Chakotay and 7 of 9, why?

[DevilEyes]

And is it equally unrealistic to expect Kirk to not have sex with a slave who has no choice in the matter? Who offered herself because her master told her to?

And besides, this isn't like the Navy - they may be locked up on a ship, but it's a ship with 400 men and women and recreational facilities and so on and so on. Not a bad way to be locked up.

And anyway, in your interest in allowing Trek personnel the right to behave like sexual adults, you're combining two different things, Exodus. Consensual sex is one thing - having sex with a slave girl is another.

In our time that would be called a Hooker, and Naval men had sex with them too.

Um...no. In our time, that is called a victim of sex trafficking. Look it up. And having sex with them is not considered acceptable in the 21st century. In fact, it is punishable by law. It also has nothing to do with sexual freedom. Unless you are going to argue that sexual freedom means that you have the right to rape somebody, and this is basically no different from rape.

 

[exodus]

Darlin', I really don't know what in the heck your going on about. You're talking like this stuff is real and what happens on the show affects society in some way.

Oh, really? This from a guy who has gone on at some length about the terrible things that Voyager did to the indigenous peoples of North America?

If you can get indignant about that - which I don't blame you for in the least because it was wrong - please don't dismiss my concerns (about another extremely important issue, BTW) in that offhand way. I don't believe I've ever done that to you.

And please don't call me "darlin'." It's OK if we're joking around but when we're having a protracted disagreement, it comes across as kind of patronizing, frankly. I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

Yes, it's just a disagreement, not a fight.
What are you so upset about?
We're just having a debate, I'm not attacking you.
You asked me questions, I answered them honestly.
What did I do wrong?

Native American's are a real culture not fictional people made up for TV and having questionable sex on a space ship. Even during that debate, I don't recall ever taking anythng said to heart as to bring it up again in another post.

You did dismiss me in your charming reply: "How nice for you." Just because I said it was fiction and don't feel as passionately about it. Why is that so wrong? I guess I should be glad we aren't debating politics.

So I'll kindly end this, so you can ponder that for a bit.

 

[StardustSteph]

I don't think there is really an argument here. Exodus isn't arguing for prostitution and sex slaves. He/she is just saying they understand the concept in regards to the Trek Universe He used a great examples.

Because in the 24th century Trek universe it is acceptable, just like Riza, a Federation controlled planet of hedoistic pleasure is acceptable. Just like Seven's catsuit is acceptable. Just like Bashir & Leeta have sex with other people before actually breaking up is acceptable. Just like Neelix having sex with a Klingon in Tuvok's quarters was accepted. They're telling you it is right in front of your face that sexual freedom is normal in their universe, they tolerate it & sometimes engage in it.

I wouldn't get all upset Kate, I don't think they are challenging your views on the subject, just trying to explain to you how in the Trek Universe the view on relationships is different.

 

[exodus]

I don't think there is really an argument here. Exodus isn't arguing for prostitution and sex slaves. He/she is just saying they understand the concept in regards to the Trek Universe He used a great examples.

Because in the 24th century Trek universe it is acceptable, just like Riza, a Federation controlled planet of hedoistic pleasure is acceptable. Just like Seven's catsuit is acceptable. Just like Bashir & Leeta have sex with other people before actually breaking up is acceptable. Just like Neelix having sex with a Klingon in Tuvok's quarters was accepted. They're telling you it is right in front of your face that sexual freedom is normal in their universe, they tolerate it & sometimes engage in it.

I wouldn't get all upset Kate, I don't think they are challenging your views on the subject, just trying to explain to you how in the Trek Universe the view on relationships is different.

Forgive me if you don't believe but: GOD BLESS YOU!!!!


That's EXACTLY what I'm saying!!

