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If Abrams thinks he knows his audience he is mistaken

I was one of those who was very much looking forward to those rumors of Malcolm Reed being gay. The character was tough enough and skilled enough and too much of a soldier to allow any insipid gay jokes anyway -- but those rumors never came true (or were they even intended in the first place?).

He was a rather posh, stiff-upper-lip type English character. Those jokes were made.

2. That the primary goal of the film series is to deliver a well-executed action/adventure story does not mean that they can't do social commentary. See The Dark Knight.
The Nolan films aren't above political commentary, though. The Ra's al-Ghul story in Batman Begins in particular is a clear allegory to the War on Terror. Both films are fairly didactic in what they're about, also, with the little ethical game the Joker plays in the second film as a prime example.
 
I think it's because the assumption, until recently, is that Demora Sulu was the product of Hikaru Sulu and an unseen wife or girlfriend, not merely an egg donor. It would be an interesting area to explore, however.
 
I was one of those who was very much looking forward to those rumors of Malcolm Reed being gay. The character was tough enough and skilled enough and too much of a soldier to allow any insipid gay jokes anyway -- but those rumors never came true (or were they even intended in the first place?).

He was a rather posh, stiff-upper-lip type English character. Those jokes were made.

Oh, I wouldn't say posh, but I definitely see your point about the stiff-upper-lip part :)

I think it's because the assumption, until recently, is that Demora Sulu was the product of Hikaru Sulu and an unseen wife or girlfriend, not merely an egg donor. It would be an interesting area to explore, however.

Oh, I definitely agree. If anything, since there's more diversity in family these days, I would be interested in seeing what the families of tomorrow look like. What we consider "abnormal" today could be normal or perhaps even traditional in the future, as long as there's a parent-child relationship.

On a side note, nobody (at least within the Trekverse) ever really questioned Beverly's abilities as a single mom with Wesley, whereas at the time of the show's production, being a single parent was a pretty big deal (like Dan Quayle Vs. "Murphy Brown"). So again, maybe today's controversies are tomorrow's norms, and that would be progressive.
 
nobody (at least within the Trekverse) ever really questioned Beverly's abilities as a single mom with Wesley

Depends on who you spoke to. Many fan parents were horrified that a single mother would take her only child on a dangerous starship for a longterm mission, especially if they didn't care for either character and would be happy to see one or both of them replaced.

And then that Bev abandoned him there to return to Earth (Season Two).

I happened to like the Crushers, but it's wrong to say that "nobody" questioned her abilities as a mother.
 
nobody (at least within the Trekverse) ever really questioned Beverly's abilities as a single mom with Wesley

Depends on who you spoke to. Many fan parents were horrified that a single mother would take her only child on a dangerous starship for a longterm mission, especially if they didn't care for either character and would be happy to see one or both of them replaced.

And then that Bev abandoned him there to return to Earth (Season Two).

I happened to like the Crushers, but it's wrong to say that "nobody" questioned her abilities as a mother.

That's why I said "within" the Trekverse, as opposed to outside of it, ie the viewers, critics, observers, and pundits. I can't recall any admiral or personnel who wondered that about Beverly.
 
That's why I said "within" the Trekverse, as opposed to outside of it, ie the viewers, critics, observers, and pundits. I can't recall any admiral or personnel who wondered that about Beverly.

Well, they wouldn't, because that was part of Roddenberry's 24th century credo.
 
That's why I said "within" the Trekverse, as opposed to outside of it, ie the viewers, critics, observers, and pundits. I can't recall any admiral or personnel who wondered that about Beverly.

Well, they wouldn't, because that was part of Roddenberry's 24th century credo.

Yep, exactly. Now I think back to Jake and Ben, and Ben caught just a bit more flack (but not much) than Beverly from the characters, but again, it wasn't a huge deal within the show, either. Today's controversies = tomorrow's norms. I imagine that in the 24th century, it's just less of a topic, perhaps as a side effect of humanity becoming more and more united and culturally diverse.
 
The difference between the Dan Quayle situation and Beverly was that Beverly's husband died in the line of duty. He wouldn't go after her. Now, if she'd had Wes outta wedlock, he'd go after her.
 
In TrekToday Abrams suggests he sees approval online*.

I laughed when I read:

“The great thing about getting a consensus because of the Internet is it allows you to really hear what the audience is feeling,”

Does he (you) not realise that queers** have been waiting for decades for an appropriate view of themselves in this future of yours, Roddenberry's and ours?

Please read my paper on this issue.

"There's Genderqueers on the Starboard Bow": The Pregnant Male in Star Trek (p 699-714)
STEPHEN KERRY
The Journal of Popular Culture
Volume 42 Issue 4

And more Bolians :bolian:

*http://www.trektoday.com/content/2009/12/abrams-identifying-with-trek-characters-and-fans/
** Please note I do not mean 'gay'.
This isn't the place to promote your paper. However, since the rest of you have turned this into a discussion about gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered individuals (assuming the latter two enter into the discussion), I'm inclined to let this thread remain open. Thank you!
 
