the thin-gay line

[Vanyel]

Bashir and O'Brien in "Hippocratic Oath" (Season 4)

O'Brien: "Keiko only spends a few days at a time on the station. I'm the one living in those quarters. And if I wanna set up... a little workshop in the bedroom..."
Bashir: "You set up a workshop in the bedroom?"
O'Brien: "Yeah. I don't use it when she's visiting."
Bashir: "No, of course not."
O'Brien: "She says that I'm trying to live like a bachelor again. That I'm expressing a subconcious desire to push her out of our quarters."
Bashir: "Now, that is ridiculous! I mean, if anything, by spending your free time in the bedroom, a place you intimately associate with Keiko, you're actually expressing a desire to be closer to her, during her absence. It's quite touching, really!"
O'Brien: "Exactly! Exactly! See, you understand! Now why can't she see that? Why can't she be more like, uh..."
Bashir: "More like...?"
O'Brien: "Err, um, a man, more like a man."
Bashir: "So. You wish Keiko was a man."

Am I the only one who thought the scene would continue like this?

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?
Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please.
Whenever you're with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?

BASHIR:
Of course not.

O’BRIEN:
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?

BASHIR:
Nonsense.

O’BRIEN:
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?

BASHIR:
Never.

O’BRIEN:
Well, why can't a woman be like you?
One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then, there's one with slight defects.
One perhaps whose truthfulness you doubt a bit,
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!
Why can't a woman take after a man?
'Cause men are so friendly, good natured, and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner would you bellow?

BASHIR:
Of course not.

O’BRIEN:
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

BASHIR:
Nonsense.

O’BRIEN:
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

BASHIRE:
Never.

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be like us?

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps;
Ready to help you through any mishaps;
Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?
Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?

My Fair Lady

 

[iguana_tonante]

Patrick Stewart is not gay.
I've noticed a lot of Americans seem to confuse being British with being homosexual. We're not all gay.

 

[Commander Rabbit]

Am I the only one who thought the scene would continue like this?

Nope, you're not the only one! But good for you for getting the lyrics. I was too lazy.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Bashir and O'Brien in "Hippocratic Oath" (Season 4)

O'Brien: "Keiko only spends a few days at a time on the station. I'm the one living in those quarters. And if I wanna set up... a little workshop in the bedroom..."
Bashir: "You set up a workshop in the bedroom?"
O'Brien: "Yeah. I don't use it when she's visiting."
Bashir: "No, of course not."
O'Brien: "She says that I'm trying to live like a bachelor again. That I'm expressing a subconcious desire to push her out of our quarters."
Bashir: "Now, that is ridiculous! I mean, if anything, by spending your free time in the bedroom, a place you intimately associate with Keiko, you're actually expressing a desire to be closer to her, during her absence. It's quite touching, really!"
O'Brien: "Exactly! Exactly! See, you understand! Now why can't she see that? Why can't she be more like, uh..."
Bashir: "More like...?"
O'Brien: "Err, um, a man, more like a man."
Bashir: "So. You wish Keiko was a man."

Am I the only one who thought the scene would continue like this?

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?
Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please.
Whenever you're with them, you're always at ease.
Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?

BASHIR:
Of course not.

O’BRIEN:
Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?

BASHIR:
Nonsense.

O’BRIEN:
Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?

BASHIR:
Never.

O’BRIEN:
Well, why can't a woman be like you?
One man in a million may shout a bit.
Now and then, there's one with slight defects.
One perhaps whose truthfulness you doubt a bit,
But by and large we are a marvelous sex!
Why can't a woman take after a man?
'Cause men are so friendly, good natured, and kind.
A better companion you never will find.
If I were hours late for dinner would you bellow?

BASHIR:
Of course not.

O’BRIEN:
If I forgot your silly birthday, would you fuss?

BASHIR:
Nonsense.

O’BRIEN:
Would you complain if I took out another fellow?

BASHIRE:
Never.

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be like us?

O’BRIEN:
Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so decent, such regular chaps;
Ready to help you through any mishaps;
Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum.
Why can't a woman be a chum?
Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?
Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?

My Fair Lady

That would certainly have kicked the gay aspect into high gear.

 

[The Castellan]

When did Quark have a sex-change?

 

[Chrisisall]

When did Quark have a sex-change?

That's really random.