 

[Red Ranger]

Even Kirk's "womanizing" was exaggerated -- he onlly slept with a small number of the women he was attracted to during the TOS run. I only recall two times they showed he actually had sex with women -- Deela (puttng his boots back on) and Miramanee (she was pregnant). Most of the other times it was flirtations (Marta, Lenore Karidian), or he fell in love but it wasn't consummated (Edith Keeler, Rayna, and Elaan).

RR

And the slave girl in "Bread and Circuses" - he definitely had sex with her, which is something that he really shouldn't have done. She might have been offering herself to him, but she was clearly made to do that by her masters.

There's also "Wolf in the Fold", in which Kirk, as well as McCoy and Scotty, talk about going to the planet to look for women. This is the omly episode that actually establishes Kirk (and not just Kirk) as a "horndog".

"Bread and Circuses" is the one I always think of. I mean, that was so so so wrong, and he did it so so so so SO casually.

I agree that Kirk didn't have random sex allllll the time, but I think those of us who consider him not all that choosy - and something of a tomcat - have a certain amount of evidence on our side, too.

And some of the relationships that you list, RNR, you say weren't consumated but we really don't know. I'm thinking of Elaan here, for one - oh and another was what's-her-name, "the Captain's woman," in the Mirror Universe episode.

And the slave girl in "Bread and Circuses" - he definitely had sex with her, which is something that he really shouldn't have done. She might have been offering herself to him, but she was clearly made to do that by her masters.

There's also "Wolf in the Fold", in which Kirk, as well as McCoy and Scotty, talk about going to the planet to look for women. This is the omly episode that actually establishes Kirk (and not just Kirk) as a "horndog".

"Bread and Circuses" is the one I always think of. I mean, that was so so so wrong, and he did it so so so so SO casually.

I agree that Kirk didn't have random sex allllll the time, but I think those of us who consider him not all that choosy - and something of a tomcat - have a certain amount of evidence on our side, too.

Starfleet is an equivalent of the "space navy". So yes, having a different women in a new port of call after being at "sea" so long with just your crewmen is common. Being "enlightened" people doesn't mean they have to be monks.

Seriously, you really expect a grown adult to stay locked up on ship for months on end with no companionship and still remain celebate when they come to a port of call? That's completely unrealistic.

To JustKate: I had forgotten about Drusilla. I give Kirk a pass there as he was in a desperate situation, and he figured, hey, I'm going to die anyway, why deprive myself of what may be the company of a woman, albeit a slave, for the last time? Stress-related lapse in judgment. But I don't think Kirk had time to make it with Marlena, the Captain's Woman.

To exodus's point, our standards for sex, romance, and relationships are probably considered quaint by the 24th century, the same way we think of Victorian England's mores as out-of-date. Frankly, the Voyager crew should've been looking for more nookie, as they would be stuck there for years. Fighting blue balls would be a medical necessity -- I can see the Doctor passing out that prescription.

RR

 

[exodus]

And the slave girl in "Bread and Circuses" - he definitely had sex with her, which is something that he really shouldn't have done. She might have been offering herself to him, but she was clearly made to do that by her masters.

There's also "Wolf in the Fold", in which Kirk, as well as McCoy and Scotty, talk about going to the planet to look for women. This is the omly episode that actually establishes Kirk (and not just Kirk) as a "horndog".

"Bread and Circuses" is the one I always think of. I mean, that was so so so wrong, and he did it so so so so SO casually.

I agree that Kirk didn't have random sex allllll the time, but I think those of us who consider him not all that choosy - and something of a tomcat - have a certain amount of evidence on our side, too.

And some of the relationships that you list, RNR, you say weren't consumated but we really don't know. I'm thinking of Elaan here, for one - oh and another was what's-her-name, "the Captain's woman," in the Mirror Universe episode.

"Bread and Circuses" is the one I always think of. I mean, that was so so so wrong, and he did it so so so so SO casually.

I agree that Kirk didn't have random sex allllll the time, but I think those of us who consider him not all that choosy - and something of a tomcat - have a certain amount of evidence on our side, too.

