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If Abrams thinks he knows his audience he is mistaken

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In TrekToday Abrams suggests he sees approval online*.

I laughed when I read:

“The great thing about getting a consensus because of the Internet is it allows you to really hear what the audience is feeling,”

Does he (you) not realise that queers** have been waiting for decades for an appropriate view of themselves in this future of yours, Roddenberry's and ours?

Please read my paper on this issue.

"There's Genderqueers on the Starboard Bow": The Pregnant Male in Star Trek (p 699-714)
STEPHEN KERRY
The Journal of Popular Culture (Edited by Peach Wookiee)
Volume 42 Issue 4

And more Bolians :bolian:

*http://www.trektoday.com/content/2009/12/abrams-identifying-with-trek-characters-and-fans/
** Please note I do not mean 'gay'.
 
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Probably better off in the Trek XI forum.

Is it possible for you to summarise your article? It requires registration.
 
I think that Abrams gave us an ST that is more heteronormative and patriarchal than anything we've seen before, even the original series. So if you were hoping to see any LBGTQ characters in ST you can just lose that hope right now. Abrams "has maintained a cadre of creative talent for his various projects, noting that he is "a magnet for like-minded creatives who share his professional DNA: hard-working, prolific anti-elitists who revel in pop culture and strive to deliver highly commercial fare with flair." (http://trekmovie.com/2009/10/16/orci-kurtzman-lindelof-talk-abrams-star-trek-collaboration/). So don't hold your breath waiting for anything egalitarian, thought provoking, controversial, or relevant to come from these guys. There's a SCI FI literary review at http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/ that you might be interested in.
 
On the other hand, the majority of the film takes place on a starship, and every time we see a crewmember, they're hard at work at their stations, in the midst of an emergency, so I don't see how any forms of PDA or anything indicative of the relationship spectrum, hetero or LGBTQ, could be shown in the back without seeming forced.

The only times we see people engaged in that sort of behavior, it involves three characters who are classically hetero anyway. That's not to say that Kirk, Spock, or Uhura could fall under any other side of the spectrum, but they're traditionally defined as hetero. And it could be that Gaila herself isn't strictly hetero either, but where else in the film are you going to hint that without disrupting the story?

Which brings us to the age old question: how do you show inclusion without making it seem forced and simply for the sake OF inclusion? I understand that TNG was supposed to have at least one gay couple in the background of Ten-Forward, but it was axed by Berman. It would be a cameo, so it wouldn't really have affected the story that much, but since it would be normal to everyone in the Trekverse, no one would pay mind to it. Along those lines, the bar in Iowa, or two cadets flirting in the academy's front lawn, would've been good to show something like that, considering that there was very little time for romance after Kirk's test.

The very last thing I'd want with a tolerant Trek is to have an LGBTQ character simply because they're LGBTQ. Make it part of their character, but don't make it the primary focus of that character (like Worf with honor, Neelix with his pluckiness, Quark with his greediness, etc etc).
 
I understand that TNG was supposed to have at least one gay couple in the background of Ten-Forward, but it was axed by Berman.

David Gerrold's "Blood and Fire" was shelved due to the interference of solicitor Leonard Maizlish, who had quite a bit of influence over Gene Roddenberry during Season One of TNG.

Under Berman's watch we had episodes of TNG, DS9 and ENT that did attempt to do stories that addressed gender identification and AIDS issues, such as "The Host", "The Outcast", "Rejoined", "Unexpected" and "Stigma".
 
In TrekToday Abrams suggests he sees approval online*.
Which is correct.

There's also a lot of criticism, but by and large the film's about as well accepted by the fans that one could expect.

Abrams "has maintained a cadre of creative talent for his various projects, noting that he is "a magnet for like-minded creatives who share his professional DNA: hard-working, prolific anti-elitists who revel in pop culture and strive to deliver highly commercial fare with flair."
This is also true. Orci and Kurtzman have hinted that the next movie may be more of an idea movie ('where space itself is the enemy' I think were Orci's words) but even if so I think this era of Trek is about, first and foremost, well delivered action-adventure stories.