 

[Tom Riley]

Patrick Stewart is not gay.

I've noticed a lot of Americans seem to confuse being British with being homosexual. We're not all gay.

Wow, I somehow never noticed the second half of your reply to me until notte_silente quoted it.

Um, no, sorry. I personally know several british people and I do NOT think british people are all gay. In fact, Out of all the british guys I can think of off the top of my head that aren't confirmed gays, Patrick Stewart is the ONLY one that I think might be gay. So... yeah. I actually have a fairly deep respect for the UK and its culture and history. Please don't try to portray me as some dumb American who thinks that anyone who doesn't act like us must not be "normal". On that note, I myself am gay, and I think I would also know the difference between being british and being what I am. Thank you very much.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Patrick Stewart is not gay.

I've noticed a lot of Americans seem to confuse being British with being homosexual. We're not all gay.

Wow, I somehow never noticed the second half of your reply to me until notte_silente quoted it.

Um, no, sorry. I personally know several british people and I do NOT think british people are all gay. In fact, Out of all the british guys I can think of off the top of my head that aren't confirmed gays, Patrick Stewart is the ONLY one that I think might be gay. So... yeah. I actually have a fairly deep respect for the UK and its culture and history. Please don't try to portray me as some dumb American who thinks that anyone who doesn't act like us must not be "normal". On that note, I myself am gay, and I think I would also know the difference between being british and being what I am. Thank you very much.

Actually, I think what Tomalak said was mostly in jest. At least, it's how it came off to me.

 

[WillsBabe]

Out of all the british guys I can think of off the top of my head that aren't confirmed gays, Patrick Stewart is the ONLY one that I think might be gay.

I've had a gay vibe off PS for years. I've always dismissed it as his "theatrical nature", but despite the fact that he's had loads of relationships with women, if he came out tomorrow it really wouldn't surpirse me.

 

[barnaclelapse]

He played a gay guy on Frasier once.

That totally proves it, right? Right?

 

[DevilEyes]

He played a gay guy on Frasier once.

That totally proves it, right? Right?

Frasier has also proved that Dan Butler and David Hyde Pierce are as straight as they come.

 

[WillsBabe]

He played a gay guy on Frasier once.

That totally proves it, right? Right?

Totally.

 

[Tomalak]

Patrick Stewart is not gay.

I've noticed a lot of Americans seem to confuse being British with being homosexual. We're not all gay.

Wow, I somehow never noticed the second half of your reply to me until notte_silente quoted it.

Um, no, sorry. I personally know several british people and I do NOT think british people are all gay. In fact, Out of all the british guys I can think of off the top of my head that aren't confirmed gays, Patrick Stewart is the ONLY one that I think might be gay. So... yeah. I actually have a fairly deep respect for the UK and its culture and history. Please don't try to portray me as some dumb American who thinks that anyone who doesn't act like us must not be "normal". On that note, I myself am gay, and I think I would also know the difference between being british and being what I am. Thank you very much.

Actually, I think what Tomalak said was mostly in jest. At least, it's how it came off to me.

Yes, of course it was! I'm sorry if you think I was trying to insult you, that was not the intention at all. It was a throwaway comment. Perhaps I should have added a smiley to make it clear.

 

[The Castellan]

When did Quark have a sex-change?

That's really random.

Someone posted that near the begining of this thread, so I'm only asking.

 

[barnaclelapse]

He played a gay guy on Frasier once.

That totally proves it, right? Right?

Frasier has also proved that Dan Butler and David Hyde Pierce are as straight as they come.

Well, duh.

And Gil. Let's not forget the guy who played Gil, the restaurant critic.

 

[Tom Riley]

Wow, I somehow never noticed the second half of your reply to me until notte_silente quoted it.

Um, no, sorry. I personally know several british people and I do NOT think british people are all gay. In fact, Out of all the british guys I can think of off the top of my head that aren't confirmed gays, Patrick Stewart is the ONLY one that I think might be gay. So... yeah. I actually have a fairly deep respect for the UK and its culture and history. Please don't try to portray me as some dumb American who thinks that anyone who doesn't act like us must not be "normal". On that note, I myself am gay, and I think I would also know the difference between being british and being what I am. Thank you very much.

Actually, I think what Tomalak said was mostly in jest. At least, it's how it came off to me.