The difference between the Dan Quayle situation and Beverly was that Beverly's husband died in the line of duty. He wouldn't go after her. Now, if she'd had Wes outta wedlock, he'd go after her.
That, and Dan Quayle was a Trekkie, so he was probably cutting them some slack. ;)
 
The difference between the Dan Quayle situation and Beverly was that Beverly's husband died in the line of duty. He wouldn't go after her. Now, if she'd had Wes outta wedlock, he'd go after her.

Oh, I don't know, I sort of feel like some fans would criticize her for not devoting a lot of time towards finding a father figure for Wesley... but again in the show, that's not a topic that's raised. (I'm also not saying that I myself would prefer Beverly to devote time towards finding Wes a step-father. This thread is probably the most though i've ever given to the Bev/Wes dynamic :) )

On a slightly different issue, whenever Beverly *does* meet a potential romantic suitor, no one seems bothered or concerned that she has a son (which is fantastic), compared to the modern mindset where dating someone who has children is looked upon as having a bit of baggage and, in some cases, counts as a strike against them.
 
I mean Abrams gave us bigoted Vulcans. Enterprise did too, but not too many good things could be said about that Trek incarnation either.

And T'Pau (and T'Pring) of TOS weren't in the slightest bit bigoted? :lol:

Not to mention DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"?
Not to mention D.C.Fontana-penned TAS "Yesteryear", canonized via a reference in TNG, and obviously a direct inspiration for ST09.
 
Don't be absurd. ST09 actually gave Uhura a personality, which is far more than TOS could say. And ST09 deliberately undermines the patriarchal image of the alpha male getting the girl -- if you'll recall, in ST09, Kirk literally never manages to hook up with anyone, while the "beta male" of the film is the one who is in a committed relationship that is clearly based on something much deeper than mere lust.

I feel like ST09 gave Uhura the personality of woman using her sexuality to climb the social ladder... on to the Enterprise. The guy she has this deep relationship with is one of her instructors at the academy. Does it make a difference who is nabbing the girl if the game is still to nab the girl? How about having a bar fight to see who gets to nab the girl. So yeah, I still think this movie was super patriarchal and heteronormative. Gender dynamics don't appear to have changed much from our time.

1. Star Trek has never been as intelligent, socially aware, or tolerant as it has liked to think of itself as being.

2. That the primary goal of the film series is to deliver a well-executed action/adventure story does not mean that they can't do social commentary. See The Dark Knight.

3. That ST09 focused on establishing the characters over social commentary does not mean it lacked intelligence.

1. I'll certainly grant you that one. Its the idea that it could live up to that promise that frustrates fans like me.

2. You're right about that too, but ST09's world view, if we actually look into it, is authoritarian, patriarchal, and all around Star Wars-ish. I don't have a problem with epic adventures for their own sake either, but I want to be able to expect more from Trek.

3. I don't feel any characters were established well in this film aside from repeating their catch phrases, and Kirk being a violent frat boy *explative*.


Because, of course, a popular film cannot be socially aware. After all, most people aren't as smart as you and I. :rolleyes:

What was that you were saying about egalitarianism?

There's the populism of the Facist/authoritarian/reactionary variety and the populism of the liberation/egalitarian/revolutionary variety, and this film has more of the former than the latter. Of course you can make a smart film with mass appeal, that's what ST has tried to do in it's best moments, but this film is cynical because it operates under the assumption that you can't. It goes for the lowest common denominator; offering titties, explosions, non-sequiter action sequences and not much else.

TOS gave us bigoted Vulcans, too. So did DS9 and VOY and ENT. Let's face it: Some Vulcans have always had chips on their shoulders about non-Vulcans, and that's been present from the first time Sarek was described as refusing to speak to Spock after he joined Starfleet in TOS.

Heck, ST09 painted Sarek in a much kinder, less bigoted light than TOS did.

I got nothin here. I've clearly been defeated here, and I withdraw my earlier comments. I suppose its the fact that they're depicted as violent bullies that made it jump out at me. That just seemed unbelievable. Thanks for responding to my posts! :techman:
 
...These two sentences are on some level in direct contradiction to each other (it can't be the primary focus, but it should be blatant?), which only further illustrates my point about how it's going to be tricky to include someone without making it seem forced or as if it were catering, as opposed to being an actual out-and-out worthy character trait. If it comes across as blatant and deliberate, then you add in condescension and preachiness, and that never goes well; it actually increases the divide in dialogue.

I'm not going to say that Trek hasn't been classically biased against the LGBTQ population, but on the other hand, who's to say that Ensign So-and-So in the back there isn't at least bi/queer/fluid?

Thats just it. The heterosexuality of main characters was always blatant and deliberate, and wasn't treated as the primary focus of their character. I don't think any condescension or preachiness would be needed. If you wanted to do an episode about institutional homophobia or heteronormativity and you tried to make your LGBTQ character the driving force in that plot, then condescension and preachiness would definatly be an issue, though I think the recent ST PII Blood and Fire adaptation did things rather well. Whenever Trek has tried to address LGBTQ oppression before they've stumbled all over it because they make a big deal out of it, and think it to death instead of treating it like they've treated everything else.
 
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