Starfleet is an equivalent of the "space navy". So yes, having a different women in a new port of call after being at "sea" so long with just your crewmen is common. Being "enlightened" people doesn't mean they have to be monks.

Seriously, you really expect a grown adult to stay locked up on ship for months on end with no companionship and still remain celebate when they come to a port of call? That's completely unrealistic.

To JustKate: I had forgotten about Drusilla. I give Kirk a pass there as he was in a desperate situation, and he figured, hey, I'm going to die anyway, why deprive myself of what may be the company of a woman, albeit a slave, for the last time? Stress-related lapse in judgment. But I don't think Kirk had time to make it with Marlena, the Captain's Woman.

To exodus's point, our standards for sex, romance, and relationships are probably considered quaint by the 24th century, the same way we think of Victorian England's mores as out-of-date. Frankly, the Voyager crew should've been looking for more nookie, as they would be stuck there for years. Fighting blue balls would be a medical necessity -- I can see the Doctor passing out that prescription.

RR

You're a sick man, Red.


That's why I love ya.

 

[Amaris]

I think it would be sweet for Seven and Chakotay to be together. They're cute together and I think they had chemistry.

J.

 

[kimc]

You choose not to accept it because your wrestling with your own morals about it, instead of serperating your own beliefs from what is just a TV show. The foundations of society aren't going to crumble because Kirk has sex with a hooker.

Let's not make assumptions about why some things bother some posters...

Guys, there are women on the board who find watching another woman being sexually exploited upsetting and it could be for any number of reasons. You may not understand it but at least try to respect it.

As for me I consider myself a Kirk fan but find the episode under discussion an unfortunate moment for the character.

Anyway, while I never thought I'd say this let's go back to discussing C7. Yes, hell hath frozen over...

 

[JustKate]

I don't think there is really an argument here. Exodus isn't arguing for prostitution and sex slaves. He/she is just saying they understand the concept in regards to the Trek Universe He used a great examples.

Um, StardustSteph, have you seen the episode of TOS that I've referenced here? If not, perhaps you should review it. It's called "Bread and Circuses," and it's about a planet that still practices slavery. You know, people who are bought and sold like cattle? And one of the bad guys "lends" one of his slave girls to Kirk to allow Kirk one last night "as a man."

She can't say "no." She's a slave. She's there, with Kirk, because her master told her to be there. She has sex with Kirk because she's been ordered to please him - I think that's a quote.

So the situation isn't really very much like those "great examples" that Exodus gives. We aren't talking about fun, casual, hedonistic sex. We are talking about a slave. I realize that Starfleet is fictional, but do you really think they'd have a more lenient attitude toward marketing sentient beings than we do now?

I'm sure you're right that Exodus doesn't actually approve of sexual slavery. He has angered me very much with his flippancy, but I'll readily concede that. But what he's saying here is nonetheless outrageous, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Yes, it's just a disagreement, not a fight.
What are you so upset about?
We're just having a debate, I'm not attacking you.
You asked me questions, I answered them honestly.
What did I do wrong?

Native American's are a real culture not fictional people made up for TV and having questionable sex on a space ship. Even during that debate, I don't recall ever taking anythng said to heart as to bring it up again in another post.

You did dismiss me in your charming reply: "How nice for you." Just because I said it was fiction and don't feel as passionately about it. Why is that so wrong? I guess I should be glad we aren't debating politics.

So I'll kindly end this, so you can ponder that for a bit.

As for you, Exodus, yes, you were kind. You dismissed me and my concerns very kindly, with a metaphorical pat on the head, saying, "There, there, darlin'. Don't be upset. It's just TV show."

You're absolutely right that the slave girl isn't real, and that Native Americans are. But you know, the Native Americans on VOY aren't real, either. They aren't real people, and they aren't even a real tribe. They are a make-believe tribe that lived on a make-believe, alien planet. It's all make believe.

