Especially not rapes - Dukat is a moral man who would never stand for such sickening behaviour to occur on his watch. I feel disgusting even having to bring that up in order to respond to this post.

Nuremberg has no relevance at all to Dukat.

Dukat did the best he could to improve Bajorans' quality of life while working under the restrictions he had from the powers above him. There is no way to ask more of him than that. No man can do more than his best.
Dukat had everything to do with the massacres, rapes and oppression, and not just those he personally ordered but also everything else that Cardassians were doing to Bajorans, because he was the head of the Occupation and nothing could have happened without his approval or at the very least implied consent, which even at best, makes him at least an an accomplice or accessory after the fact. And we know that there are a lot of things he was directly responsible for and that we've seen him give orders for - enslavement of Bajorans as workers in ore processing on Terok Nor under very difficult and unhealthy conditions, sexual enslavement of Bajoran women, executions.

Was Dukat as a prefect better than some other prefects might have been? Possibly, though we don't know for sure. But if some other guy is a bigger asshole than you, that still doesn't make you a good guy. Dukat's argument that he tried to be good and lenient as much as he could under the circumstances would sound much better if he had ever recognized that the Occupation itself was wrong. The Cardassians had no business being there in the first place, they had no right to strip Bajor's resources, spoil its land, and turn its people into slaves. If he had ever acknowledged that and accepted his share of responsibility, his case would have looked much better. But he always thought of Bajorans as inferior, and seemed to believe that Cardassians were entitled to simply take whatever they needed/wanted from them, that he was entitled to their love and admiration. Basically, he expected an entire planet to develop a Stockholm Syndrome and be grateful to him for not killing them all and not being as awful to them that he could have been. :rolleyes:

IMO they did a pretty good job of showing how nasty Dukat is in the occupation arc without resorting to character assassination.

On the contrary, the occupation arc showed how Dukat is a nice and good guy, and all that he really wants is to be appreciated, which by the way, is a basic need that every person has.

Dukat said during that arc that he would only kill people if it is absolutely necessary. If he was a bad guy like many members are claiming, he would not have felt that way and he would not have said that.
That does not follow. Say, if someone kidnaps you, keeps you imprisoned for weeks and extorts money from your family, but keeps you relatively unharmed during that time, does that mean that they are "good people"? If someone robs a bank and kills a couple of people in the process, and keeps other people hostage but does not kill more than "absolutely necessary", would you call them good? I think that most people would kill only when "absolutely necessary" - but the definition of "absolutely necessary" varies. One may think that "absolutely necessary" is only in self-defense or defense of another person, while someone else might find it absolutely necessary to have someone killed because they have compromising information about them that might destroy their career, a bank robber may find it "absolutely necessary" to kill certain people in order to conduct a robbery, a mobster may find it absolutely necessary to kill a few people because they are endangering his business, a head of an occupation force might find it absolutely necessary to kill some people in order to put fear unto the population. You might claim that they are better than people who kill out of sheer sadism and bloodlust - but it still doesn't mean that those murderers are good people.

I don't see how the Occupation arc showed Dukat to be a good person, but I guess we may have very different ideas of what constitutes a "nice" or "good person". Of course, he has some good personal qualities. Sure, he is brave - we've seen it with the Maquis kidnapping, the personal war with the Klingons, and standing up to Cardassian society and claiming Ziyal. But that on its own is not enough to make one a good guy - plenty of murders, criminals and tyrants were brave, too. He is intelligent, articulate and charming. Which, again, says nothing about one's moral character and their moral choices or their deeds. A person with those qualities might be wonderful, or a complete sociopath, and might do great or terrible things.