Even if a non-heterosexual character is included in the movies, I doubt it'd be done in any way that is integral to the storyline. It'd be a little like nuBSG; off-hand elements introduced to relatively minor characters with minimal story impact.
 
Was going to quote people but because I agree with Kegg and Cyke (and while not disagree with Therin but think those are particularly preachy episodes) I hope we don't get some song and dance about g/b/t people on any new Trek show/movie. We have
imo missed their boat and are now in an age of gay sitcoms and dramas that if we have any such characters it needs to be natural and normal.
As it stands we know that each of the regular cast is hetro (disregard any slash-fic you may have read) incorporate them into the background as others have suggested but if you were to actively change a characters persuasion we would be dealing with a different character and thus not a reinterpretation but a new series entirely.
 
Under Berman's watch we had episodes of TNG, DS9 and ENT that did attempt to do stories that addressed gender identification and AIDS issues, such as "The Host", "The Outcast", "Rejoined", "Unexpected" and "Stigma".

Unfortunately, those efforts were all pedestrian polemics.
'Pedestrian' is too kind a word for "Stigma" and "Unexpected", but quite true for the other examples. I think Jonathan Frakes is right that "The Outcast" would have worked better had Soren been played by a man.
 
No no that's my fault and I accept that you merely put those out there.
I just don't like thouse episodes, especially stigmata for the mind f*ck it creates both internally and externally as a metaphor. I apologise.
 
The very last thing I'd want with a tolerant Trek is to have an LGBTQ character simply because they're LGBTQ. Make it part of their character, but don't make it the primary focus of that character (like Worf with honor, Neelix with his pluckiness, Quark with his greediness, etc etc).
I think on some level putting an LGBTQ character in deliberately and blatantly is warranted since trek has pretended these folks don't exist for five series now. I agree it shouldn't be the primary focus of that character. But really, as I was saying before, the era of intelligence, social commentary, and tolerance in Star Trek is over. You can't make make a deliberate attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator (like XI), and make a good social commentary at the same time. I mean Abrams gave us bigoted Vulcans. Enterprise did too, but not too many good things could be said about that Trek incarnation either.
 
I just want a steamy man-on-man love scene in the next film. We had the Orion chick and Uhura flashing their underwear, and Uhura making out with Spock.

Now Kirk in his pants was a noble start, but let's see him forced to kiss Chekov by an omnipotent alien pretending to be a Greek deity. It's the Star Trek way.
 
The very last thing I'd want with a tolerant Trek is to have an LGBTQ character simply because they're LGBTQ. Make it part of their character, but don't make it the primary focus of that character (like Worf with honor, Neelix with his pluckiness, Quark with his greediness, etc etc).
I think on some level putting an LGBTQ character in deliberately and blatantly is warranted since trek has pretended these folks don't exist for five series now. I agree it shouldn't be the primary focus of that character.

Truth be told...

I think on some level putting an LGBTQ character in deliberately and blatantly is warranted since trek has pretended these folks don't exist for five series now. I agree it shouldn't be the primary focus of that character.

...These two sentences are on some level in direct contradiction to each other (it can't be the primary focus, but it should be blatant?), which only further illustrates my point about how it's going to be tricky to include someone without making it seem forced or as if it were catering, as opposed to being an actual out-and-out worthy character trait. If it comes across as blatant and deliberate, then you add in condescension and preachiness, and that never goes well; it actually increases the divide in dialogue.