So why does it bother you that they were portrayed so clumsily and badly? I mean, it's TV show. It's not real. Could it be that this piss-poor portrayal bothered you because you suspected - quite rightly, I think - that it indicated a lack of respect for Native American cultures on the part of TPTB? Or at the very least an unpardonable ignorance, perhaps?

And yet, you pretend to be amazed that I am equally dismayed to find that TPTB - and Kirk - seem to have an ignorance just as unpardonable about the plight of women who can't say "no." Huh.

And why you would take my very real concerns - because although the slave isn't real, the problem is - and try to turn them into a joke?

I don't know if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just can't bear to admit that perhaps you erred in some of your statements, or if you just want to annoy me. If it's the latter, it worked.

I have lost a great deal of respect for you. As I told Steph, I know perfectly well that you aren't in favor of sexual slavery. You're not a bad person. But when it comes to handling criticism, well, you're not very good at it.

And it's also apparent that, at least tonight, you choose to pretend that just because an injustice occurs in a fictional world, it doesn't matter. Try to remember that next time a piece of fiction angers you.

Which it will, you know.

Ponder that for a bit.

And thanks, Kimc. I appreciate your understanding and indulgence. Exodus is of course absolutely wrong that I am "wrestling with my own morals." On the subject of sexual slavery, my morals are absolutely clear - no wrestling is necessary.

And with that, I'll let everybody get back to their nice discussion about Janeway/Chakotay vs. Chakotay/Seven. Sorry for the diversion. In fact, I'm really sorry.

 

[kimc]

And thanks, Kimc. I appreciate your understanding. Exodus is of course absolutely wrong that I am "wrestling with my own morals." On the subject of sexual slavery, my morals are absolutely clear - no wrestling necessary.

And with that, I'll let everybody get back to their nice discussion about Janeway/Chakotay vs. Chakotay/Seven. Sorry for the diversion. In fact, I'm really sorry.

Not a problem. Hopefully you guys can work something out via pms.

And now - though it galls me to say it - back to discussing C7.

 

[Red Ranger]

"Bread and Circuses" is the one I always think of. I mean, that was so so so wrong, and he did it so so so so SO casually.

I agree that Kirk didn't have random sex allllll the time, but I think those of us who consider him not all that choosy - and something of a tomcat - have a certain amount of evidence on our side, too.

And some of the relationships that you list, RNR, you say weren't consumated but we really don't know. I'm thinking of Elaan here, for one - oh and another was what's-her-name, "the Captain's woman," in the Mirror Universe episode.

Starfleet is an equivalent of the "space navy". So yes, having a different women in a new port of call after being at "sea" so long with just your crewmen is common. Being "enlightened" people doesn't mean they have to be monks.

Seriously, you really expect a grown adult to stay locked up on ship for months on end with no companionship and still remain celebate when they come to a port of call? That's completely unrealistic.

To JustKate: I had forgotten about Drusilla. I give Kirk a pass there as he was in a desperate situation, and he figured, hey, I'm going to die anyway, why deprive myself of what may be the company of a woman, albeit a slave, for the last time? Stress-related lapse in judgment. But I don't think Kirk had time to make it with Marlena, the Captain's Woman.

To exodus's point, our standards for sex, romance, and relationships are probably considered quaint by the 24th century, the same way we think of Victorian England's mores as out-of-date. Frankly, the Voyager crew should've been looking for more nookie, as they would be stuck there for years. Fighting blue balls would be a medical necessity -- I can see the Doctor passing out that prescription.

RR

You're a sick man, Red.


That's why I love ya.

I know, I try, man! But seriously, those crewmembers must've been bursting! No holodeck fantasy could satisfy, I'm sure. -- RR

 

[Timewalker]

alexander was mentioned in the thread. he joined the rotarran when he was 8 years old.

I find it hard to believe that Klingons age that fast. Alexander was just a victim of SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome).