And of course he has basic needs that every person, or most people have - like being appreciated. But how does that tell us anything about him being a good person or not? As you said - wanting to be loved and appreciated is a basic need, like food or drink or a comfortable environment. It's how you do about getting these things that determines what kind of person you are. A good person does not take away the freedom of other people, does not try to force, blackmail or manipulate them into loving or appreciating them. A good person respects someone they claim to love and treats them as an equal, and does not demand more than he himself is ready to give in return. On the other hand, in Dukat I see a narcissistic, condescending, power-hungry person who is incapable of treating anyone as an equal, and who thinks that everyone should bow down to his greatness and obey him. On top of it, he's racist (believes that Bajorans are inferior to Cardassians) and an epitome of the "White Man's Burden" mentality. He thinks that his former slaves should have been grateful for having their freedom taken away and adore him for treating them less horribly than he could have. He loves his daughter, but is capable of disowning her when she disobeys him. And we better not start about his relationships with women... There's something particularly unsavory about a man who likes to keep concubines of the race that he considers inferior - and who, despite having relationships with the women from the "inferior race" for years, having children with them, and claiming to "love" them, never abandons his racist attitude. I can understand racism and prejudice from people who haven't had enough chances to get to know people of that race, but this... This seems more like your classic colonialist/slaveowner who enjoys "native" women exactly because those concubines do not have the status of an equal and can't challenge his position of power. If he was really a nice guy, he would have wanted to help starving families without asking anything in return, rather than using it to blackmail women into becoming sex slaves for him and his soldiers. The fact that he treats them relatively well, attempts to charm them and claims to love them (and I don't doubt that he believes that, it's what passes as love is his mind), doesn't change the fact that they are slaves, it only adds the additional emotional manipulation on top of it all. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that being treated the way Dukat treated his concubines is a lot more pleasant and preferable to being beaten, brutally raped, verbally insulted and openly treated as a thing - but a golden cage is still a cage. Let's see... If the woman cannot leave on her own will, cannot decide to end the relationship if she wants to, cannot see or contact her family, her children and husband, has no friends to spend time with, has nowhere to go and nothing to do except what her master/lover allows her to; while the man has absolute power to decide what happens to her, and could any moment, if he wanted to, dump her, replace her, throw her out, send her to ore processing, give her to one of his soldiers, or kill her/have her killed (not saying he would actually do it - just that he would have the power to), and while he himself is free to have other mistresses he chooses and to regularly visit his wife and children back home, and have more children with his wife and his other mistresses... would you call that an equal relationship? It sure sounds like slavery to me.
 
He is a failure in everything he puts his hand to. Name one project Dukat set out to accomplish at which he succeeded. Not one. It's not just because he's an egomaniac. He's also an idiot. The words that come out of his mouth are not thought out, they are parroted. He is full of excuses about why he fails, and like all idiots, he blames other people. No, Dukat would never rise in Cardassian politics. He isn't smart enough. Oh, he thinks he's clever, and he's full of himself, but he always manages to bungle it. He's simply a stupid person. He's a bit like Salieri at the end of Amadeus crying, "I am a mediocrity!"
 
i join those who believe an enlightened ruler like dukat was far to good for the thugs which the bajoran people are, what they deserved would have been the iron fist to protect them from themselves. we must thank voyager's great 7th season to pull the mask of piousness from the face of the bajorans, and to reveal the ruthlessnes, and viciousness hidden behind.

episode 'repression', vedek teero who conducted expriments of utmost brutality with tuvok's mind http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/Teero.jpg

'flesh and blood', iden, the fanatical and murderous leader of the photonic terrorists http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/Iden.jpg

'author, author', commander katanay, 1th officer of the starship vortex. a cruel thug who concurred with captain jenkins murdering a crewmember in cold blood in the sickbay http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/HoloKatanay.jpg

i have no doubt that history will eventually value the time of cardassian stewardship of bajor as a period of peace and progress.
 
Every now and again I'm forced to shake my head and sigh when I read something that's a little bit too blinkered or biased and I think this ticks that box...

i join those who believe an enlightened ruler like dukat was far to good for the thugs which the bajoran people are, what they deserved would have been the iron fist to protect them from themselves. we must thank voyager's great 7th season to pull the mask of piousness from the face of the bajorans, and to reveal the ruthlessnes, and viciousness hidden behind.

episode 'repression', vedek teero who conducted expriments of utmost brutality with tuvok's mind http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/Teero.jpg

'flesh and blood', iden, the fanatical and murderous leader of the photonic terrorists http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/Iden.jpg

'author, author', commander katanay, 1th officer of the starship vortex. a cruel thug who concurred with captain jenkins murdering a crewmember in cold blood in the sickbay http://ditl.org/thumbs/peoplepics/HoloKatanay.jpg

i have no doubt that history will eventually value the time of cardassian stewardship of bajor as a period of peace and progress.