I'm not going to say that Trek hasn't been classically biased against the LGBTQ population, but on the other hand, who's to say that Ensign So-and-So in the back there isn't at least bi/queer/fluid? I've always liked that thought, that on a starship, maybe a tenth of any given crew were LGBTQ, it's just that work/duty/Starfleet came first, just as it would in real life (a gay-activist CEO is a CEO first, activist second, gay man third, for example). Sure, that doesn't explain the discrepancy amongst the senior staffs of any one show, but it doesn't preclude any possibilities, either; just because we haven't seen Riker romantically involved with a man doesn't mean that he's never been with a man, it could very well be that we just assume so. If a gay angle is pursued that way, I would think that would be the best way to do it for two reasons: 1. It sends a message that people who you think you know aren't exactly what you expect them to be in positive ways (a mindset which is creeping more and more into the modern public discussion thanks to recent LGBTQ advancements) and 2. new adventures always means finding out new things about the characters you love.

I was one of those who was very much looking forward to those rumors of Malcolm Reed being gay. The character was tough enough and skilled enough and too much of a soldier to allow any insipid gay jokes anyway -- but those rumors never came true (or were they even intended in the first place?). Yet, with Trek's record of showing diversity, I'm almost thankful that there hadn't been many non-hetero showings, or else it really would have been the elephant in the room as opposed to just another character trait like Troi's love of chocolate. Hell, with Trek's habit of showing aliens to an almost stereotypical level, there's a chance that Trek having more prominent LGBTQ people would actually set those advancements back.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure there are quite a few people (including academics) who don't think Trek XI caters to the lowest common denominator. But then, if you want argue that something should be inclusive, you don't talk down to people in the process, either. Trek should always been about access, not superiority.
 
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I just want a steamy man-on-man love scene in the next film. We had the Orion chick and Uhura flashing their underwear, and Uhura making out with Spock.

Now Kirk in his pants was a noble start, but let's see him forced to kiss Chekov by an omnipotent alien pretending to be a Greek deity. It's the Star Trek way.
"Course heeading, keptin?"
"My bedroom, Mr Chekov."
 
I just want a steamy man-on-man love scene in the next film. We had the Orion chick and Uhura flashing their underwear, and Uhura making out with Spock.

Now Kirk in his pants was a noble start, but let's see him forced to kiss Chekov by an omnipotent alien pretending to be a Greek deity. It's the Star Trek way.
"Course heeading, keptin?"
"My bedroom, Mr Chekov."

Is it bad to say that I had an ex who looks kind of like Anton Yelchin? Oh, I was completely projecting my ex onto the film.

Especially when he ran around yelling "I can do dat!"
 
Cyke101 said:
a gay-activist CEO is a CEO first, activist second, gay man third

Wow, he sounds like a fun date. :p

Anyway, I always thought making the new Sulu gay would be a nice homage to George Takei.
 
I think that Abrams gave us an ST that is more heteronormative and patriarchal than anything we've seen before, even the original series.

Don't be absurd. ST09 actually gave Uhura a personality, which is far more than TOS could say. And ST09 deliberately undermines the patriarchal image of the alpha male getting the girl -- if you'll recall, in ST09, Kirk literally never manages to hook up with anyone, while the "beta male" of the film is the one who is in a committed relationship that is clearly based on something much deeper than mere lust.

But really, as I was saying before, the era of intelligence, social commentary, and tolerance in Star Trek is over.

1. Star Trek has never been as intelligent, socially aware, or tolerant as it has liked to think of itself as being.

2. That the primary goal of the film series is to deliver a well-executed action/adventure story does not mean that they can't do social commentary. See The Dark Knight.

3. That ST09 focused on establishing the characters over social commentary does not mean it lacked intelligence.

You can't make make a deliberate attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator (like XI), and make a good social commentary at the same time.

Because, of course, a popular film cannot be socially aware. After all, most people aren't as smart as you and I. :rolleyes:

What was that you were saying about egalitarianism?

I mean Abrams gave us bigoted Vulcans.

TOS gave us bigoted Vulcans, too. So did DS9 and VOY and ENT. Let's face it: Some Vulcans have always had chips on their shoulders about non-Vulcans, and that's been present from the first time Sarek was described as refusing to speak to Spock after he joined Starfleet in TOS.

Heck, ST09 painted Sarek in a much kinder, less bigoted light than TOS did.
 
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