Regarding Seven and Chakotay... I found the holodeck version of that relationship tolerable, as Seven was experimenting. I wish that either the "Endgame" crap had not happened, or else it had been written as more of her holodeck activities.

I wouldn't have minded seeing Seven with the Doctor.

Actually, I think if I were writing a romance for Seven, I would have killed off Tuvok's wife and tried pairing Seven with Tuvok. Sure, the age difference would be even more than it was with Seven and Chakotay, but they would have been more compatible in terms of intellectual abilities and sociability.

In the fanfic I've read lately, there's a hilarious story where Janeway and Chakotay have sex, discover Janeway is pregnant, get married, and end up having triplets... and every time Chakotay starts blathering about some "story among my people" or utters "A-koo-chi-moy-a..." Janeway yells at him to "SHUT UP!!!"

 

[kes7]

In the fanfic I've read lately, there's a hilarious story where Janeway and Chakotay have sex, discover Janeway is pregnant, get married, and end up having triplets... and every time Chakotay starts blathering about some "story among my people" or utters "A-koo-chi-moy-a..." Janeway yells at him to "SHUT UP!!!"

Where? I could use a giggle.

 

[Timewalker]

In the fanfic I've read lately, there's a hilarious story where Janeway and Chakotay have sex, discover Janeway is pregnant, get married, and end up having triplets... and every time Chakotay starts blathering about some "story among my people" or utters "A-koo-chi-moy-a..." Janeway yells at him to "SHUT UP!!!"

Where? I could use a giggle.

And Baby Makes Five and the sequel The Symbols of Our Love

Enjoy - they're wonderfully funny!

 

[kes7]

In the fanfic I've read lately, there's a hilarious story where Janeway and Chakotay have sex, discover Janeway is pregnant, get married, and end up having triplets... and every time Chakotay starts blathering about some "story among my people" or utters "A-koo-chi-moy-a..." Janeway yells at him to "SHUT UP!!!"

Where? I could use a giggle.

And Baby Makes Five and the sequel The Symbols of Our Love

Enjoy - they're wonderfully funny!

Three meter pole! OMG!

-k7, easily amused this morning

(Although seriously? They didn't KNOW about the triplets? B'Elanna knew about future curvature of the spine, but Kathryn dind't know she was pregnant with THREE KIDS? Ah, well, I'll just enjoy all the funny lines and try not to think about it too much.)

ETA -- those were hilarious.

 

[Timewalker]

Where? I could use a giggle.

And Baby Makes Five and the sequel The Symbols of Our Love

Enjoy - they're wonderfully funny!

Three meter pole! OMG!

-k7, easily amused this morning

(Although seriously? They didn't KNOW about the triplets? B'Elanna knew about future curvature of the spine, but Kathryn dind't know she was pregnant with THREE KIDS? Ah, well, I'll just enjoy all the funny lines and try not to think about it too much.)

ETA -- those were hilarious.

Glad you enjoyed them!

As for not knowing about the triplets, all I can suggest is that Janeway is a Starship Captain, not a mathematician...

 

[exodus]

I don't think there is really an argument here. Exodus isn't arguing for prostitution and sex slaves. He/she is just saying they understand the concept in regards to the Trek Universe He used a great examples.

Um, StardustSteph, have you seen the episode of TOS that I've referenced here? If not, perhaps you should review it. It's called "Bread and Circuses," and it's about a planet that still practices slavery. You know, people who are bought and sold like cattle? And one of the bad guys "lends" one of his slave girls to Kirk to allow Kirk one last night "as a man."

She can't say "no." She's a slave. She's there, with Kirk, because her master told her to be there. She has sex with Kirk because she's been ordered to please him - I think that's a quote.

So the situation isn't really very much like those "great examples" that Exodus gives. We aren't talking about fun, casual, hedonistic sex. We are talking about a slave. I realize that Starfleet is fictional, but do you really think they'd have a more lenient attitude toward marketing sentient beings than we do now?