Yes, of course it was! I'm sorry if you think I was trying to insult you, that was not the intention at all. It was a throwaway comment. Perhaps I should have added a smiley to make it clear.

Oh... Now I feel like an ass...

 

[Myasishchev]

I've seen ideas like this (not necessarily about homosexuality) bandied about before. I always go back to the same thought - How would/does such a society develop that REQUIRES technology to help them reproduce?

Such a concept as you suggest here is not natural since it requires technology and laboratories. What would this culture have been like in their primitive stone age days? What caused their society to decay/advance to the point where they REQUIRE artificial means to reproduce.

I figured it was probably where we're actually heading to and where Trek's human society would have headed to if not for the Eugenics War--completely artificial reproduction, and no more need for gender. Although given that so much of our psychology and society is based on attaining and maintaining sexual relationships, a genderless humanity would not be much of a humanity at all. They'd probably be a lot weirder than the J'naii.

For any idea such as the one you propose requires fleshing out, in my opinion. Maybe not in the story itself but at least in the author's mind. Determining HOW such a culture came to this method of reproduction will go a long way in developing the history and culture and personality of said species.

I am glad that they didn't just say that they'd always been asexual. Cloning doesn't work very well as an evolutionary strategy. Sexually reproducing parasites would eat them alive.

Not to derail the topic (too much) but I came to this conclusion after thinking about the Trill and their symbiotic relationship. At what point did some ancient Trill go "Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if I cut my belly open and stick this worm inside it..."

Yeah, that is pretty weird. I sort of wonder the same thing about how human use of alcohol was developed. It turns out it's more or less okay for you, but the initial discovery required someone to drink the runoff from rotting food.

I sort of figure that the parasites of the 24th century and the parasites of Trill antiquity aren't quite the same. Early parasites were probably equipped to tear into the humanoid Trill, and then direct other humanoid Trill to come down to the swamps to see the cool thing they'd found. But in likelihood the parasites lost their rending utensils due to their own evolution--over the course of a few hundred thousand, maybe a million years--once Trill society decided to embrace the life-enhancing gutworms.

Actually, now that I think about it, we don't know that they lost any ability to invasively occupy a host. Sure, they prefer antiseptic surgery undertaken by the opposably-thumbed, but I bet if left with no option a Trill symbiont would jump right through your thorax.

 

[DevilEyes]

I am glad that they didn't just say that they'd always been asexual. Cloning doesn't work very well as an evolutionary strategy. Sexually reproducing parasites would eat them alive.

I find it hard to believe in a society without sexual reproduction. However, it would be easy to depict a genderless society that reproduces sexually, you just need it to consist of hermaphrodite beings. And it's certainly already been done in other SF ("The Left Hand of Darkness" comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now).

Yeah, that is pretty weird. I sort of wonder the same thing about how human use of alcohol was developed. It turns out it's more or less okay for you, but the initial discovery required someone to drink the runoff from rotting food.

Oh, I find that very easy to imagine. Let's say that they had collected a lot of fruit to use it as food during the winter. But then some of that fruit didn't happen to be kept at the right temperature - say, maybe someone unfroze it, but then didn't eat it all at once and it was left for a few days in a relatively warm room. Then all of the sudden someone starts eating it and realizes that the taste is different... but hey, it tastes good! Different, but good! And you don't want to throw the food away as long as it's good to eat, you might go hungry later. It turns out not to be harmful, but it also turns out to have some other interesting effects, which become even more valued that the taste or the nutrition. People get a taste for alcohol and from that point on, start using the surplus fruit to produce it.

 

[FormerLurker]

^ The J'Naii were presented as sexually reproducing. They just transferred the fetus to some kind of organic incubator somehow during the process.

As for the production of alcohol, it probably had more to do with the alcoholic beverages having no parasites, unlike the putrefied water they did not yet know to boil first. Alcohol, after all, is an antiseptic. Someone probably drank something they brewed up to swab wounds with, and liked the flavor.

 

[T'Girl]

^ I just got done reading the "Little Ice Age" and leaders (Royals) during the middle ages would encourage the people in their areas to drink beer and vinegar, because the well water was contaminated with Human and animal wastes.

Alcohol, after all, is an antiseptic.

So is urine, but I'm sure someone tried fermenting that too.

On the J'Naii, I found this essay. Pretty good.
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=98166&page=11