First up, "the thugs which the bajoran people are" indicates one of three things - one that you've not watched much DS9 at all, two that you have and your memory is pretty bad or three that you think you're a Cardassian in real life. The Bajorans aren't perfect, but they certainly aren't thugs as a people. Aside from anything else the whole of the Bajoran population wasn't involved in the resistance. Some helped the Cardassians, some just got on with things either in labour camps or not if they were lucky enough not to have gone there, and some continued serving the Prophets in a pacifistic way. Before that they have always been described as an artistic and good natured people. No thuggery involved. Do some watching or research before you make sweeping, biased statements.

Secondly, yes those 3 people could be described as thugs or brutes, but they're not representative of the Bajoran people as a whole either. The holograms programmed by the Hirogen were made to fit stereotypes, and they picked Iden to be a stereotypical terrorist. He's therefore not really a Bajoran, more something programmed by people who didn't know their people to act in a specific way. He just looks like a Bajoran.

From what I remember about Teero he wasn't exactly the most balanced person I remember. That's like judging the whole of the Cardassian race only on the actions of Gul Madred, ignoring the fact that in that same episode, Chain of Command, while Gul Lemec's motivations aren't entirely proper he conducts himself in a reasonably decent way when held up to human morals by backing down in the end.

As for Katanay... he was a holonovel character. Why he was picked as a Bajoran I don't know, but he was supposed to be based on Chakotay...

So basically you're judging the whole Bajoran race on 3 one-episode guest appearances, 2 of which are from holograms, and all of which are from Voyager. Smooth choice of references.
 
you need to watch more voyager. always liked the way it portrayed the cardassians, apart from seska in a rather positive light. i do have more references concerning the proverbial ruthlessness of the bajorans. tng's 'parallels'. in one of the quantum realities, the enterprise was attacked by a bajoran ship, and we were informed that the bajorans had just conquered cardassia. there's also ds9's mirror universe, with bajor having joined the alliance which enslaved humanity. indendant kira even seems to be a better tempered person than major kira, who beats peaceful males like lamar on a regular basis up. just because they happen to be cardassians. ro laren betrayed starfleet, and picard in particular. the bajoran petty criminal kainon murdered aamin marritza, just because marritza was cardassian. want me to continue?
 
I do have more references concerning the proverbial ruthlessness of the Bajorans. TNG's 'Parallels'. in one of the quantum realities, the Enterprise was attacked by a Bajoran ship, and we were informed that the Bajorans had just conquered Cardassia.
Alternate reality. In another alternate reality in that episode, we saw Riker go insane and attack another Enterprise. Does this mean prime Riker is also insane?
There's also DS9's mirror universe, with Bajor having joined the Alliance which enslaved humanity.
The mirror universe is the mirror universe. Things are really screwed there. Earth formed a ruthless interstellar police state there. Does this mean humanity in the prime universe is evil too?
Indendant Kira even seems to be a better tempered person than Major Kira, who beats peaceful males like Damar on a regular basis up. Just because they happen to be Cardassians.
Mirror Kira doesn't remotely seem better tempered then prime Kira to me. She beat Damar up because he was being an asshole and taking Ziyal to Dukat against her will. Later on, she joined his resistance and helped free Cardassia.
Ro Laren betrayed Starfleet, and Picard in particular.
So did Chakotay. Does this mean he is an evil man, and thus all of humanity?
The Bajoran petty criminal Kainon murdered Aamin Marritza, just because Marritza was Cardassian.
Yes. So a single evil induvidual means all people are evil?
There is also this really neat key called shift on your keyboard, that you may want to press at the start of each sentence and name.
 
you need to watch more voyager.
No, you don't.

Suggesting someone to watch VOY for exploration and development of Bajorans and Cardassians, especially after having seen DS9, sounds like a good joke.