I'm sure you're right that Exodus doesn't actually approve of sexual slavery. He has angered me very much with his flippancy, but I'll readily concede that. But what he's saying here is nonetheless outrageous, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

Yes, it's just a disagreement, not a fight.
What are you so upset about?
We're just having a debate, I'm not attacking you.
You asked me questions, I answered them honestly.
What did I do wrong?

Native American's are a real culture not fictional people made up for TV and having questionable sex on a space ship. Even during that debate, I don't recall ever taking anythng said to heart as to bring it up again in another post.

You did dismiss me in your charming reply: "How nice for you." Just because I said it was fiction and don't feel as passionately about it. Why is that so wrong? I guess I should be glad we aren't debating politics.

So I'll kindly end this, so you can ponder that for a bit.

As for you, Exodus, yes, you were kind. You dismissed me and my concerns very kindly, with a metaphorical pat on the head, saying, "There, there, darlin'. Don't be upset. It's just TV show."

You're absolutely right that the slave girl isn't real, and that Native Americans are. But you know, the Native Americans on VOY aren't real, either. They aren't real people, and they aren't even a real tribe. They are a make-believe tribe that lived on a make-believe, alien planet. It's all make believe.

So why does it bother you that they were portrayed so clumsily and badly? I mean, it's TV show. It's not real. Could it be that this piss-poor portrayal bothered you because you suspected - quite rightly, I think - that it indicated a lack of respect for Native American cultures on the part of TPTB? Or at the very least an unpardonable ignorance, perhaps?

And yet, you pretend to be amazed that I am equally dismayed to find that TPTB - and Kirk - seem to have an ignorance just as unpardonable about the plight of women who can't say "no." Huh.

And why you would take my very real concerns - because although the slave isn't real, the problem is - and try to turn them into a joke?

I don't know if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just can't bear to admit that perhaps you erred in some of your statements, or if you just want to annoy me. If it's the latter, it worked.

I have lost a great deal of respect for you. As I told Steph, I know perfectly well that you aren't in favor of sexual slavery. You're not a bad person. But when it comes to handling criticism, well, you're not very good at it.

And it's also apparent that, at least tonight, you choose to pretend that just because an injustice occurs in a fictional world, it doesn't matter. Try to remember that next time a piece of fiction angers you.

Which it will, you know.

Ponder that for a bit.

And thanks, Kimc. I appreciate your understanding and indulgence. Exodus is of course absolutely wrong that I am "wrestling with my own morals." On the subject of sexual slavery, my morals are absolutely clear - no wrestling is necessary.

And with that, I'll let everybody get back to their nice discussion about Janeway/Chakotay vs. Chakotay/Seven. Sorry for the diversion. In fact, I'm really sorry.

I'm very sorry seperating the real world from fiction is very confusing and frustrating for you.

 

[JustKate]

I wasn't trying to wound your self esteem, Exodus. Jeez. Why would I? I was trying to make you understand something important, but clearly you're not interested.

And BTW, all the other posters didn't understand "the point" you were trying to make. They just don't want to get in the middle of a disagreement. If you choose to take that as a victory, fine.

 

[exodus]

I wasn't trying to wound your self esteem, Exodus. Jeez. Why would I? I was trying to make you understand something important, but clearly you're not interested.

And BTW, all the other posters didn't understand "the point" you were trying to make. They just don't want to get in the middle of a disagreement. If you choose to take that as a victory, fine.

You can believe whatever you choose.

..as you once again dismiss the opinions of Red Ranger & StardustSteph but whatever.

 

[JustKate]

As can you.

Edit: I see you edited after I posted, so I guess I'd better too. I didn't dismiss the opinions of StardustSteph - I specifically addressed those concerns in post #89. As for RR, he and I have talked via PM, and in any case, he rather carefully avoided getting in the middle here, I'd say - and who can blame him? So I didn't "dismiss" anybody as far as I know.