I always liked the way it portrayed the cardassians, apart from seska in a rather positive light.
:cardie: :wtf: Voyager was absolutely frakking racist to the Cardassians - see Nothing Human. Nobody calls Harry Kim on his casual racism - "they are not the nicest species in the galaxy" :rolleyes: Thank you for your generalizations about an entire species, Harry! In DS9 and TNG, O'Brien and Kira's initial prejudice towards Cardassians is something that the episodes confront them with and that they eventually overcome, particularly Kira, whose relationships with Cardassians and eventually fighting alongside Cardassians in the Resistance against Dominion was a crucial part of her amazing journey as a character during the 7 seasons of DS9. And they, especially Kira, had damn good reasons to hate Cardassians - what is Harry's excuse? It's obvious that we were just supposed to take that statement at face value. Don't get me started on B'Elanna, who is definitely racist and hateful towards Cardassians in general (and frankly, she doesn't have tenth as much reason to be angry at Cardassians that Kira does, I mean she basically, what, went to join the Maquis because she didn't fit in Starfleet and didn't know what to do with her life? What had Cardassians exactly done to her?) to the point of idiocy - supposedly she would rather die than have a hologram who looks like a Cardassian help in her treatment? Give me a break :rolleyes: And then the worst of it is that the episode does its best to justify her idiocy. So EMH likes this hologram based on a Cardassian, who seems like a nice, friendly guy he can relate to, but B'Elanna hates the hologram just because he looks Cardassian. Then the guy they based the hologram on turns out to be a Cardassian version of Dr Mengele, and everyone starts treating the hologram like it's actually Crell Moset, which is idiotic in itself (EMH should hope that Lewis Zimmerman never commits any crime, or else...), and B'Elanna says, quote "So I was right". Um, B'Elanna didn't have a problem with the hologram because it was based on/looked like Crell Moset - she had no idea who Moset even was or what he looked like! B'Elanna had problems because it was a Cardassian. So what was B'Elanna right about? That all Cardassians are bad? :vulcan:

The weirdest thing about that episode is that its writer, Jeri Taylor, previously wrote TNG The Wounded, which introduced the Cardassians and presented them in a complex way, and intelligently and sensitively dealt with the issue of O'Brien's racism. What the hell happened? :cardie:

i do have more references concerning the proverbial ruthlessness of the bajorans. tng's 'parallels'. in one of the quantum realities, the enterprise was attacked by a bajoran ship, and we were informed that the bajorans had just conquered cardassia. there's also ds9's mirror universe, with bajor having joined the alliance which enslaved humanity. indendant kira even seems to be a better tempered person than major kira, who beats peaceful males like lamar on a regular basis up. just because they happen to be cardassians. ro laren betrayed starfleet, and picard in particular. the bajoran petty criminal kainon murdered aamin marritza, just because marritza was cardassian. want me to continue?
:rolleyes:

You would be an excellent war propagandist. To use a Voyager reference, it's as one-sided as the propaganda of the Vori from Nemesis. You know how to use the mechanisms of demonization of an "enemy": just list and emphasize every negative thing and act that we've ever seen from Bajorans - even in parallel universes... :cardie: ...while ignoring everything good, and conveniently forgetting everything awful that the Cardassians have done to Bajorans. How about you continue by trying to list the latter? That would take you a bit longer... Or anything bad that any other race in Trek has done, including Humans. There are screwed-up and criminal individuals in each race, does that mean that the entire race should be condemned? Or are you applying such generalizations only to Bajorans?

And who is Lamar? If you mean Damar, he was a racist jerk and anything but peaceful, and the only reason Kira beat him was that he was harassing Ziyal for being half-Bajoran.
 
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There's also DS9's mirror universe, with Bajor having joined the Alliance which enslaved humanity.
The mirror universe is the mirror universe. Things are really screwed there. Earth formed a ruthless interstellar police state there. Does this mean humanity in the prime universe is evil too?
And Cardassian Union was one of the founding members of the Alliance in that MU, so this hardly helps KaiWinn's point.


Ro Laren betrayed Starfleet, and Picard in particular.
So did Chakotay. Does this mean he is an evil man, and thus all of humanity?
... Eddington, Cal Hudson, Tom Riker...

The Bajoran petty criminal Kainon murdered Aamin Marritza, just because Marritza was Cardassian.
Yes. So a single evil induvidual means all people are evil?
Gul Dar'heel committed genocide against the Bajorans, murdered, tortured and abused thousands of them, just because they were Bajorans. So does that make all Cardassians evil? That was exactly Kainon's logic. So basically, Kai Winn's post condemns Kainon while supporting his position. How ironic.
 
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